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BP are the focus of the mob's fury and the US Government were today looking at criminal charges for the individual person(s) responsible.
My Problem with it is that:
- BP has a 65 percent stake in the project, with partners Anadarko Petroleum Corp. and Mitsui & Co. owning the remainder.
- The Wellhead that blew came from US Contractors who were obliged to be policed by US Government Officials in their qualiy control.
- The Rig employs US Citizens.
So pretty much most of the responsibility for this will fall on US Government Officials, Workers, and Subcontractors (all of whom are responsible for the other Rigs currently in the gulf when/if they go boom).
I was wondering where the US Government were planning to go with this? Are they thinking Hey lets liquidate BPs Global assets - we can use the money to Pay off the 7 trillion debt?
There was a story yesterday on NPR that survivors from the explosion said there was an argument the day of where BP wanted to skip using heavy mud and instead use sea water to 'speed up the process' and that the Trans-Ocean crew pointed out it was against safety procedures. The BP representative said it did not matter, that is how it was going to be.
I do not know if this report was confirmed, but that would seem pretty damning to BP.
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BP are the focus of the mob's fury and the US Government were today looking at criminal charges for the individual person(s) responsible.
My Problem with it is that:
- BP has a 65 percent stake in the project, with partners Anadarko Petroleum Corp. and Mitsui & Co. owning the remainder.
- The Wellhead that blew came from US Contractors who were obliged to be policed by US Government Officials in their qualiy control.
- The Rig employs US Citizens.
So pretty much most of the responsibility for this will fall on US Government Officials, Workers, and Subcontractors (all of whom are responsible for the other Rigs currently in the gulf when/if they go boom).
I was wondering where the US Government were planning to go with this? Are they thinking Hey lets liquidate BPs Global assets - we can use the money to Pay off the 7 trillion debt?
Yeah I'm sorry, I'm not saying that the government doesn't have some responsibility in and of the fact that they regulate this stuff, but claiming it's the governments fault or responsibility is BS.
I work in the aviation business, I know what a pain in the ass the FAA is. They inspect us and check for safety violations. That doesn't mean that there aren't a dozen ways, I could circumvent the FAA to slip in shoddy parts, allow for poor maintenance, and lead to a disasterous crash. Then I could try and let the blame fall on the FAA because their job is to regulate and prevent that kind of thing. BS
Now does that mean that BP is solely responsible for the disaster, no, those other companies probably do have a responsibility as well, and the government does have some blame to share as well.
But with BP having several 1000 egregious willful safety violations on record (which is why the government shares some blame as they weren't working harder to penalize and prevent) its frankly nuts to say that BPs hands aren't heavily weighed down with the blame.
Nuts.
I have a novel idea. Let's NOT worry about who to blame. At least, not right now. Let's stop the leak and clean up the mess. We can deal with blame at our convenience afterwards. Or to quote Sean Connery from Rising Sun: "Fix the problem, not the blame."
I just want to say (and I've said this before) that I don't like the word "spill" being used the way it has been. It doesn't seem appropriate for something so devastating. I've no ideas as to what could be substituted, but there must be something to convey how tragic that is.
Oopsies!
I have a novel idea. Let's NOT worry about who to blame. At least, not right now. Let's stop the leak and clean up the mess. We can deal with blame at our convenience afterwards. Or to quote Sean Connery from Rising Sun: "Fix the problem, not the blame."
"Fix the problem, then the blame," works for me.
Let's NOT worry about who to blame.
I agree with your sentiment, however, we will be 'fixing' this problem for years to come.
Let's NOT worry about who to blame.I agree with your sentiment, however, we will be 'fixing' this problem for years to come.
I know. There are still problems at the site of the Valdez incident and that was HOW many years ago? And coastal wetlands-really, any wetlands-are very fragile ecosystems that we do not have enough understanding of to rebuild with 100% accuracy.
Now please pardon me while I rant.
I find the human tendency to point fingers at others when there are problems to be reprehensible and ultimately pointless. Blaming someone for a given problem while the problem still exists wastes time and energy that could be spent dealing with the problem itself. Blaming other people doesn't fix anything other than the blame onto someone. Oh, and the problem of avoiding any sort of responsibility and culpability for something. I also find blaming others childish. If people spent less time and energy on these things, maybe we wouldn't live in a nation that sues people for coffee that's too hot and other absurdities. I'd prefer it if the federal government and BP cooperated and did everything in their power to stop the leak and clean up the mess, and THEN figured how who was responsible (if anyone) for the spill in the first place.
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Let's NOT worry about who to blame.I agree with your sentiment, however, we will be 'fixing' this problem for years to come.
I like the sentiment, but when there are billions of dollars in cost accrued already you do need to know who to blame. I agree that the money needs to be spent and the spill needs to be fixed, that's not in debate, however we can't just say okay these billions of dollars in debts, the people who's livelyhoods are quite litterally on hold etc. should just wait until we fix the problem, because we don't know who you should deal with for restitution etc. Ultimately the blame is a vital issue in this disaster along with fixing it.
Perhaps. But I think the anger is pretty natural, and it can also be constructive.
Perhaps. But I think the anger is pretty natural, and it can also be constructive.
** spoiler omitted **
You should totally go with that for your status message, D.
Sure: I'm a real doctor. A philosopher, not a physician. And sometimes, you got philosophize with a hammer, baby.
Sure: I'm a real doctor. A philosopher, not a physician. And sometimes, you got philosophize with a hammer, baby.
I approve of this.
Sure: I'm a real doctor. A philosopher, not a physician. And sometimes, you got philosophize with a hammer, baby.
Will a local artist please draw a kickass version of the doctor holding a treatise on philosophy in one hand and a bloody warhammer in the other? He should be wearing leather armor while doing so and have a day and a half worth of stubble.
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Now please pardon me while I rant.
** spoiler omitted **
Normally I would agree 100% with this, but there is somehting to keep inmind here. These companies are doing this in other palces as we speak. If they are doing something wrong, we really need to find out why/how so we don't see this happen somewhere else.
I have a novel idea. Let's NOT worry about who to blame. At least, not right now. Let's stop the leak and clean up the mess. We can deal with blame at our convenience afterwards. Or to quote Sean Connery from Rising Sun: "Fix the problem, not the blame."
+1 +1 +1
** spoiler omitted **
Anytime I hear a discussion of Decarte followed by wet thud sounds, I know you are in the vicinity.
Normally I would agree 100% with this, but there is somehting to keep inmind here. These companies are doing this in other palces as we speak. If they are doing something wrong, we really need to find out why/how so we don't see this happen somewhere else.
Now please pardon me while I rant.
** spoiler omitted **
+1 to this, similarly to how the FAA will ground all planes with feature X if feature X is found to be potentially defective. Other deep rigs should at least be checked for correct operations and procedures.
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+1 to this, similarly to how the FAA will ground all planes with feature X if feature X is found to be potentially defective. Other deep rigs should at least be checked for correct operations and procedures.Normally I would agree 100% with this, but there is somehting to keep inmind here. These companies are doing this in other palces as we speak. If they are doing something wrong, we really need to find out why/how so we don't see this happen somewhere else.
Now please pardon me while I rant.
** spoiler omitted **
+2, if this were to happen somewhere like the Philippines it would not only ruin the environment, but likely the entire country. There need to be some thorough checks, though I'm remaining skeptical that this will actually take place.
I agree that people are often too quick to blame, but that doesn't mean there's no place for it. If I find a murder victim and just go around trying to find a way to resurrect the person, rather than capture the perpetrator, I'm setting up a situation where a lot more people can potentially be killed.
Also, it's not like most lawyers or district attorneys have any expertise whatsoever in terms of physically capping gushers or cleaning up releases. They can, however, start preparing their cases against BP (who most certainly has its own lawyers working overtime on setting up their defense as we speak).
** spoiler omitted **Anytime I hear a discussion of Decarte followed by wet thud sounds, I know you are in the vicinity.
So... what, is he the freakish experimental hybrid of House and Gimli?
So... what, is he the freakish experimental hybrid of House and Gimli?** spoiler omitted **Anytime I hear a discussion of Decarte followed by wet thud sounds, I know you are in the vicinity.
Actually...yeah!
Double Doc, you are now a Mul. Enjoy your bonus to your Consitution and Strength. Your Charisma, however, has certainly seen better days.
Your Charisma, however, has certainly seen better days.
Sigh. I guess I better take that feat where I intimidate with strength instead of charisma, soon.
This is an example of why high level executives really need to have good idea of what their tech people are doing.
Do you have some evidence that they didn't know? Obviously no one thought a release would occur, but that's not to say that the management is blithely oblivious, or that some evil saboteur on the staff secretly caused it.
Then again, maybe they were totally ignorant; I don't know. Even if so, it's sort of expected in the industry that safety procedures apply equally to everyone, at all levels, and that violations get everyone in trouble. Holding management totally blameless for what their workers do is a bit goofy, any way you look at it.
On the other side of the coin, if a root cause analysis indicates that some "low-level tech person" was ultimately responsible, you can rest assured he'll never work again, at the very least -- and, if criminal proceedings do get off the ground, he'd certainly go down with the company, if not earlier.
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Here's the Deepwater Horizon Joint Investigation website. Enjoy.
All BP has to do is prove that the Subcontractors cut corners on the construction of the Wellhead, and US Government Officials (who are increasingly notorious for being comprimised by the industry they police) signed off on it. All (at least for this) Liability falls to the Left and right of BP.
Smears self with oil...holds up a Spear made of Oyster shell and Mangrove wood and screams: "WaaaaGh!"
Here's the Deepwater Horizon Joint Investigation website. Enjoy.All BP has to do is prove that the Subcontractors cut corners on the construction of the Wellhead, and US Government Officials (who are increasingly notorious for being comprimised by the industry they police) signed off on it. All (at least for this) Liability falls to the Left and right of BP.
Smears self with oil...holds up a Spear made of Oyster shell and Mangrove wood and screams: "WaaaaGh!"
They have to prove that to a jury of 12 citizens and/or a judge that knows all the tricks - that's the hard part.
American Tort law is famously viscous with juries routinely handing out fines to corps that are much larger then what corps would pay in any other part of the western world.
Smears self with oil...holds up a Spear made of Oyster shell and Mangrove wood and screams: "WaaaaGh!"
My days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle.
Smears self with oil...holds up a Spear made of Oyster shell and Mangrove wood and screams: "WaaaaGh!"My days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle.
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The investigation hearing I linked to isn't quite the same as a criminal trial. I don't doubt there will be a criminal trial, but a Marine Board of Investigation is set up to determine the cause of an accident at sea and what can be done to prevent future such accidents. If the board (made up of Coast Guard and MMS representatives) determines somebody involved in the accident may have broken a law, they can refer the case to the Dept. of Justice for prosecution.
I just want to say (and I've said this before) that I don't like the word "spill" being used the way it has been. It doesn't seem appropriate for something so devastating. I've no ideas as to what could be substituted, but there must be something to convey how tragic that is.
Cataclysm...
Benzine Rain...that's gotta suck, there are already reports of it. Benzine and Toluene are the lightest portion of the oil, it evaporates into the clouds and ends up in the rain...
We're looking at a Catastrophe which could change the entire Gulf Coast, when it hits the Gulf stream the oil will be transported all over the Atlantic...
BPs estimates were one tenth of oil per day, we're now looking at three months until the relief wells are drilled...
Sea Life in the Gulf and Atlantic is going to be severely affected...
This is an example of why high level executives really need to have good idea of what their tech people are doing.
It is probable that only executives will face criminal liability, the lower level tech guys at the site who actually made the fatal decision are unlikely to be prosecuted(if they are still alive). Being a CEO or high level executive in a company is a high reward position, but this BP scenario also shows the tremendous risk...in a disaster or fatal accident caused by your company, you face the the threat of criminal sanctions.
Too bad it's not under Chinese control...they'd be executed.
...
American Tort law is famously viscous ....
Unfortunately that very viscosity will allow BP to tie things up in court for years.
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Is this an accurate reflection of US feelings?
linky
In response to that article and based on the phone calls and emails I got while I was working on the reponse for this last month, I can say I never heard anybody say we couldn't fix this. Instead, what I heard was, "Yes, we can fix this. So why haven't we?"
I also heard alot of, "BP sucks and Tony Hayward should be fed to wild dogs."
I have a hypothetical for you - Say this happened about 25 years ago, that not only was the environment poisoned in a way that it would take years to clean, attempts to clean have failed and it is still being polluted. More importantly around 2000 - 3000 men women and children died directly because of the spill and another 20000 have died over the years as a result of the spill (please note I am using conservative numbers).
Say that the CEO of the company knew that of the poor safety record of the plant and made no effort to to fix it.
This CEO is safely in another country and has managed to avoid prosecution because he can afford good lawyers.
I have sympathy for those effected by BP, but also a feeling of what goes around comes around.
I suggest that you take a look at The Union Carbide Disaster and compare it to the gulf and wonder who will see justice done and who wont.
At least in the case of BP its the big corporation screwing people that are able to fight back.
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Did that dumb arse executive actually refer to the people affected by this as 'the little people'?
Thats just going to get him a kicking.
Why yes he did. Of course the big business supporting part of the republican demagogy apologized for it all. Then turned right around and apologized for the apology.
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Why yes he did. Of course the big business supporting part of the republican demagogy apologized for it all. Then turned right around and apologized for the apology.Did that dumb arse executive actually refer to the people affected by this as 'the little people'?
Thats just going to get him a kicking.
They've Poisoned the Faery Folk...the Sidhe will have their revenge. Tidal Waves, Sink holes in the Gulf of Mexico, Hurricanes...
"Who is watching out for the little guy in all this?"
"Don't worry, we will take care of the small people." (Spoken by a non-native speaker, dutch I think)
"Oh my god, he called people small or little or something how dare he! Evil corporation, eeeevvvviiiilll!"
I have a hypothetical for you - Say this happened about 25 years ago, that not only was the environment poisoned in a way that it would take years to clean, attempts to clean have failed and it is still being polluted. More importantly around 2000 - 3000 men women and children died directly because of the spill and another 20000 have died over the years as a result of the spill (please note I am using conservative numbers).
Say that the CEO of the company knew that of the poor safety record of the plant and made no effort to to fix it.
This CEO is safely in another country and has managed to avoid prosecution because he can afford good lawyers.
I have sympathy for those effected by BP, but also a feeling of what goes around comes around.
I suggest that you take a look at The Union Carbide Disaster and compare it to the gulf and wonder who will see justice done and who wont.
At least in the case of BP its the big corporation screwing people that are able to fight back.
I was shocked to read that people still live in Bhopal. My understanding is that the water itself is horribly polluted. They should have sent in the army, cleared the place out and built a wall around the area with biohazard signs.
I mean to this day there are people dying in Bhopal due to complications from this accident, some of these deceased where born after the accident itself and simply suffer from growing up in such a toxic environment.