Item creation - cost?


Rules Questions


Hello,

A player of mine wants to make a helm that let's him use quickened true strike one a day.

That's a CL 9th (wizard) and a spell level 5.

In the item creation cost table, there is:
Special: Charges per day

Price: Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)

Exemple: Boots of teleportation

We don't manage to find what should be divided by 5 after toying around with the other formulas and trying to deduce which one to use from boots of teleportation. Any help would be appreciated.

Regards,

Golden Pony


I suppose it goes like this:

(CL x spell level x 2,000)gp / (5/charges) = (9 * 5 * 2,000)/(5/1) = 18,000 gp

But the item must then be compared to similar items so it isn't too cheap or too expensive. I believe that is how it goes IIRC.


Morhin wrote:

I suppose it goes like this:

(CL x spell level x 2,000)gp / (5/charges) = (9 * 5 * 2,000)/(5/1) = 18,000 gp

But the item must then be compared to similar items so it isn't too cheap or too expensive. I believe that is how it goes IIRC.

I thought so but boots of teleport seem to contradict that. They would cost 54.000, they only cost 24.500.


golden pony wrote:
I thought so but boots of teleport seem to contradict that. They would cost 54.000, they only cost 24.500.

Actually, 49000, the 24500 is the craft cost.

I suspect they're cheaper than the formula because it is expected they will not be used in combat, or at least that they will have only limited usefulness in combat.


For giggles, I looked up the Helm of Glorious Recovery from the Magic Item Compendium.

A very similar item in many ways. Allows wearer to cast Cure Critical Wounds (4d8+7), once per day as a swift action.

It's only 5600gp base (half to craft).

Presumably that's 4 * 7 * 2000 / 10(?). [Spell level * CL * 2000 / ?]

The strange disparity of Magic Item Compendium prices and Core item prices is an old topic though.


Kelso wrote:

Actually, 49000, the 24500 is the craft cost.

Ahhh that was the problem, thnx..!!


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Morhin wrote:

I suppose it goes like this:

(CL x spell level x 2,000)gp / (5/charges) = (9 * 5 * 2,000)/(5/1) = 18,000 gp

You can voluntarily reduce your caster level to lower price and effect. Since True strike has the same effect at level 1 as at level 20 .....

(CL X Spell Level x 2000) / (5/Charges) = (1 * 5 * 2000)/(5/1) = 2000 gp

My favorite is an eternal wand of cure light 5 charges/day.

(1 * 1 * 2000) / (5/5) = 2000gp


dulsin wrote:
Morhin wrote:

I suppose it goes like this:

(CL x spell level x 2,000)gp / (5/charges) = (9 * 5 * 2,000)/(5/1) = 18,000 gp

You can voluntarily reduce your caster level to lower price and effect. Since True strike has the same effect at level 1 as at level 20 .....

(CL X Spell Level x 2000) / (5/Charges) = (1 * 5 * 2000)/(5/1) = 2000 gp

My favorite is an eternal wand of cure light 5 charges/day.

(1 * 1 * 2000) / (5/5) = 2000gp

Quickened True strike is lvl 5 though, so you do need the 9th CL. Also, since it is a wonderous item you can't go below the minimum caster level for the feat.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Kelso wrote:

For giggles, I looked up the Helm of Glorious Recovery from the Magic Item Compendium.

The strange disparity of Magic Item Compendium prices and Core item prices is an old topic though.

No kidding. I only recently bothered looking in the MIC and was completely shocked by the prices of items that seemed crazy good for their price. Glad I wasn't just off my rocker.


The price rules are more "guidelines" than "rules". The Dm is supposed to look for similar items in the book and use that as a guide as well. I could, by the guidelines, make boots of expeditious retreat that would be cheaper than boots of striding and springing and provide better bonuses, but a DM would be within his rights telling me that it costs more.


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Caineach wrote:
Quickened True strike is lvl 5 though, so you do need the 9th CL. Also, since it is a wonderous item you can't go below the minimum caster level for the feat.

You are only partially right if I am not mistaken. You need the CL for the spell, but not for the feat. Look through the core magic items. I just KNOW there are CL 1st and 2nd wondrous items in there.

EDIT: Found several wondrous items with CL 1 & 2.

Brooch of shielding
Elixir of swimming
Elixir of vision
Hand of the mage
Hat of disguise
Phylactery of faithfulness
Pipes of the sewers
Pipes of sounding
Strand of prayer beads (blessing)


Anburaid wrote:
The price rules are more "guidelines" than "rules". The Dm is supposed to look for similar items in the book and use that as a guide as well. I could, by the guidelines, make boots of expeditious retreat that would be cheaper than boots of striding and springing and provide better bonuses, but a DM would be within his rights telling me that it costs more.

That's a very important point...

When it comes to true strike (and other powerful spells) I'd pay attention pricing items and the maths, IMO, should only be the starting point of a valuation.
I mean, if my player would like to create the same object with quickened true strike 5/day, the maths would tell me 18000x5=90000 but I'm not sure I would allow it without a discretionary +50% (at least).
Even about the 18000 one (1/day) I'd do some consideration before.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Herr Malthus wrote:
Anburaid wrote:
The price rules are more "guidelines" than "rules". The Dm is supposed to look for similar items in the book and use that as a guide as well. I could, by the guidelines, make boots of expeditious retreat that would be cheaper than boots of striding and springing and provide better bonuses, but a DM would be within his rights telling me that it costs more.

That's a very important point...

When it comes to true strike (and other powerful spells) I'd pay attention pricing items and the maths, IMO, should only be the starting point of a valuation.
I mean, if my player would like to create the same object with quickened true strike 5/day, the maths would tell me 18000x5=90000 but I'm not sure I would allow it without a discretionary +50% (at least).
Even about the 18000 one (1/day) I'd do some consideration before.

If you do not like the idea of a particular item in your game it is completely proper to ban it or give a crazy cost to it but according to the rules of the game the item cost would be 2000gp.

18K would put the item in the same class as +4 Mithral armor, +3 ring of Pro, or +3 Natural armor. A bit much for something that can only be used on one swing each day.

Scarab Sages

Wrong, according to the rules of the game, pg 549 to be exact:

"Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren't enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point."

Thus, by the rules of the game, once you've calculated the formula for a new magic item, you're still not done. The dm has to decide if its actual worth is high enough to merit a price adjustment.

So, sorry, but even raw says that the tables are just a starting point, not the conclusion.

Heck, otherwise an amulet of continuous true strike would be 1x1x2000g


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Magicdealer wrote:
Heck, otherwise an amulet of continuous true strike would be 1x1x2000g

That would be true if True Strike had a duration. Since it is an instantaneous effect you must have charges.

The purpose of the review and evaluation is to find out if an item is breaking another part of the item creation rules.

Example: A Bracer of continuous Mage armor could be created for 2000gp. This would effectively give a +4 AC but the rules ala Bracers of armor say the cost for this item is 4^2 * 1000 gp = 16,000 gp.

On the other hand. You could create the Mystical Sweater of Comfiness. Endure Elements level 1 continuous effect for 2000gp

Scarab Sages

I thought the purpose of this particular review and evaluation was to assist the op in determining the proper pricing for the helm of true strike 1/day.

At which point it's important to understand that the helm has to be evaluated based on its actual worth, not just the calculated totals.

And then I gave a general example of why it's important to adjust custom items based on their bonuses in combat.

And, actually, true strike isn't instantaneous. It lasts until "Before the end of the next round" At least one round. Not quite two rounds.

Page 363

Again, I'll emphasize the point. You can't think up an idea for a custom magical item, calculate out the cost according to the formulas, and use that as the price.

You have to check with your DM to see if he feels the power of the item warrants a price adjustment, either up OR down, in the total. Assuming the formulas are absolute might be a handy abusable house rule, but it's not raw, shouldn't be taken as the intent of the rules, and should be identified as a house rule when suggested.

The purpose of the general dm review and evaluation of items, as per the quote, is specifically connected to the price of the item.

However, for the sake of clarity:

Amulet of Continuous True Strike:
Spell level x caster level x 2000gp
1x1x2000 = 2000

Additionally, due to the effects duration measured in rounds, price is x4

2000 x 4 =8000g

So, 8k for a constant +20 to attack rolls. This is one of the best-known examples of why dm's have to adjudicate and evaluate custom magical items, adjusting the price as necessary, before allowing them in the game.

I think the second most well known item would be the amulet of cure light wounds.

Other concerns with allowing the 1/day true strike include:

What do you do when the player wants to increase it to 2/day, 3/day, 5/day, and so on.

Will you allow other players to have their own version of the same item?

Seeing as how this item will probably be used every day there's a combat, is 18,000 gold worth guaranteeing an auto-hit once a day, commensurate with all the extra bonuses and buffs the player can stack on that one hit?

Personally, if I was playing a melee character, I would either use this on an opening charge attack *if I was built for charging*, or on a stacked up whirlwind. And I would put this item right under a +2 weapon, and over just about everything else. Of course, that's partly because my builds would then be centered around getting the most out of that one attack :) YMMV


Magicdealer wrote:

I thought the purpose of this particular review and evaluation was to assist the op in determining the proper pricing for the helm of true strike 1/day.

...

Amulet of Continuous True Strike:
2000 x 4 =8000g

...

Other concerns with allowing the 1/day true strike include:

What do you do when the player wants to increase it to 2/day, 3/day, 5/day, and so on.

Will you allow other players to have their own version of the same item?

Seeing as how this item will probably be used every day there's a combat, is 18,000...

Well obviously an amulet of continous true cheese is out of question. For this particular game, it's a very small party of players trusting each other, balance between characters is a rarely an issue, and can always be fixed promptly.

The character using this is a frenzied berserker, with a less cheesy than in 3.5, but still powerful, supreme power attack and will probably be using this on it to make his last attack with PA hit the BBEG.

I just got confused thinking the boots of teleport 24.500 gold price was its market price instead of its crafting cost. In that case, yes, the initial market price I had was 18.000 indeed.

When the player wants to increase the daily charges, he will have to come up with his crafting feat (he does not have it despite what I said in my first post, it was a one time gift by a NPC) and ranks craft(something), as he's not a spellcaster, and/or convince me into starting some adventure hook leading to him finding someone who could increase the charges.

Afterwards, he would have to pay 9.000 with the feat or 18.000 without per extra charge, plus finding the extra downtime somehow. To a maximum if 3charges a day.

I should also point out that, about the CL required to make this amulet of quickened true strike, it has to be 9th simply because the spell quickened true strike is 5thlv and requires the caster to be lv9. I think you cannot go with 'the spell is originially lv1 so adding a feat does not count for purposes of determining minimum caster level' route.


Morhin wrote:

I suppose it goes like this:

(CL x spell level x 2,000)gp / (5/charges) = (9 * 5 * 2,000)/(5/1) = 18,000 gp

But the item must then be compared to similar items so it isn't too cheap or too expensive. I believe that is how it goes IIRC.

I would have to say this as well. Honestly, true strike once per day as a swift action doesn't seem like it would be a problem at the levels you could craft it at.

Magicdealer wrote:


Amulet of Continuous True Strike:
Spell level x caster level x 2000gp
1x1x2000 = 2000

Additionally, due to the effects duration measured in rounds, price is x4

2000 x 4 =8000g

So, 8k for a constant +20 to attack rolls. This is one of the best-known examples of why dm's have to adjudicate and evaluate custom magical items, adjusting the price as necessary, before allowing them in the game.

If you wanted to make an amulet of constant true strike, pricing would fall under 'attack bonus' rather than as a spell. At least it did in 3.5.

Treated as a +10 should be pretty fair since it does not add damage but it will ignore concealment.

The price would land around 200,000 gp, but I'm not too sure on the caster level. It would be at least 9th. My knowledge was always based around price, and I haven't been playing pathfinder long enough to adjust to all of the little changes it's made without having to reference the book.

Honestly I'm still getting used to not having to spend XP on crafting stuff.

Scarab Sages

Well, I thought about the attack bonus angle, but there isn't a formula for "attack bonus" per se that I could find in the pathfinder core book.

Weapon enhancement adds both to hit and damage, and that's the closest formula in the book.

The problem with trying to balance hit into a hit/damage computation is that they don't really mesh that well. A two-hander fighter would get more benefit out of the damage, while a twf rogue would get more benefit out of the hit.

We're moving out of raw past this point :p

A weapon bonus is bonus squared x 2000g

If you divided half of that into hit and half into damage, you'd get bonus squared x 1000g

So then you'd end up with 400000g for a +20 bonus to hit.

If you went down to bonus squared x 500g then you're down to 200k.

But that also means you can rack up bonuses to hit pretty quickly. Also, you're taking weapon enhancement bonus, removing the damage, allowing it to work with any attack at all *not just one weapon*, and reducing the price by 75%.

That just doesn't feel balanced to me.

The other issue here is that true strike bypasses a restriction: Weapons can't have more than a +5 enhancement bonus and +5 misc. abilities. True strike bypasses that by making it a character bonus that provides +20, which is four times the normal bonus to hit, and twice the total bonus a weapon can have on it. It's an awesome spell, but item-abusable definitely.


Magicdealer wrote:


So then you'd end up with 400000g for a +20 bonus to hit.

If you went down to bonus squared x 500g then you're down to 200k.

We could go with Craft Epic Wondrous Item and add another multiple of ten (halved for the reduced effect of no damage enh.), for 0,5 * (20^2 x 20,000) = 4,000,000 gp.

That's clearly beyond low-level characters. But then again, ELH has insane costs for magic items.


Morhin wrote:
18,000 gp

This is the correct price of the item described in the OP.

As to an item that gives an all-the-time True Strike; that's an Insight Bonus to attack that stacks with everything else. It's Bonus Squared times 2500, by RAW.

It doesn't have to be +20, though. Bracers of Armor are based off of Mage Armor, but aren't always +4.

Helmet of Insightful Attack +1 = 2500
+2 = 10000
+3 = 22500
+4 = 40000
+5 = 62500

More than +5 is an epic item and requires you put a multiple of 10 in there. (At least by 3.0 rules, the last word on the subject.)

+6 = 900000
.
.
.
+20 = 10000000


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I disagree about the CL having to be 9.

"A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell."

If I wanted to create gloves of Quickened Magic Missile CL 9 would make perfect sense. The added levels give the spell additional effect for the added costs.
(SL x CL x 2000 gp) / (Charges / 5) = (5 X 9 x 2000) / (1/5) = 18,000

There is no reason that you could not instead make the CL 1. In the case of MM that means you would get only 1 missile instead of 5.

Dark Archive

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

Don't the metamagic feats indicate the spell must be cast at a higher level to achieve the effect of the feat? If that's the case, shouldn't this same restriction be required if making an item based on a metamagic feat-enhanced spell?

It seems to me that if you crafted your Gloves as a CL1 item, they would be Gloves of Magic Missile (requiring a standard action to activate) rather than Gloves of Quickened Magic Missile (requiring a Swift action to activate).


dulsin wrote:

I disagree about the CL having to be 9.

"A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell."

The minimum caster level required to cast a Quickend 1st level spell is 9 though. Reduce it to CL 1 and you have to remove the Quickened.

That said, what's gained by making it Quickened? Activating the Helm would still be a standard action, right?

EDIT: NM, was answered above while I was posting.

Scarab Sages

Kelso, how is that raw? I'm looking at the formula table, and the only thing that is bonus squared x 2500 is an armor class bonus.


Magicdealer wrote:
Kelso, how is that raw? I'm looking at the formula table, and the only thing that is bonus squared x 2500 is an armor class bonus.

Ah, you're right. I remembered that the price for the Dusty Rose Ioun Stone is calculated with Bonus Squared x 2500 and that the Ioun Stone is an Insight bonus. Then doubled because it's slotless.

It's actually AC (Other).

So, by RAW, there is no appropriate way to price an all-the-time Insight+ to Attack.

You might argue that because Weapon Enhancement costs twice as much as Armor Enhancement, then Attack Insight might cost twice as much as AC Insight. Except you only get the Insight to attack, not damage.

So, it's not RAW, but I think my prices are appropriate. Under 3.5, I'd never let a player have this, or at least I'd charge a lot more. Under Pathfinder, I'm fairly comfortable with the pricing on this. A player converting all of his BAB to damage would make me nervous, but the new Power Attack is safer.


Maldollen wrote:


The minimum caster level required to cast a Quickend 1st level spell is 9 though. Reduce it to CL 1 and you have to remove the Quickened.

That said, what's gained by making it Quickened? Activating the Helm would still be a standard action, right?

As long as the creator is using Quickened magic in the item (and paying for the increase in CL), I don't think there's any reason not to allow the item to reflect that. There were a ton of items in the MIC that were swift actions to activate.

In regards to how much the OP's item would cost, the MIC had this:

MagicItemCompendium wrote:

TRUE STRIKE

GAUNTLETS
Price (Item Level): 3,500 gp (8th)
Body Slot: Hands
Caster Level: 3rd
Aura: Faint; (DC 16) divination
Activation: Standard (command)
Weight: —
These supple leather gauntlets are dyed the
color of ivory.
When you activate true strike gauntlets,
you gain a +20 insight bonus on the next
attack you make before the end of your
next turn.
This ability functions once per day.
Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item,
true strike.
Cost to Create: 1,750 gp, 140 XP, 4 days.

The writer's of the MIC charged 3,500gp per use of a non-quickened True Strike spell.


Can someone help me with the cost of creating an amulet of life protection a.k.a. death ward. It has 10 charges per day. This is what I have so far, but I getting confused on the "divide by (5 divided by the charges per day)."

cl 7 x spell level 4 x 2000 = 56,000gp from that point i'm lost.

thanks!


One common mistake i say reading thro the post.

If the item is going to be noting more than an item casting a spell x time a day. Standard Action to Use.

  • = Use the Command word ( SL x CL x 1,800)
  • = Then Charge per day = Divide by (5 divide by charge per day) = To reduce over all cost if less than 5, or increase cost if more than 5

    ..............

    On the other hand, if you want the True Strike spell effect all the time, at use. Then i would use. Standard Action to Use

  • = Use/continuous ( SL x CL x 2,000)
  • = If item has duration in rounds = multiply cost by x 4

    ............

    On the other hand, If you are not looking to cast a spell, but instead want a permanent bonus to your attack roll and damage roll. Any time you attack per round.

  • = Weapon Bonus = Bonus squared x 2,000 gold
  • = Caster level is 3 times the bonus (( Yes by RAW, there is a loop-hope were this is not listed for wondrous items, but unless you want all your caster to start making Armor out of wonder item, I suggest that this is used.))
  • = Greater Magic Weapon or Magic Weapon or True Strike spell listed in the creation requirement, is just for fluff. (needs to based off something)

  • Scarab Sages

    Woot! Thread rez :)

    Ok, let's see...

    If you want to create an amulet of death ward, you're probably looking at a command word.

    So spell level x caster level x 1800g

    Death ward is a 4th level spell. So 4 x 7 (min for cleric to cast) x 1800

    That nets you 50400
    .5
    Next, you divide it by your charges. 50400 / (5/10) or 50400 / .5 = 100800g

    The charges per day means that it's standard cost if you have 5 charges. Cheaper with fewer, more expensive with more.

    Use activated/continuous is more for constant effects. If an item is casting a spell for you, then you're looking at a command word.

    What is really interesting here, for you, is that you might as well leave it without charges if you're doing more than 4/day.


  • = Death ward the spell changed from 3.5 to Pathfinder. The magic item Scarab of Life Protection still works as it had in past edition. So re-creating this item by the rules would be fuzzy. (just a warning)
    .......................................................................

    Based on Pathfinder rules.

    I would rather have Amulet of Death Ward = Permanent spell effect of the Spell Death Ward as listed in the spell, 24 hours a day, 352 days a year.

    Death Ward: Duration: 1min/level. Spell Level = cleric 4. Minimum Caster Level = 7th.

    Continuous item = ( 4 x 7 x 2000) = 56,000
    Duration ( multiple cost by 2 ) = 112,000 Retail Price

    .........................
    If that cost to much. You might want to reduce the price. So it only protects you against the first 50 attacks. Each attack using up a charge (regardless if the attack is successful or not). After 50 uses, the item losses its magical ability (or destroyed).

    Charged (50 charges) = 1/2 of 112,000 = 56,000 Retail Price


  • Since you ask this question in another thread, link it for easy referencing.

    COST OF CREATING AN AMULET OF LIFE PROTECTION "DEATH WARD"

    Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Item creation - cost? All Messageboards

    Want to post a reply? Sign in.