Advanced troll with gear, what CR?


Advice


So this is my 'little baby', CR12 troll

Spoiler:

Troll ( Giant Advanced Half-Black-Dragon Half-Fiend, barbarian 1) CR 12
XP 12800
Evil Huge outsider (native)
Init +5; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent; Perception +11

--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----
DEFENSE
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AC 28, touch 13, flat-footed 23 (+5 Dex, +15 natural, -2 size)
hp 201 (1d12+6d8+90) regeneration 5 (acid or fire)
Fort +20, Ref +7, Will +6;
DR 5/magic; Immune poison, acid, paralysis, sleep; Resist acid 10, cold 10, electricity 10, fire 10; SR 22;

--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----
OFFENSE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----
Speed 40 ft., fly 60 (average)
Melee bite +19 (2d6+17), 2 claws +19 (1d8+17)
Space 15 ft.Reach 15 ft.
Special Attacks rend (2 claws, 1d6+7), breath weapon (60-foot line of acid, 6d6 acid damage, Reflex DC 27 half), smite good 1/day (+7 damage)

Spell-Like Abilities (CL 6) 3/day - darkness; 1/day - desecrate, unholy blight (DC 16);

Rage 16 rounds a day.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----
STATISTICS
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----
Str 45, Dex 20, Con 41, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 14;
Base Atk +4; CMB 21; CMD 36
Feats Intimidating Prowess, Iron Will,
Skills Intimidate +13, Perception +9
Languages Giant

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ECOLOGY
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Environment cold mountains
Organization solitary or gang (2-4)
Treasure standard

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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Smite Good(Su): Once per day it can add extra damage equal to its HD (maximum of +20) against a good foe.

I want him to lead a troll army. What equipment ould you give to it and what CR would it have then?

Any skill or feat you would change as well? (there are still 2 empty slots).

What I would see is a handfull of potions before the fight with the PC but that seems a little cheesy to me. As a general, some nasty armor and perhaps weapons would be in order.


You could give him a whopping great sword and Cleave + Great Cleave. That would ruin some persons day.

With his hp and regeneration he likely turns his nose up at lots of armor.

You might make him take leadership if he's actually leading.


How do you make Half-Fiend/Half Dragon parts anything else? The absurd resistances + SR. Choose one template and stick with it.. Adjust things as needed. Any powerful gear or special abilities just make it in-line with something else...


It seems a bit overdone to me, a 7 HD creature with that much strength and constitution and a stack of templates is frankly just a bit silly to me.

I'd add either the half-dragon or half-fiend template, not both.

Also I'd skip on adding an advanced template with class levels, except in very special cases and rarely use just 1 class level with a racial HD creature, the ability boost and class features add a bit much typically.

Try a half-dragon template with barbarian levels, give it a breastplate and some fancy gear. Should do well enough in my opinion.


One assumes the two templates are to give acid immunity and fire resistance, thus making the troll close to unkillable.

Liberty's Edge

I'm not even going to go into the silliness of a creature that is "half" of three things at once. Unless it's man-bear-pig, then it's okay.
Either way, I'd never stack more than one template on a particular creature, and on top of that I'd like to note that the simple templates are for "quick and dirty" upscaling of opponents and you're supposed to put more thought into it if you've had time to prepare.
Even if you applied Advanced to a 0 point buy character the template would be worth something like 30 points, and that's when its at its cheapest.

I would do either the Half-Dragon OR the Half-Fiend, then give it more class levels. A 7HD creature fighting a party which will presumably be at least level 10 will likely be prey to all sorts of HD-based spells it'd normally be immune to.

Actually, make him a bard. That'll mess with the party AND it's considered a non-key class with respect to the creature, meaning it can get a couple extra levels in. Half-fiend troll with 8 bard levels? Scary. Give him perform (Oratory) and have him use dirge of doom by insulting the party and yelling at his troops.
Still roughly CR 12 by core rules (base CR7 for creature, add 1 to CR for each two non-key class levels until level exceeds CR, then add 1 for 1). So +3.5 for the first 7 bard levels, then +1 for the last one for total 11.5 (I'd round up on this one).
For equipment tack on a Mithral Breastplate, a longsword and a heavy steel shield. +8 to AC before enhancement bonuses, and a longsword is no slouch.

The bard build leaves you with a very versatile opponent who has no real solid weakness. Or maybe I just like bards.


Yeah Drop a template and add some hitdice or levels

Dark Archive

Endurance and Die Hard may be good feats for such a monster.

His stats seem off, though. With 6 Levels of Humanoid and one Barbarian Level, his BAB should be +5. With his Strength of 45, his attacks should be at +22. His rage should be 19 rounds per day. His hit points seem off, too.

Dark Archive RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

+6 Will save, eh? You do realize that there are otherwise to neutralize a threat than just beating its HP down, right? Assuming your PCs are at a level where facing a CR12 monster is reasonable, then this thing is basically going to fail every Will save they throw at it. Also, yes, you can't have two "half-X" templates on a creature. For gear recommendations, I recommend anything that pulls that Will save out of the crapper. Otherwise, you are one hold monster away from a very anti-climatic battle.


Jadeite wrote:
Endurance and Die Hard may be good feats for such a monster.

If the DM wants the combat to take _all session_ then sure. The troll won't ever die unless it goes to -41 hit points and then gets fired. Since it has acid immunity and fire resistance 10, the only way to light it on fire is to have a wizard with fireball or scorching ray drop more than 10 damage on it-- and scorching ray is 4d6, meaning it could be 4 just as easily as it could be 24.

What I would do is just make the troll an amalgam black dragon troll. "Half-dragon" is so generic-- the party will hear about the "half-dragon" troll and scoff since he'll just have draconic features... and then they run into this big, sickly green/black spotted and hairy beast with a huge snout and long, meaty fingers, with tusks out to here.

"Oh-- they meant that the dragon was half-troll..."

Dark Archive

Ice Titan wrote:


If the DM wants the combat to take _all session_ then sure. The troll won't ever die unless it goes to -41 hit points and then gets fired. Since it has acid immunity and fire resistance 10, the only way to light it on fire is to have a wizard with fireball or scorching ray drop more than 10 damage on it-- and scorching ray is 4d6, meaning it could be 4 just as easily as it could be 24.

The troll should have 109 hp, 139 while raging. Even with Die Hard, it's not that much. Regeneration 5 makes little difference if each of your opponents deals about 50 points of damage per round. The main mistake the characters could make would be using their fire spells to early.


Ice Titan wrote:


"Oh-- they meant that the dragon was half-troll..."

That sounds like fun


Ok I see the dislike for 2 templates.

I didn't verify if some of the numbers were off, just used an automatic quick and dirty calculator because I do not have the time myself.

And as a side note the small party will probably not have access to exploting that will save and have little fire damage if any at all. It will be more likely a brawn fight only.

If I get more time I'll just remove giant and advanced and add some 4HD and thus advance the size one category as well. Add a little ring of fire resistance perhaps.

Grand Lodge

golden pony wrote:

Ok I see the dislike for 2 templates.

I didn't verify if some of the numbers were off, just used an automatic quick and dirty calculator because I do not have the time myself.

And as a side note the small party will probably not have access to exploting that will save and have little fire damage if any at all. It will be more likely a brawn fight only.

If I get more time I'll just remove giant and advanced and add some 4HD and thus advance the size one category as well. Add a little ring of fire resistance perhaps.

So your party has no casters then. Because basically, this baby is caster bait.


Cold Napalm wrote:
So your party has no casters then. Because basically, this baby is caster bait.

Yup. At least not for that fight most likely.

Liberty's Edge

golden pony wrote:
Cold Napalm wrote:
So your party has no casters then. Because basically, this baby is caster bait.
Yup. At least not for that fight most likely.

Just to be sure: Your intent is to make this nigh unkillable then? Be sure to think about how your players will react to the troll that WILL NOT DIE.

If that's your goal, reward the players for the fight. Don't give the troll templates, give it magic items that give it resistances. That way the players see exactly why he was such a pain to kill, and then they get cool stuff! Simply advancing the mob and giving it barbarian levels and a pair of resistance rings would do the trick.


Quelian wrote:
golden pony wrote:
Cold Napalm wrote:
So your party has no casters then. Because basically, this baby is caster bait.
Yup. At least not for that fight most likely.

Just to be sure: Your intent is to make this nigh unkillable then? Be sure to think about how your players will react to the troll that WILL NOT DIE.

If that's your goal, reward the players for the fight. Don't give the troll templates, give it magic items that give it resistances. That way the players see exactly why he was such a pain to kill, and then they get cool stuff! Simply advancing the mob and giving it barbarian levels and a pair of resistance rings would do the trick.

No, the intent is to 'mess' with the players whocan face roll most module fights with relative ease by designing, as a rare exception, something to counter what they have. There will be a town. With torches. And little barrels of oil around.

Liberty's Edge

golden pony wrote:
No, the intent is to 'mess' with the players whocan face roll most module fights with relative ease by designing, as a rare exception, something to counter what they have. There will be a town. With torches. And little barrels of oil around.

I'm not saying that giving them a hard encounter that has to be killed intelligently is a bad thing. I'm just saying if you're going to do it make the rewards fit the fight. Give him rings of minor acid and fire resistance, so instead of the players thinking he's just a powerhouse you whipped up to own them they think "Nice! We beat him even with some seriously nice loot and now it's ours! Jackpot!"

Then again I'm a big proponent of NPCs that use potions and gear actively.

If you pull the templates and just advance his HD and a couple class levels he can easily become a CR 12 without templates. Use the magical gear and you can get a lot more bang for your buck with CR and still get the effect you want.


golden pony wrote:
There will be a town. With torches. And little barrels of oil around.

: (

Torch: 1d4 fire damage.

Being on fire: 1d6 fire damage.

Troll: 10 fire resist.

If you want to change how much damage being on fire does, I would suggest going ahead. Otherwise, mundane fire can _never_ break this troll's fire resist. Even if he was, say, exposed directly to volcanic effects-- ie, standing in a pyroclastic cloud-- which, for most people, is instant death-- he would only take fire damage on an 11 or 12, and it would only stop his regen for one round.


Thanks for the advice. I will introduce this reworked troll. The stat block should be alright now. It will be leading a large group of mooks sent by dark powers after the party and hopefully be able to flank with the help of a small, distracting swarm.

The party does not have a caster with will hold monster or other will save dependent spells, AoE attacks and no 'good' weapons. Due to the armor and weapon improvement (which constitue basically defense and offense that the party cannot really get through) and general sinergy of the monster, I bumped its CR from the normal 12 to 13.

Spoiler:

Fiendish Half-Black-Dragon Troll, Rogue 8 CR 13
XP 19200
CE Large dragon (giant)
Init +7, Fast stealth +16; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent; Perception +16
________________________________________
DEFENSE
________________________________________
AC 29, touch 12, flat-footed 26 (+3 Dex, +8 armor, +9 natural, -1 size)
hp 246 (6d12+8d8+168) regeneration 5 (acid or fire)
Fort +20, Ref +15, Will +8;
DR 10/good; Immune acid, paralysis, sleep; Resist cold 15, fire 15; SR 19;
Evasion, Improved uncanny dodge (lv8), Trap sense +2.
________________________________________
OFFENSE
________________________________________
Speed 40 ft
Melee Bite +23 (1d8+12), 2 claws +25 (1d6+13, 1d6+18 rend, 2d6 stacking bleed on critical, 19-20/x2 )
Space 10 ft.Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks rend (2 claws, 1d6+18); Smite Good 1/day (swift action, +14 bonus to damage; persists until target dead or creature rests)., breath weapon (60-foot line of acid, 6d6 acid damage, Reflex DC 29 half).
Sneak attack 4d6+4 bleed.
________________________________________
STATISTICS
________________________________________
Str 34, Dex 16, Con 34, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 8;
Base Atk +12; CMB 24; CMD 37
Feats Power attack, Improved bull-rush, Awesome blow, Critical focus, Bleeding critical, Endurance, Diehard.
Improved Initiative (combat trick), Weapon focus (claw, Weapon training)
Skills Acrobatics +16, Bluff +13, Climb +15, Intimidate +25, Perception +14, Sense motive +14, Stealth +20, Survival +14, Swim +15.
Gear Shadow breastplate +2, Amulet of keen claws +1.
Notes Fly speed removed, ground speed increased by 10ft instead.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So a dragon mated with a fiendish troll, or a fiendish dragon mated with a troll, or perhaps it was made by magic an there was no mating involved.

There are numerous end-game ways to explain how something can be half of three things.

How else do you think a half-dragon dragon came to exist? (I'm particularly fond of the pink dragon--a red dragon with the white half dragon template.)


golden pony wrote:


** spoiler omitted **...

This is the closest I've ever seen to an invincible monster.

The party can't do damage to it, and it will reliably hit them with most attacks. I dunno. Are you trying to kill them?

EDIT: Misread 29 AC as 39 AC and that's why I was mind blown by the creature

Okay I threw the numbers for this guy and he's guaranteed to one-round kill anyone if he's flanking them. Like 12th level fighter has 10+12+3+2+2=29 AC, maybe like 34 if he's shield. A paladin smiting him could have 37. But he'd still hit that paladin on a 14, and I ran pure avg. damage and he can pull off a 170 damage round on average assuming he's smiting. Even smite would only drop it down to 128 and that's still enough to obliterate someone.

I dunno, man. I dunno.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think his attacks are off. He should have a +5 BAB and a +17 modifier from Strength. That's +22 to hit, though you knock 2 off for size, making the final attack roll +20 to hit before rage and smite.

His rend damage is off as well. It should read 1d8+25, not 1d6+7.

EDIT: There appear to be a number of other things off as well.

How are you going to keep your players from hitting it with dominate person or something similar? Once they beat its spell resistance, its pretty much over for your pet. He will end up being turned against your future encounters.

Liberty's Edge

Where's his cold/fire resistance coming from? Or is it just an added thing on the monster?


THE FIRST BLOCK IS OFF.

About the second attempt:
-Fire resistance comes from fiendish template, same for DR, SR 5+HD and cold resistance.

-Attack bonus: 6 dragon hit dices, 8 rogue levels = +12. Strength 34 = bonus +12. Weapon focus on the claws which are also +1. -1 for Large.

Rend damage from the troll entry: 1d6. Add 1.5 strength bonus. total of 1d6+18.

-Fiendish trolls serving the darker powers (which the party ignores at the moment), some of them are the offspring of an evil dragon allied with said powers to further its own causes.

-The party lacks casters, proper fire or way to address crowds other than cleave, but they have one trick ponies as well with large attack bonus and damage potentials. The town where they get ambushed at night also includes oil barrels as part of the economy. Hopefully someone will think of luring the troll to the nasty spot.

In any case checkign the party stats, it will go down in 3 rounds and probably take close to 0hp the party's tank. The problem I would see and little surprise is feign death with bluff and regenerate from the troll + stealth followed by another sneak attack ambush that will most likely drop one of the party members. Rince and repeat.

But I disgress, I do not think my party will die to this even withotu casters and fire of their own.

EDIT: The party tank is non good and has 192hp without rage. lv13.


golden pony wrote:
The stat block should be alright now.

Just glanced at it.

Mind going over the Stealth score? In fact with skills it can be helpful to put (x) where x is number of ranks to aid in deconstructing.

I get the following:
Ranks 14
Class 3
Size -4
Dex 3
ACP -3
Shadow 5
Total +18

There seem to be other issues with the critter as well. Btw he's wearing medium armor so his speed should be 20/40(avg) or as you've elected to modify 30 (rather than 40).

Also how are you figuring the CR of the creature? I take it that you are only counting 8 rogue levels as 4CR? Troll(5)+1/2Dragon(2)+Fiendish(1)+Rogue(4?)

It seems to get decent benefit from the rogue levels and if nothing else I would base things on the original troll's 5 thus counting the rogue8 for +6.5CR if not +7. This is a place where you really need to look at what you are doing, as the old 3e 'non-associated' levels is a place for great abuse. I recall one person making a critter with 23HD (final) that had the casting of a 13th level cleric and called it CR 11... Consider that with your argument here that you could add Rogue1 for +0CR yet increase the stats of the creature immensely.

-James


james maissen wrote:
golden pony wrote:
The stat block should be alright now.

Just glanced at it.

Mind going over the Stealth score? In fact with skills it can be helpful to put (x) where x is number of ranks to aid in deconstructing.

I get the following:
Ranks 14
Class 3
Size -4
Dex 3
ACP -3
Shadow 5
Total +18

There seem to be other issues with the critter as well. Btw he's wearing medium armor so his speed should be 20/40(avg) or as you've elected to modify 30 (rather than 40).

Also how are you figuring the CR of the creature? I take it that you are only counting 8 rogue levels as 4CR? Troll(5)+1/2Dragon(2)+Fiendish(1)+Rogue(4?)

It seems to get decent benefit from the rogue levels and if nothing else I would base things on the original troll's 5 thus counting the rogue8 for +6.5CR if not +7. This is a place where you really need to look at what you are doing, as the old 3e 'non-associated' levels is a place for great abuse. I recall one person making a critter with 23HD (final) that had the casting of a 13th level cleric and called it CR 11... Consider that with your argument here that you could add Rogue1 for +0CR yet increase the stats of the creature immensely.

-James

Hm I forgot to mention the breastplate is mithril. Thanks for the revision =). Also did not adjust stealth in the beginning line near initiative to match the 'skills' entry.

If it's +7 for rogue, it would be CR15 I think. Would have to compare with other monsters. In a setting with the crowd of mooks to help flanking and a party without fire based attacks nor enchantments/illusions etc, it's probably a very difficult encounter and worth twice its experience, but in a straight fight it does not seem so tough to me. The lv13 party's tank could drop it in a straight fight, and he has more will saving throws, etc.

Anyway, comparing with a CR12, 13 and 15 would offer the best result I guess.


The troll is not proficient with breastplate and also negates evasion, better make it a chain shirt +2 for +6 armor bonus instead, the CR of 13 is what I would give it myself so I do not see a problem with that. Though technically it would be CR 12.

Seems you used the BAB of a dragon type rather than the troll's original BAB, same with saves.. all saves seems to be calculated wrongly.

I come at F +19 R +11 W +4, claws +23 bite +21.

This creature doesnt't seem much of a challenge to lvl 13 characters though unless you got less than 4 players and some minions that help it flank. Also it doesn't qualify for bleeding critical with a BAB of +10.

*EDIT a mithral breastplate will allow evasion, but still has to be proficient with it.


james maissen wrote:
This is a place where you really need to look at what you are doing, as the old 3e 'non-associated' levels is a place for great abuse. I recall one person making a critter with 23HD (final) that had the casting of a 13th level cleric and called it CR 11...

The worst part was if you combined racial-hd-advancement with non-associated levels. The more racial HD you added, the more levels you could add for the same final CR, since most monsters gained 1 CR per 4 HD :)

Pathfinder RPG's change to using CR to adjudicate non-associated levels is far more balanced, and neatly closes that little "loophole".


Are wrote:


Pathfinder RPG's change to using CR to adjudicate non-associated levels is far more balanced, and neatly closes that little "loophole".

It certainly is an improvement, but still needs work and most importantly an objective look at it afterwards to see that it makes sense.

Consider that Paladin levels are non-associated for everything and you'll start to see that there are issues with it being done mindlessly.

-James


james maissen wrote:


Consider that Paladin levels are non-associated for everything and you'll start to see that there are issues with it being done mindlessly.

Personally, I think Paladin levels should be in the same group as Fighter, Barbarian and Ranger. It fits far better alongside those than alongside Monk and Rogue.

But one should naturally not do this mindlessly.. Or even cruelly ("How can I make this monster as powerful as possible with as low CR as possible" comes to mind as something one DM I know would do)


Are wrote:
james maissen wrote:


Consider that Paladin levels are non-associated for everything and you'll start to see that there are issues with it being done mindlessly.

Personally, I think Paladin levels should be in the same group as Fighter, Barbarian and Ranger. It fits far better alongside those than alongside Monk and Rogue.

But one should naturally not do this mindlessly.. Or even cruelly ("How can I make this monster as powerful as possible with as low CR as possible" comes to mind as something one DM I know would do)

Every DM has urges like that once in a while, it is the evil evil players provoking the poor poor DM though.. honest they do..

Anyway, in 3.0 defense it did state that adding racial HD and class levels were not meant to go together.

Also always check the end result of your encounter, compare it to similar role critters of roughly the same CR.


Remco Sommeling wrote:

The troll is not proficient with breastplate and also negates evasion, better make it a chain shirt +2 for +6 armor bonus instead, the CR of 13 is what I would give it myself so I do not see a problem with that. Though technically it would be CR 12.

Seems you used the BAB of a dragon type rather than the troll's original BAB, same with saves.. all saves seems to be calculated wrongly.

I come at F +19 R +11 W +4, claws +23 bite +21.

This creature doesnt't seem much of a challenge to lvl 13 characters though unless you got less than 4 players and some minions that help it flank. Also it doesn't qualify for bleeding critical with a BAB of +10.

*EDIT a mithral breastplate will allow evasion, but still has to be proficient with it.

Ah thnx for the calculation! I had a level in barbarian that gave proficiency in breastplate, and taking it off I forgot about the breastplate issue.

I did use the attack bonus and saves of a dragon (and skill points) since its type change dto dragon due to the template. Le's check the MM. The MM says... "Do not recalculate HD, BAB, or saves." doh....

I'll just add the barbarian level to qualify for the feat and the armor. And keep it CR14. It will be a challenge with a small party and a horde of mooks to help it flank.

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