Headband of Vast Intelligence


Rules Questions


When the item is created, does the creator have to have Skill ranks in the Skill that is being imparted into the Headband?

ie. Joe the Wizard is creating a Headband of Vast Intelligence +2, so he gets to choose which Skill to "build" into the headband. If he chooses Survival, does he have to have Skill ranks in Survival, or does it not matter?

-- david
Papa.DRB


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Remember that the built-in skill has to be a Knowledge skill.


I'm fairly sure the RAW is silent on this point, which means there is no skill requirement. Maybe someone official has posted otherwise on it but I am not aware of it.

Me, as a houserule, I would make a judgment call that the creator can choose any skill as long as he has at least one rank in that skill. It seems awkward to magically imbue knowledge of a skill into a magic item without knowing something about that skill yourself. Yes, I know, it's magic, so it can do whatever we want it to; but for me, I like to keep some relativity in the way magic works in my game - stuff that seems to relate should relate.


That is not RAW. Page 518 of the Core rulebook.

"A headband of vast intelligence has one skill associated with it per +2 bonus it grants. After being worn for 24 hours, the headband grants a number of skill ranks in those skills equal to the wearer’s total Hit Dice. These ranks do not stack with the ranks a creature already possesses. These skills are chosen when the headband is created. If no skill is listed, the headband is assumed to grant skill ranks in randomly determined Knowledge skills."

The "If no skill is listed", to me, means that if it is in a module and no skill is listed, then "randomly" select a knowledge skill.

-- david
Papa.DRB

Zaister wrote:
Remember that the built-in skill has to be a Knowledge skill.


Zaister wrote:
Remember that the built-in skill has to be a Knowledge skill.

No, I don't think that's true.

Sure, the book says to use random knowledge skills if no skill is listed, but the item's description does not limit the bonus skill(s) to knowledge skills.

There is a post by James Jacobs a year and a half ago (during Beta) where he references using Perception and Diplomacy in this post:

And he says "any baseline skill would work".

Here is the link.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Oh you're right. Seems I misremembered that.

Well crafting has some weird rules. Especially now that caster level as prerequisite has been removed. If you have a high Spellcraft bonus you can create a wondrous item that can create a spell-like effect similar to a spell higher than you might be allowed to know at a much higher caster level you could cast yourself. That makes no sense to me at all.

Example: necklace of fireballs. CL 10th. You need a DC 15 Spellcraft check to create this, assuming you know fireball. That's easily doable with take 10 at 5th level. So why should a necklace you create at 5th level be able to cast a 10d6 fireball? Makes no sense. You can even create it at 3rd level, not even knowing fireball. DC is 20 then. Say, you have an 18 Intelligence and 3 ranks in Spellcraft, you can make the DC 20 check by taking 10. And still get a 10d6 fireball out of it. Makes no sense to me.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

RAW, having ranks in the skill isn't required (otherwise it would be a part of the "Requirements" section of the item). I can see it logically going both ways. Perhaps he simply only needs to read up on the "skill" in question to imbue it with ranks? Perhaps talking with a local rogue about tumbling is enough? Effectively it would be a house rule to require the ranks, one which I think would be personally reasonable.


Yea, RAW sometimes is weird...

Even thought it doesn't say, I am going to require that he or anyone working on it with him have at least 1 skill rank in the skill he imparts into the headband.

Thanks for the suggestions.

-- david
Papa.DRB


I would suggest that if a PC makes his own headband of vast intelligence, it would not grant him extra ranks in a skill right away, but would allow him to learn a skill very rapidly, allowing him to store the ranks in the headband that way. If someone else were to wear the headband, it would still grant the skill ranks that the creator stored in it.


Zaister wrote:

Oh you're right. Seems I misremembered that.

Well crafting has some weird rules. Especially now that caster level as prerequisite has been removed. If you have a high Spellcraft bonus you can create a wondrous item that can create a spell-like effect similar to a spell higher than you might be allowed to know at a much higher caster level you could cast yourself. That makes no sense to me at all.

Example: necklace of fireballs. CL 10th. You need a DC 15 Spellcraft check to create this, assuming you know fireball. That's easily doable with take 10 at 5th level. So why should a necklace you create at 5th level be able to cast a 10d6 fireball? Makes no sense. You can even create it at 3rd level, not even knowing fireball. DC is 20 then. Say, you have an 18 Intelligence and 3 ranks in Spellcraft, you can make the DC 20 check by taking 10. And still get a 10d6 fireball out of it. Makes no sense to me.

You'd have to be lvl 10 to make that because you can't make that kind of item while below it's caster level.

d20PFSRD wrote:
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator's level).


Betatrack wrote:
Zaister wrote:

Oh you're right. Seems I misremembered that.

Well crafting has some weird rules. Especially now that caster level as prerequisite has been removed. If you have a high Spellcraft bonus you can create a wondrous item that can create a spell-like effect similar to a spell higher than you might be allowed to know at a much higher caster level you could cast yourself. That makes no sense to me at all.

Example: necklace of fireballs. CL 10th. You need a DC 15 Spellcraft check to create this, assuming you know fireball. That's easily doable with take 10 at 5th level. So why should a necklace you create at 5th level be able to cast a 10d6 fireball? Makes no sense. You can even create it at 3rd level, not even knowing fireball. DC is 20 then. Say, you have an 18 Intelligence and 3 ranks in Spellcraft, you can make the DC 20 check by taking 10. And still get a 10d6 fireball out of it. Makes no sense to me.

You'd have to be lvl 10 to make that because you can't make that kind of item while below it's caster level.

d20PFSRD wrote:
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator's level).

This has been changed in the latest Errata. Maybe the PRD has not been updated yet, but I believe that it will soon be.

Pathfinder Core Rulebook Errata:
"Page 460
In the Magic Items Description section, under Caster Level, delete the last sentence of the second paragraph."

The paragraph n question is the same you mentioned above. Basically you have to remove the sentence "In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator's level).".

Basically, a Ring of Three Wishes (CL 17, DC 22 to create) could technically be created as soon as a character learns the Forge Ring Feat (7th level); since at that level the character (obviously) cannot know or cast the Wish spell, the DC rises to 27. And that's all.

This is due to the fact that the Ring of Three Wishes is not a Spell Completion or Spell Trigger Item - the only two categories of Magic Items which specifically require the crafter to provide costantly the required spell/s during the creation process.

PRD -> Magic Items -> Magic Item Creation:
"Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."

Of course, it is unlikely for a 7th level character to have access to the money required to craft a Ring of Three Wishes (97.500 gp), not counting the risk of ruining the process (or worse, crafting a Cursed Ring), since he would have to succeed in a Spellcraft check DC 27.
However, the number is not impossible by that level: 7 ranks, +3 Class Skill, +4 Int, +3 Skill Focus (Spellcraft) = 10+ on a d20 (and it is still under debate if the crafter CAN take 10 or not in such a case, not having to roll the dice at all). And maybe his sponsor is an Emperor or something like that...


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Zaister wrote:
Example: necklace of fireballs. CL 10th. You need a DC 15 Spellcraft check to create this, assuming you know fireball. That's easily doable with take 10 at 5th level. So why should a necklace you create at 5th level be able to cast a 10d6 fireball? Makes no sense. You can even create it at 3rd level, not even knowing fireball. DC is 20 then. Say, you have an 18 Intelligence and 3 ranks in Spellcraft, you can make the DC 20 check by taking 10. And still get a 10d6 fireball out of it. Makes no sense to me.

For your 3rd level caster:

The base DC is 15
Add in 5 for not having a caster level of 10
Add in 5 for not having the spell
Total of DC 25
3rd level, Spellcraft: 3 ranks, 3 class skill, 4 attribute for total of +10.
You need to roll a 15 to succeed, so no taking 10 (if your GM allows taking 10 on item creation), and if you fail by 5 or more, you make a cursed item.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Papa-DRB wrote:

When the item is created, does the creator have to have Skill ranks in the Skill that is being imparted into the Headband?

No he does not need to have the skill.

You also need to look at deciding which language(s) the headband will provide the wearer.


RickSummon wrote:
I would suggest that if a PC makes his own headband of vast intelligence, it would not grant him extra ranks in a skill right away, but would allow him to learn a skill very rapidly, allowing him to store the ranks in the headband that way. If someone else were to wear the headband, it would still grant the skill ranks that the creator stored in it.

I like this


DM_Blake wrote:

I'm fairly sure the RAW is silent on this point, which means there is no skill requirement. Maybe someone official has posted otherwise on it but I am not aware of it.

Me, as a houserule, I would make a judgment call that the creator can choose any skill as long as he has at least one rank in that skill. It seems awkward to magically imbue knowledge of a skill into a magic item without knowing something about that skill yourself. Yes, I know, it's magic, so it can do whatever we want it to; but for me, I like to keep some relativity in the way magic works in my game - stuff that seems to relate should relate.

I wouldn't say that it should be absolutely necessary for the creator to have ranks in a skill, I could think of any number of ways for an wizard to create an item that gives skill ranks in a skill he doesn't have.

Take for example a Headband of Vast Intelligence: Blacksmithing....

1. The hair of a skilled blacksmith is used to weave the headband.

2. Headband is dyed with the blood of a blacksmith.

3. The tools of a blacksmith, passed down from father to son for seven generations are alchemically distilled down to create the essence of a blacksmith.

4. As part of the creation process the unfinished headband is worn for a year by a blacksmith.

5. A blacksmith is sacrificed in order to transfer his spirit into the headband.

Etc, etc, you get the idea. So long as a wizard has access to someone with the skill in question there should be no difficulty in finding a way to transfer some of that skill to a magic item.


Where does it say that?

-- david
Papa.DRB

Mistwalker wrote:
You also need to look at deciding which language(s) the headband will provide the wearer.


Zaister wrote:
Remember that the built-in skill has to be a Knowledge skill.

That part was changed from Playtest to Final (I think. Either Beta->Final or even Alpha->Beta. I think the former.)

Liberty's Edge

looking into creating aswell and dont know if agree or like just a +5 to dc when can only cast 2nd level spells and yet add 9th level to item. was looking at Candle of invocation which is only about 8500 gold, so could aford at low levels. why not +5 per spell level away?

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