AT&T to change their unlimited iPad plan


Technology


Allegedly only for new customers (and current customers can opt out without contract renewal), but there is no more unlimited plan.


Another reminder as to why I don't have an iPhone nor will I be in possession of one anytime soon.

Liberty's Edge

AT&T is the devil, and Apple is Satan's apprentice. Apple is all about removing your control from your own electronic devices. No software can be installed on their non-Mac devices without their blessing first. And they can remove any software from your device whenever they feel like it.

This is not the direction we want to take. I recommend everyone to boycott devices which do not allow you the freedom to use your own software as you see fit.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

I am by no means a full blown Kool-Aid drinker in the cult of Mac. But...

Brutal Ben wrote:

AT&T is the devil, and Apple is Satan's apprentice. Apple is all about removing your control from your own electronic devices. No software can be installed on their non-Mac devices without their blessing first. And they can remove any software from your device whenever they feel like it.

This is not the direction we want to take. I recommend everyone to boycott devices which do not allow you the freedom to use your own software as you see fit.

LOL. This is hilarious.

Nutty partisanship FTW!

I will say this about Apple: at least Microsoft only wanted a software monopoly. Apple tried for a hardware and software monopoly, and failed at both. We'll see how it works out for them this time. Hopefully, if they can't learn to play nicely, the market will beat them down, not because it's the "right" thing to do in a dewey eyed idealistic kinda way, but because they will lose to products that perform better.

P.S. Coke is better than Pepsi! Fords are better than Chevys! My Favored Brand is better than Your Favored Brand.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

Sebastian wrote:

I am by no means a full blown Kool-Aid drinker in the cult of Mac. But...

Brutal Ben wrote:

AT&T is the devil, and Apple is Satan's apprentice. Apple is all about removing your control from your own electronic devices. No software can be installed on their non-Mac devices without their blessing first. And they can remove any software from your device whenever they feel like it.

This is not the direction we want to take. I recommend everyone to boycott devices which do not allow you the freedom to use your own software as you see fit.

LOL. This is hilarious.

Nutty partisanship FTW!

I will say this about Apple: at least Microsoft only wanted a software monopoly. Apple tried for a hardware and software monopoly, and failed at both. We'll see how it works out for them this time. Hopefully, if they can't learn to play nicely, the market will beat them down, not because it's the "right" thing to do in a dewey eyed idealistic kinda way, but because they will lose to products that perform better.

P.S. Coke is better than Pepsi! Fords are better than Chevys! My Favored Brand is better than Your Favored Brand.

Yea well, I've got a windows phone that I plan to install android on once the current contract expires and I can get a new phone.

BTW Honda FTW! ;)

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

DMcCoy1693 wrote:


Yea well, I've got a windows phone that I plan to install android on once the current contract expires and I can get a new phone.

BTW Honda FTW! ;)

Windows! OMG!!! Bill Gates hates America!!! He purposefully creates buggy software to ruin computers and bring about a new global dark age!!!

It's funny how poorly Microsoft has done in the non-desktop market. I wonder if it's all the ill will they engendered over the years - kinda like Blockbuster (if I were ever to have irrational hatred of a corporation, it would be Blockbuster - motherf%%&ing late fees!). I've encountered very few Microsoft fans, most seem to advocate for Microsoft because they have some deep spiritual angst against a competitor.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

DMcCoy1693 wrote:

Yea well, I've got a windows phone that I plan to install android on once the current contract expires and I can get a new phone.

BTW Honda FTW! ;)

Off topic, but this reminded me. I was getting grief from a UAW friend about looking at another Honda. "Why are you supporting those Foreign Cars?"

"My last Ford was built in Korea, and my last Honda was built in Marysville, Ohio. Care to define 'foreign car' for me?"

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Sebastian wrote:
It's funny how poorly Microsoft has done in the non-desktop market. I wonder if it's all the ill will they engendered over the years - kinda like Blockbuster (if I were ever to have irrational hatred of a corporation, it would be Blockbuster - motherf***ing late fees!). I've encountered very few Microsoft fans, most seem to advocate for Microsoft because they have some deep spiritual angst against a competitor.

Now see, this is where I always raise eyebrows. I've used Windows boxes since the 90's, (gods, just writing that makes me feel old) and never had any major problems. 98 ran fine, Vista ran fine, 7 runs great. I'm not a microsoft zombie, but I don't see them as evil.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Matthew Morris wrote:


Now see, this is where I always raise eyebrows. I've used Windows boxes since the 90's, (gods, just writing that makes me feel old) and never had any major problems. 98 ran fine, Vista ran fine, 7 runs great. I'm not a microsoft zombie, but I don't see them as evil.

The only problems I've had with Microsoft products are related to viruses/worms. That said, I've had a lot more difficulty with Apple desktops, despite the claims of user friendliness, than I've ever had with Microsoft desktops. That said, I think that using computers is a frustrating experience for a large segment of the population and Microsoft, as the de facto gatekeeper, likely receives the brunt of a lot of that frustration (rightfully or wrongfully).

Still, I didn't know Microsoft zombies exist - at least other than in the context of the console wars. It doesn't generate the love from the technically incompetent like Apple does, and it also doesn't seem to get much good will from the elite technorati who tend to favor Oingo-boingo or some other made up sounding operating system.


Brutal Ben wrote:
AT&T is the devil.

+ FRAKKIN 1!!!!!!!!

I'll never forgive them for the chicanery they pulled on me with Cingular. Ever. AT&T killed my old phone, and when I went to complain, a slick salesman was there to "grandfather" me in to cingular- different name, same company don't you know, hey nonny, hey nonny, ho. I ended up with two bills each month with differing amounts on the same letterhead and yet when I called to get it straightened out, it turned out they were actually two DIFFERENT companies and neither of them could affect each other with respect to the amount of money I paid- I had no idea where my check was going each month. Classic double dipping. Disgusting. I cancelled and went Verizon and had no problems, although my subsequent marriage forced me to go with T-Mobile.


Sebastian wrote:

Nutty partisanship FTW!

I will say this about Apple: at least Microsoft only wanted a software monopoly. Apple tried for a hardware and software monopoly, and failed at both. We'll see how it works out for them this time. Hopefully, if they can't learn to play nicely, the market will beat them down, not because it's the "right" thing to do in a dewey eyed idealistic kinda way, but because they will lose to products that perform better.

P.S. Coke is better than Pepsi! Fords are better than Chevys! My Favored Brand is better than Your Favored Brand.

I feel pretty strongly about Apple and what they're doing, but not because of brand loyalty. They've all but come out and said that they're trying to displace an open hardware model (PC) in favor of a closed model (iPhone OS device ____). Further, I believe that if they're successful, consumers will be the ones who ultimately lose. Less choice would be bad for everyone, or at least bad for everyone who isn't Apple.

So, idealistic or not, my sincere hope is that Apple fails miserably.


Freehold DM wrote:
...although my subsequent marriage forced me to go with T-Mobile.

Wow, now that's brand loyalty. "I'll marry you, hon, but only if you switch to T-Mobile!"

:P

Liberty's Edge

Sebastian wrote:
Windows! OMG!!! Bill Gates hates America!!! He purposefully creates buggy software to ruin computers and bring about a new global dark age!!!

Microsoft deserve the criticism they get, but they did a good job keeping a solid open platform available to us. The "PC Dark Age" has been over a long time ago, and we're still at the latter end of the renaissance computer hardware.

Say what you want about the original "IBM compatibles." Todays machines are a wonder to behold. The fact parts are freely interchangable and I can run whatever I want on it is almost worth having the giant at the door. If I don't want Windows, I run Linux (which I do.)

If Apple does change the landscape, we're going to be stuck with closed hardware, and monopolistic "software stores" that control what we can and can't do with our own computers.

Apple be damned. And to think I once felt sorry for them, and was rooting for the iMac and iPod 10 years ago.

Everyone, get an Android device and be happy in the fact you can still install your own software on it. Even Microsoft is taking that away with their new Windows 7 phones.


bugleyman wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
...although my subsequent marriage forced me to go with T-Mobile.

Wow, now that's brand loyalty. "I'll marry you, hon, but only if you switch to T-Mobile!"

:P

HA!!! I'm telling my wife this one later.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Brutal Ben wrote:

And they can remove any software from your device whenever they feel like it.

That's Amazon and the Kindle.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

bugleyman wrote:


They've all but come out and said that they're trying to displace an open hardware model (PC) in favor of a closed model (iPhone OS device ____).

Well, duh. That'd be a pretty lucrative gig. Of course that's what they're trying to do.

bugleyman wrote:
Further, I believe that if they're successful, consumers will be the ones who ultimately lose. Less choice will be bad for everyone, or at least bad for everyone who isn't Apple.

I don't think Apple can be blamed entirely if consumers are stupid enough to pick an inferior product when superior ones are available. Once Apple gets an actual government sanctioned monopoly, or somehow can stop competitors from pushing the (allegedly) superior open platforms, then I'll care. Once open platform producers start creating good devices that people want to buy in mass numbers (come on, how freaking hard is it to create a product that doesn't look like a s@@&ty Apple clone) or that does something that isn't available on another device, I'll start looking into purchasing such device.

There is no ethical component to the decision to purchase hardware/software. The fact that people think there is an ethical component reflects how overly indoctrinated with brand loyalty they are.


Matthew Morris wrote:
Now see, this is where I always raise eyebrows. I've used Windows boxes since the 90's, (gods, just writing that makes me feel old) and never had any major problems. 98 ran fine, Vista ran fine, 7 runs great. I'm not a microsoft zombie, but I don't see them as evil.

I've used Windows since 3.1. I mostly feel the same way, and definitely don't think MS is "evil."

Then again, let's not forget Windows ME. ;-)


bugleyman wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:
Now see, this is where I always raise eyebrows. I've used Windows boxes since the 90's, (gods, just writing that makes me feel old) and never had any major problems. 98 ran fine, Vista ran fine, 7 runs great. I'm not a microsoft zombie, but I don't see them as evil.

I've used Windows since 3.1. I mostly feel the same way, and definitely don't think MS is "evil."

Then again, let's not forget Windows ME. ;-)

Same here with the exception of ME, Vista, and XP before SP2 came out.


Sebastian wrote:
<SNIP> There is no ethical component to the decision to purchase hardware/software. The fact that people think there is an ethical component reflects how overly indoctrinated with brand loyalty they are.

Hmm. I'm not saying this is the case, but suppose a particular manufacturer could be shown to employ exploitative labor practices. Would you view that information as a valid ethical component in a purchasing decision? That is, one that doesn't require brand-loyalty indoctrination?

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

bugleyman wrote:
Sebastian wrote:

<SNIP>

In the meantime, if the open platform devices offer me what I want, I'll buy them. There is no ethical component to the decision to purchase hardware/software. The fact that people think there is an ethical component reflects how overly indoctrinated with brand loyalty they are.

Hmm. I'm not saying this is the case, but suppose a particular manufacturer could be shown to employ exploitative labor practices. Would you view that as a valid ethical component of a purchasing decision?

Sure, why not. Of course, that would be based on facts, and not ridiculous and poorly reasoned speculation. If the claim was "we shouldn't buy from this company because they want low cost production and some day we will all work for them in the salt mines" (which is significantly closer to the "ethical" claim made regarding Apple), then not so much.


bugleyman wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:
Now see, this is where I always raise eyebrows. I've used Windows boxes since the 90's, (gods, just writing that makes me feel old) and never had any major problems. 98 ran fine, Vista ran fine, 7 runs great. I'm not a microsoft zombie, but I don't see them as evil.

I've used Windows since 3.1. I mostly feel the same way, and definitely don't think MS is "evil."

Then again, let's not forget Windows ME. ;-)

For me, the "Microsoft is Evil" (not really, but let's go with the sensationalism in this thread) feelings began with Windows 95. I came up through DOS (4, if my memory serves). I was used to having to fight with settings, but once you get them right everything is smooth sailing. Windows was just an add-on at first, and I was fine with it. I can even cheerfully say that it did some things better than command line DOS.

That started to change with Windows 95, when it took control out of the hands of the user in exchange for its' weird preferences.

I suspect that no one here has had the pleasure of having to deal with anything like the following:

A particular machine needed to have a com port disabled in Device Manager so a modem could work properly. Every three months or so, Windows 95 decided that there was a disabled com port, and that the user would be better off if the port was activated. And it did so. The first time trying to track down the problem with the modem was a real beast.

Then Windows 98 took away the DOS underlay, removing several much used commands...

My "crusade for user control" (again, not really, but let's stick with the sensationalism) started there, and hasn't ended yet.


Sebastian wrote:
Sure, why not. Of course, that would be based on facts, and not ridiculous and poorly reasoned speculation. If the claim was "we shouldn't buy from this company because they want low cost production and some day we will all work for them in the salt mines" (which is significantly closer to the "ethical" claim made regarding Apple), then not so much.

I believe the desire to avoid having one company accumulate too much market dominance, especially in goods that exhibit strong network effects (like operating systems), can be a rational decision making criteria. I wouldn't call it an issue of ethics, but I don't believe it can all be written off as misguided brand loyalty or salt mine hyperbole, either (though certainly those people exist).

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

bugleyman wrote:
Sebastian wrote:
Sure, why not. Of course, that would be based on facts, and not ridiculous and poorly reasoned speculation. If the claim was "we shouldn't buy from this company because they want low cost production and some day we will all work for them in the salt mines" (which is significantly closer to the "ethical" claim made regarding Apple), then not so much.
I believe the desire to avoid having one company accumulate too much market dominance, especially in goods that exhibit strong network effects (like operating systems), can be a rational decision making criteria. I wouldn't call it an issue of ethics, but I don't believe it can all be written off as misguided brand loyalty or salt mine hyperbole, either (though certainly those people exist).

Clearly you've never worked in a salt mine.

In any event, I still don't think the problem is Apple - it's all their worthless competitors. I mean, come on, couldn't anybody get their s##& together enough to bring a viable mp3 player to market back in the day? There's no reason Apple should've been the one to succeed. And then the iPhone? The iPad?

If another company could be bothered to produce aesthetically pleasing devices, that were intuitive to use, and were relatively safe, they could give Apple a run for their money. If you want to be angry about the potential for Apple to have a closed platform monopoly, direct your anger at the competitors who have their thumbs up their asses and can't sell an open platform as well as Apple sells its products. Any one of them could give (and should be giving) Apple a run for its money.

And, ultimately, the biggest threat to Apple is itself. They're doing a s&$&ty job making their iTunes store usable, they're cutting off interesting developments that use undocumented features of their devices, and it's only a matter of time before they push the design envelope the wrong direction and come up with another hideous looking one in the vein of the teal computer or stupid iLamp desktop.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Brutal Ben wrote:


If Apple does change the landscape, we're going to be stuck with closed hardware, and monopolistic "software stores" that control what we can and can't do with our own computers.

Apple be damned. And to think I once felt sorry for them, and was rooting for the iMac and iPod 10 years ago.

Actually it's more likely since Jobs won't license his software, that we'll see somewhat of a repition of what happened with the Mac. All it will take is for someone to actually achieve a comparable quality product with the same ease of use. Once someone comes out with a product that does what the iPad does... and does it cheaper then the landscape will change.

Apple led the charge in freeing us from floppy disks, in making Firewire than 2 generations of USB standard equipment on desktops. Right now the iPad seems to be a monopoly because no one has ever made a device like this before... It's not a scrunched notepad or an enlarged smartphone. So given that this is an innovative device, it's somewhat petty to begrudge the fact that they are king of this hill that they made.

But then again, the last time they had a position like this was with the Apple 2. At one time we thought that no one would ever make the slightest dent in the dominance of Internet Explorer.

The moral: things change... and in the tech world dominance isn't forever.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sebastian wrote:

There's no reason Apple should've been the one to succeed. And then the iPhone? The iPad?

Let's give some credit to Steve Jobs. What he has is a vision.. one that's not locked into a pre-existing box. And he's persistent.. noncompromising in that vision. He didn't just say... oh... lets make an Apple Netbook, or.... lets enlarge the smartphone. Remember how radical the first iMac seemed to the general technorati... how it was an approach that "would never last?" Remember when Michael Dell who told Jobs to simply close up shop?

However... like the rest of us Steve Jobs is mortal and he's clearly in his twilight years. The iPad is his final work... his magnum opus. It's questionable whether Apple will be able to retain the competitive gestalt once he passes on.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Disenchanter wrote:


Then Windows 98 took away the DOS underlay, removing several much used commands...

The DOS underlay you so fondly cherish was also a fatal limitation.. it meant that your total operating system was confined to what would be possible with 8 bit hardware.

Have you looked at the structure of OS X? It's got a solid BSD UNIX core. with the bulk of the unix command tricks available to you.

If your really want to, you could even run Xwindows eiteher side by siide or in full screen mode and run whatever window managing system you desire.

Liberty's Edge

Disenchanter, do you still run a version of Linux, or have I mixed you up with another Paizonian?

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

LazarX wrote:


Let's give some credit to Steve Jobs. What he has is a vision.. one that's not locked into a pre-existing box. And he's persistent.. noncompromising in that vision. He didn't just say... oh... lets make an Apple Netbook, or.... lets enlarge the smartphone. Remember how radical the first iMac seemed to the general technorati... how it was an approach that "would never last?" Remember when Michael Dell who told Jobs to simply close up shop?

However... like the rest of us Steve Jobs is mortal and he's clearly in his twilight years. The iPad is his final work... his magnum opus. It's questionable whether Apple will be able to retain the competitive gestalt once he passes on.

I don't begrudge Jobs the iPod, I'm just saying that everyone knew there was an opportunity for such a device, but Apple was the one that stuck the landing the best. It's not like he somehow cheated the iPod into existence or crammed it into the market using a huge hoard of cash (*cough* Xbox *cough*).

People also seem to forgot how stupid and unsuccessful so many Apple products have been. They swing for the fences at Apple, and part of swinging for the fences is making big mistakes (Apple TV, the Newton).

Also, I have it on good authority that Jobs is not mortal, so I have to dispute that claim.


Andrew Turner wrote:
Disenchanter, do you still run a version of Linux, or have I mixed you up with another Paizonian?

You haven't confused me with someone else.

My primary OS is Ubuntu 10.04 currently. And I do dabble in other OSs from time to time. Except for Mac OSs. Nothing personal against them, I just do not feel like spending the money on additional hardware. (I was considering making one of the "Hackintoshes" until Apple cracked down hard on the vendors that sold the hardware boot loader.)

Liberty's Edge

Sebastian wrote:
My Favored Brand is better than Your Favored Brand.

NO! MINE IS!

*pouts in the corner*

Liberty's Edge

LazarX wrote:
Brutal Ben wrote:


If Apple does change the landscape, we're going to be stuck with closed hardware, and monopolistic "software stores" that control what we can and can't do with our own computers.

Apple be damned. And to think I once felt sorry for them, and was rooting for the iMac and iPod 10 years ago.

Actually it's more likely since Jobs won't license his software, that we'll see somewhat of a repition of what happened with the Mac. All it will take is for someone to actually achieve a comparable quality product with the same ease of use. Once someone comes out with a product that does what the iPad does... and does it cheaper then the landscape will change.

Apple led the charge in freeing us from floppy disks, in making Firewire than 2 generations of USB standard equipment on desktops. Right now the iPad seems to be a monopoly because no one has ever made a device like this before...

This is not a change to the system. What Apple is doing is locking you out from choosing who you want to purchase your software from. They also have the ability to remotely remove software, or even lock down your iPhone.

And yes the other companies are starting to do that now. Apple has set a nasty precedent in that the hardware manufactures control where you purchase the software, and what software you are allowed to purchase.

And now Microsoft is playing the game now since Apple is doing it already, and Apple is the monopoly. Now its okay for Microsoft to do the same thing.

I guarantee everyone, that if this goes through the computer revolution will come to a complete end. Ironically the manufactures will end up making less money in the long run on it too, but short sighted greed always guarantees that this will be the case.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Brutal Ben wrote:


I guarantee everyone, that if this goes through the computer revolution will come to a complete end. Ironically the manufactures will end up making less money in the long run on it too, but short sighted greed always guarantees that this will be the case.

Where can I collect on the guarantee once you're proven wrong? Because there's no way on earth or in heaven, barring extreme changes to IP laws or a government imposed monopoly, that the computer revolution will just grind to a halt. If it really gets that bad, someone will come out with a magical open source device that s%@*s ice cream and smells like fresh baked cookies to knock down all those evil, evil, oh so evil closed devices (which are also evil).

I get that you hate the Apple. But that's no excuse for intellectual laziness. Other companies do exist and will compete. There isn't going to be some entropic end to technological development because Apple is (momentarily) popular.

Short sightedness isn't limited to greed...


The Registers' article on the subject:

A Wired poll for those interested.

Liberty's Edge

Sebastian wrote:
Because there's no way on earth or in heaven, barring extreme changes to IP laws or a government imposed monopoly, that the computer revolution will just grind to a halt.

What makes you think they wouldn't try. All they have to do is claim that it is to help control the traffic of child porn. Don't underestimate how a moral panic can be used to manipulate the government. Thats the reason why marijuana is still illegal even though its safer than all the pain killers and mood elevators that are prescribed every day.

Once software control becomes the majority, they will try to snuff out the rest one way or another.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Brutal Ben wrote:


This is not a change to the system. What Apple is doing is locking you out from choosing who you want to purchase your software from. They also have the ability to remotely remove software, or even lock down your iPhone.

And yes the other companies are starting to do that now. Apple has set a nasty precedent in that the hardware manufactures control where you purchase the software, and what software you are allowed to purchase.

And now Microsoft is playing the game now since Apple is doing it already, and Apple is the monopoly. Now its okay for Microsoft to do the same thing.

I guarantee everyone, that if this goes through the computer revolution will come to a complete end. Ironically the manufactures will end up making less money in the long run on it too, but short sighted greed always guarantees that this will be the case.

1. the ability of remote lockdown is a NECCESSARY one. One that Apple will provide to Enterprise deployments so that lost smartphones and iPads can be remote wiped of sensitive information, or just your personal information so that it doesn't get kept by someone else. I personally like the idea that if my iPad gets swiped on the subway, I can call Apple support and tell them to push the "red button" on my unit if it's an iPhone.

2. On the so 'called computer revolution" oh give me a break. If Microsoft with it's decades of monopoly, it's control of 99+ percent of all PCs on the planet could not end the tide of computer revolution, Apple has no chance of doing so. Apple hasn't seized an existing market, it's merely created a new one, like it did with the Apple 2. And there is no indication that it's hold on this new market will last any longer than it's hold on the original PC market... (which is still 95 percent plus Windows btw) There is absolutely nothing preventing anyone else from creating new niches.... save the lack of imagination that Microsoft displayed in creating the Zune.

3. The challengers to Apple's hegemony are already in place. Microsoft isn't going to just lie down and die... and even more significantly... Google is just beginning to flex it's muscle. And the big media companies are desparately waiting for a new contender... because they'll never be content to have Apple call the shots forever.

Effectively while Apple will not hold to it's current domminance... It will have one lasting effect. It's raised the bar required to contest with it... and ultimately the consumer benefits.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Brutal Ben wrote:
Sebastian wrote:
Because there's no way on earth or in heaven, barring extreme changes to IP laws or a government imposed monopoly, that the computer revolution will just grind to a halt.

What makes you think they wouldn't try. All they have to do is claim that it is to help control the traffic of child porn. Don't underestimate how a moral panic can be used to manipulate the government. Thats the reason why marijuana is still illegal even though its safer than all the pain killers and mood elevators that are prescribed every day.

Once software control becomes the majority, they will try to snuff out the rest one way or another.

Uh...yeah...I'd be more worried about the totalitarian regime/gross stupidity of the people in your dystopic future than not having the latest and greatest gadget.

Seriously, how much is this guarantee for? I'm in for $10k if you mean it.

Liberty's Edge

Wow, there is some pretty strong and downright bizzare anti Apple feeling here.

I just don't get it ... I'm sorry, but I really don't ...

The Exchange

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Marc Radle wrote:

Wow, there is some pretty strong and downright bizzare anti Apple feeling here.

I just don't get it ... I'm sorry, but I really don't ...

I don't agree with it, but I get where it's coming from. There is a very large tech savvy feeling that opennes is akin to godliness. While I agree that openness is nice, as a consumer I just want a product that works great for me. If a part of the entire package is not being able to tweak every single portion of the product or not get an app approved that I wanted, oh well. It's all a part of the package.

Sebastian is completely right though. I just don't understand why no one else has been able to make a comparable product recently. In fact, I'm completely amazed that the closest competitor to the iPhone is android, and to be honest, I don't think it's that close yet (getting there, but not close yet).

It's the same deal with the mac computers. I don't care that I don't have the choice, or that it's a little more expensive. I'm perfectly happy with my computer and it does everything I want to. I'll just say that my last four work computers have all been bad, although the current is "acceptable"... so long as you can get past the 3-4 random blue screens I've gotten in the 3 months I've worked here. Mind you, I can't install anything so it isn't user customization that's the problem.

The Exchange

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Oh, as for the original topic. I actually am looking forward to the new pricing plan. For the short term (I.E. 2-3 years) it will decrease my expenditure. I checked my 2 year iPhone history and the most I've ever used in a month is about 500 mb, most average below 200 mb.

If I owned an iPad though, I'd want more. Thankfully most use of an iPad will be in wifi areas anyways, so that should alleviate the problem.

Liberty's Edge

Alizor wrote:

Oh, as for the original topic. I actually am looking forward to the new pricing plan. For the short term (I.E. 2-3 years) it will decrease my expenditure. I checked my 2 year iPhone history and the most I've ever used in a month is about 500 mb, most average below 200 mb.

If I owned an iPad though, I'd want more. Thankfully most use of an iPad will be in wifi areas anyways, so that should alleviate the problem.

I just passed the one-month mark and my total 3G iPad use was 45MB used, 205MB remaining and today's my last day. Unfortunately, no rollover.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Alizor wrote:


Sebastian is completely right though. I just don't understand why no one else has been able to make a comparable product recently. In fact, I'm completely amazed that the closest competitor to the iPhone is android, and to be honest, I don't think it's that close yet (getting there, but not close yet).

Android isn't a competitor to the iPhone, but the OS the iPhone runs on. The iPhone however is not just the software it's also the hardware package. So you need to ask... what Hardware/Android competitor stacks up against the iPhone/iPhoneOS combo?

As to the first part of your question.. that's not hard. Apple did not simply put up a list of off the shelf components and jam them into a spiffy looking case. It took years, a heck of a lot of manhours (80+hours a week isn't uncommon for Apple techs during design peaks), and a good deal of expense and resources to come up that problem.

You can't outdesign Apple on the cheap. The eMacs people tried to do that with the original iMac. I saw on on a PCExpo in Javits, NYC. If you can't even get the presenter motivated by the product he was showing... what does that tell you?

The Exchange

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LazarX wrote:

Android isn't a competitor to the iPhone, but the OS the iPhone runs on. The iPhone however is not just the software it's also the hardware package. So you need to ask... what Hardware/Android competitor stacks up against the iPhone/iPhoneOS combo?

As to the first part of your question.. that's not hard. Apple did not simply put up a list of off the shelf components and jam them into a spiffy looking case. It took years, a heck of a lot of manhours (80+hours a week isn't uncommon for Apple techs during design peaks), and a good deal of expense and resources to come up that problem.

You can't outdesign Apple on the cheap. The eMacs people tried to do that with the original iMac. I saw on on a PCExpo in Javits, NYC. If you can't even get the presenter motivated by the product he was showing... what does that tell you?

Btw, when I say Android, I'm not differentiating the product from the OS. To the end user, it's all one package. So when I say Android (or I think when alot of people say it) they mean the Android "family" of products. I've looked at some of the products, they aren't that amazing and just seem clunkly when compared to my iPhone.

As for the quality question... I know it takes alot of work, but I know that some of these other companies have good workers as well. It just seems like too many are taking the "cheap" approach and I just don't understand why no one else can make a good quality product.a


Wired's poll results plus other sources suggest the new plan isn't going to hurt too many people. (Those that use over 2GB per month, can stick with the current plan.)

Grand Lodge

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Alizor wrote:


Btw, when I say Android, I'm not differentiating the product from the OS. To the end user, it's all one package. So when I say Android (or I think when alot of people say it) they mean the Android "family" of products. I've looked at some of the products, they aren't that amazing and just seem clunkly when compared to my iPhone.

You get two computers running Windows 7 Ultimate. One is a cheap jack pile of components slapped together by Joe the Computer shop. Another is the latest thing from the Dell Alienware line of gaming laptops.

Technically they're both running the same Operating System, but I'm sure you'll agree that they are far from the same product.

Apple doesn't really have much interest in software... save to sell it's hardware. And to sell the hardware they'll make sure that if they don't make the software themselves, they'll buy the best they can get. iTunes is a classic example. The Apple folks were wowed by an application originally known as SoundJam. They bought the tech and it became the core of what would eventually be known as iTunes.

It's a matter of what you're willing to bear, what you're willing to commit, and what you're willing to risk. If you're going to take Apple on, you simply need to be serious about making a real competing product.

Apple does have serious competition. But it does a good job at raising the standards that they need to compete against. And that's a good thing for both Apple's customers... and the customers of it's competition.


LazarX wrote:
Alizor wrote:


Btw, when I say Android, I'm not differentiating the product from the OS. To the end user, it's all one package. So when I say Android (or I think when alot of people say it) they mean the Android "family" of products. I've looked at some of the products, they aren't that amazing and just seem clunkly when compared to my iPhone.

You get two computers running Windows 7 Ultimate. One is a cheap jack pile of components slapped together by Joe the Computer shop. Another is the latest thing from the Dell Alienware line of gaming laptops.

Technically they're both running the same Operating System, but I'm sure you'll agree that they are far from the same product.

Did you get burned by a "Joe the Computer shop?" Or do you just not know anyone that can really assemble computers?

I can tell you that I can assemble a desktop for Windows 7 ultimate 64 bit for under $1000 that would compare favorably with one of the $5000 Alienware gaming computers.

No, it won't be the same. But, for the most part, most people won't even know the difference unless they look at the case.

Now, with specific benchmark tests - or specific programs, there can be an obvious difference.

For the most part, Apple products are overpriced for their components. Their "closed architecture" does do one thing: makes them certain of how things will interact with their devices. This is both good and bad. But this really isn't the thread for that.

Liberty's Edge

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Andrew Turner wrote:
Alizor wrote:

Oh, as for the original topic. I actually am looking forward to the new pricing plan. For the short term (I.E. 2-3 years) it will decrease my expenditure. I checked my 2 year iPhone history and the most I've ever used in a month is about 500 mb, most average below 200 mb.

If I owned an iPad though, I'd want more. Thankfully most use of an iPad will be in wifi areas anyways, so that should alleviate the problem.

I just passed the one-month mark and my total 3G iPad use was 45MB used, 205MB remaining and today's my last day. Unfortunately, no rollover.

I jut passed the 6 day mark and I am over 3G un usage. Granted a big part of that is because of downloading my entire Paizo PDF collection from MoblieMe and currently iPad is the only Internet I have at home until it is installed tomorrow. Most likely I will average under 2g a month...

Grand Lodge

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Sebastian wrote:


Also, I have it on good authority that Jobs is not mortal, so I have to dispute that claim.

Unfortunately I've seen the man in his last few public appearances.. He's been through a life-threathening medical crisis for the last couple of years and it's left his mark. He's gaunt, and he now longer has the energy he used to have in his keynotes and his public appearances. I get the distinct impression that he's spent physically, not as much mentally though. I think he'll hang around long enough to refine the iPad over the next couple of years but after that I think the curtain goes down for the last time on the Jobs eras.


And other networks follow suit.

((Another article on the same thing.))

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