Good Witch Builds


Advice


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I want to make a high level witch (~15th level), but I want it to be The Awesome too.

Does anyone know of any good witch builds? I'm not familiar with the class and don't really know what meshes well.


Ravingdork wrote:
Does anyone know of any good witch builds? I'm not familiar with the class and don't really know what meshes well.

Clarify please, GOOD as in will kick butt or GOOD as in the alignment..


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
JimmyNids wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Does anyone know of any good witch builds? I'm not familiar with the class and don't really know what meshes well.
Clarify please, GOOD as in will kick butt or GOOD as in the alignment..

Good as in mechanically and conceptually awesome.


Ravingdork wrote:


Good as in mechanically and conceptually awesome.

Still working on an optimized build but you will most likely be C/N, N/E, or C/E as a powerful witch, many of their fun abilities(being part of a hag coven for starters) are on the icky/evil side of things.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
JimmyNids wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:


Good as in mechanically and conceptually awesome.
Still working on an optimized build but you will most likely be C/N, N/E, or C/E as a powerful witch, many of their fun abilities(being part of a hag coven for starters) are on the icky/evil side of things.

Well that's fortunate. I greatly enjoy such characters.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I think that pretty much any Wiz/Sorc build will be fine with the Witch. Funky familiar and hexes aside, the Witch is a Wizard with an odd spell list.


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Playing a Witch right now, and it's pretty tough.

Here's some suggestions:

Hexes: Cackle is your friend. Pick up Fortune right away, follow with Cackle, evil eye and misfortune.

Then you don't need spells to be awesome in combat. Round 1: Fortune, cackle, Round 2: Evil eye, cackle, Round 3: Misfortune, cackle.

Evil Eye plus cackle is especially nasty - because the saving throw becomes irrelevant (evil eye lasts for one round if they make their save and cackle extends the duration by a round every time it's used)

Spells: Depends on your party makeup. In my case I've been picking up the healing/curing type spells and throwing on some battlefield control. Debuffs and buffs are less necessary since your hexes take care of that quite nicely.

A few spells not to be missed (level 1-5): Grease, Mage armor, obscuring mist, delay poison, glitterdust, web, fly, sleet storm, stinking cloud, Black tentacles, dimension door, Magic jar (Early entry!!!), dominate person, Wall of Thorns (your only wall - but it's a good one)

Oh - and you're a witch, so for that reason alone you must take Baleful Polymorph so you can turn people into pigs and newts!

As for familiar, I'm a bit conflicted. I went with Bat to get silent image, but the Raven also has a nice spell compliment. The Rat gives the most useful ability (a fort save bonus).

No word how Improved Familiar works with Witch yet. I assume you continue the progression of your previous familiar???

Attributes: Just like a Wizard. Everything you can spare into Int. Dex and Con are secondary, everything else is negotiable.


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Treantmonk wrote:
Oh - and you're a witch, so for that reason alone you must take Baleful Polymorph so you can turn people into pigs and newts!

You should always avoid the newt form for baleful polymorph, since the target for some reason can get better from it.

Sovereign Court

Slumber is unbelievably good, i'd pick it up before misfortune.


I'd settle for a debuff or healing role.

get your cauldron hex (brew potion at first level?) and the healing/fortune/ward/cackle combinations going on and get the major healing hex going. with your curing spells memorised, you can forge healing potions, hit every friend with a cure moderate once per day and a cure serious once per day, in addiotn to your memorised cure spells. Ward your best friend in combat and cackle to keep it up while you do other support actions.

For debuffer, the witch is loaded with with them (evil eye, misfortune etc.) Take cackle as well, and concentrate of your nastier spells to take people out. If you focus on this, get yourself the relevent spell focus feats to bash down your opponent's saving throws, because there is nothing worse than watching your opponent negate your vital resources with a casual save. (I have a regular player that uses dwarves ad nauseum, which remains a pain due to their massive saving throw bonuses, negating anything bu the most unbalanced sorcerer and wizard encounters)

alternatively, you can go down the faceman road, load up your Cha as a secondary attribute and use the charm spells and hexes. another idea is a summoner, using spell focus (conjouration) and any summoner friendly spells to utilse the summon monster ranges.

as for making it cool..........

get your knowledge nature on, and act like your familiar. Get the fox familiar and dress in reds, oranges and whites with a fox mask. Or get an octopus and carry it around dungeons in a glass bowl (learn mending and create water though). your familiar is an integral part of the witch, so I'd focus on emulating your new 'best friend'.

Batts

Scarab Sages

Alexander Kilcoyne wrote:
Slumber is unbelievably good, i'd pick it up before misfortune.

+1

Its power and DC are scaleable, its usable nearly at will, and so far the witch in my game has been responsible for a lot of coup de grace deaths. YMMV

Scarab Sages

redcelt32 wrote:
Alexander Kilcoyne wrote:
Slumber is unbelievably good, i'd pick it up before misfortune.

+1

Its power and DC are scaleable, its usable nearly at will, and so far the witch in my game has been responsible for a lot of coup de grace deaths. YMMV

+2

I recently had to stop playing a Curse of the Crimson Throne game, but I played a witch, and man was she AWESOME. Hexes are great, and the spells required me to try and play more tactically. I actually took the viper familiar which, while probably not the BEST choice, gave me offensive options for when I needed them (which was rarely, but it's only one spell to prepare).

I remember one random fight where my group was up against a bunch of imps. Invisible ones, of course. I had my group gather around my witch a ready an action to close their eyes when she told them to (In a language the imps didn't speak, of course). Then, when the imps all gathered around, Glitterdust the buggers. Hit all but one of them, and the last one... Slumber Hex :D

Actually, conveniently enough, the imps tended to save against the blindness one at a time, which gave me clear targets for Slumber. Then, the Enlarged, Glaive-wielding Cleric of Shelyn (Good Domain for Align Weapon :D:D) went to town with Coups. It was my witch's shining moment, and after that she always had a lot of respect.

(On a side note, I think Slumber is actually TOO good, and should probably be nerfed... /dons fireproof suit)

[** Just in case anyone is curious, it was a group of 4 (Cleric of Shelyn, Witch, Summoner, and an Alchemist), all at level 3, against 5 imps.]

Scarab Sages

Davor wrote:
(On a side note, I think Slumber is actually TOO good, and should probably be nerfed... /dons fireproof suit)

I think it does have the potential to be abused, so I sort of agree, but I am really hesitant to change it, primarily because its one of the few potent direct attack powers the witch can use. Its quite fitting and I like the fact that they have a power that is sort of scary to everyone. As long as a witch is using it, and not someone taking a l level dip to get a freebie, I'm okay with it, mostly because compared to what some cleric, druid, and wizard builds can do, its not over-powering.

Treantmonk wrote:
Playing a Witch right now, and it's pretty tough.

I would love to see your insight into some of the 6 new base classes Treantmonk, especially the witch and summoner. I will be sure to pass on your suggestions and experiences to the witch in my game, he has been working hard to figure out what direction(s) to go with his character.


I'm also playing a Witch, though I'm using the Grippli Character race (go go magic frog :)) Only level 7, went with Raven familiar, 15 point buy, no traits.

Hexes
1. CAuldron
2. Flight
3. slumber
4. tongues

feats:
1. scribe scroll
2. Def COmbat training (a must for small casters, IMO)
3. Combat Casting
4. Imp Init

Spell list is themed- he is an itinerant potion and scroll seller, so he has lots of healing, buff, and some utility spells that can be easily made into potions, then he has a ton of area effects, mostly mists, fogs, etc. Black Tentacle and Dimension Door though were clutch in our last encounter, teleported the heavy hitters up a steep slope, then tentacled teh BBEG until they could move into position on him.

Still, if you are used to playing a damage dealer, it can be a bit frustrating. The witch plays like a support caster, IMO, since Slumber can only be used once per target per day, it's great for getting out of trouble, but not so good for large groups of bad guys. In the final encounter of the day, we were on a small boat, and the cleric was tied up, so having access to healing spells kept the party up and running, but it was a drag for me to play the healer, ya know?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:

I want to make a high level witch (~15th level), but I want it to be The Awesome too.

Does anyone know of any good witch builds? I'm not familiar with the class and don't really know what meshes well.

The Awesome is what you do with it. There are a lot of possiblities with a Witch character the question is what role do you want to play? You can blast, you can crowd control, you can do an amazing amount of healing, you're basically a combo of 1st edition magic-user and cleric, depending on your choice of spells, and some Hex tricks to refine your working concept.


She is currently only one of my back up characters, but even at 5th level my witch is a brutal controller. Slumber is just devastating to ANYTHING. Misfortune is essentially one of my favorite debuffs from 3.5 (unluck spell). Throw in cackle as the third hex, and she burns no resources all day long. Just have the lesser classes do what they are bred for. Huge spell variety just makes it ridiculous.


HALF-ORC. You can put your two points into Int, and Orcish Ferocity is incredible for a caster, especially one with cures. Saved me twice a couple days ago, and according to the DM, averted TPK. (I'm the healer.) If you're the healer, use spells for that rather than hexes, since you often need to cure someone more than once a day and you have more fun things to do with hexes, anyhow.

Slumber is good, but my DM pretty easily got around it by mobbing me so much with mooks that I was rather less interested in making the trog-barb sleepy. Slumber's not even all that useful at the lowest levels -- I certainly regretted taking it at first level, when my fellow party members had better things to do than stand around waiting to coup de grace my target. Go for Evil Eye instead, since it can last a few rounds. Pick up Slumber next, if then. By 15th, you won't have to worry so much about coup de grace.

Cauldron is abominable. Early access to a mediocre feat? Nah. Your Hexes are more valuable than feats. You'd rather have Scribe Scroll, anyway, to back up your spells known and to feed your Familiar new spells. (I will have a chubby bat, I tell you that.)

Flight is always great for a caster, and even at low levels it means never having to memorize featherfall. With a caster's crappy Str, it's also good for jumping off ledges in dungeons without having to roll acrobatics.

Note that Enchant isn't actually Enchant Whatever, but more like Diplomacy. It might be okay if you're going the Enchantress route and have decent Charisma.

Pick up one of the second-level debuff hexes (Agony or Retribution) since they work at 60 feet rather than 30. Waxen Image looks like fun, but I think I'd rather use cast-and-cackle hexes -- with unlimited usage, why not use one a turn?

As to Familiars, I think Viper is one of your best bets. First of all, blasty spells are a lot of fun and in practise, not nearly so bad as people seem to think, and secondly, many of the spells on the Witch's list are mind-affecting, and most are Will saves. Still, I went with Bat, because Shadow Conjuration/Evocation not only give access to spells not otherwise on the Witch's spell list but also allow a simulation of spontaneous casting. Sure, it uses up higher spell slots, but that's less of a consideration when most of your actions in combat can be hexes.

Still, I think one of the Awesomest things about Witch is that she's an almost-capable healer who is actually fun to play. You still need a way to get restorations, though.


Ravingdork wrote:
Does anyone know of any good witch builds? .

I like mine busty but thats just me


threemilechild wrote:
Stuff.

Agree, or at least don't disagree with most of the points made. A couple things though:

1) Enchantment works great with a low Charisma since it can be used instead of diplomacy to solicit a friendly reaction even if your CHA is terrible (which is what my current witch does)

2) Witches get access to Restoration...are you using the final playtest rules???


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
threemilechild wrote:
Cauldron is abominable. Early access to a mediocre feat? Nah.

What? You do know you can create ANY potion you want provided you can make the increased Spellcraft DC, right? Unlike wands, staffs, and scrolls you DON'T need the spell on your spell list. That makes the feat almost as versatile as scribe scroll.


Awesome. I thought I was, but that srd hasn't been updated, I see. My DMs all love ability damage. Healer might be the primary use for a Witch, even if Slumber ends up nerfed.

So you don't have to use further Cha-based skill checks to get NPCs to actually tell you anything or do anything? The Charm Hex (which is what I meant, obviously) is better than I thought, too. My fellow pcs are more often belligerent than diplomatic, but if I can get it over quickly this might be useful.

Lastly, perhaps Brew Potion isn't as bad as I thought; some people are discussing whether you need the spell to brew a potion. Slightly less useful for a Witch (who can make cures anyway) than for a sorcerer, but, still. (Ravingdork, I just saw that, thought I'd put up a link. I still wouldn't trade a hex for a feat, though, even a feat two levels early.)


threemilechild wrote:


Lastly, perhaps Brew Potion isn't as bad as I thought;

When my cleric got locked down at the bow of the boat we were on, it was my witches sizable collection of CLW and CMW potions for sale that kept the group going. In fact, they still owe me for those....

Sovereign Court

threemilechild wrote:

Awesome. I thought I was, but that srd hasn't been updated, I see. My DMs all love ability damage. Healer might be the primary use for a Witch, even if Slumber ends up nerfed.

Completely disagree. The witch is a secondary healer; her abilities are powerful debuff's and controller type spells.

Slumber has no HD limit; it's a save-or-suck that gets more and more potent as the witch levels. If its not working out for you because your DM keeps mobbing you with mooks, perhaps have a think about what that means. IMHO slumber needs a minor nerf.

Cauldron is a hex for a feat, and a +4 bonus to a skill on top of it.

Like treant said, enchantment is great for low charisma witches; and there aren't many reason to have high charisma as a witch anyway.

Having seen the witch alongside a wizard for some time... I actually think the Witch is more powerful. Especially at low levels.


I'm pretty concerned about Evil Eye + Cackle abuse. At higher levels giving your opponent a -4 penalty on saves without a saving throw can be extremely powerful and makes otherwise risky/bad spells like save or die spells almost risk-free to use.

Anyways, a familiar I feel is being overlooked is the fox. It might have a few pretty bad spells like animate rope, but mirror image, major image, reverse gravity and time stop are all awesome.


Cauldron is a hex for an extra feat, but even assuming it's a feat I want, I wouldn't consider that trade. (Well, Leadership...) A witch needs to keep her Spellcraft up anyhow to learn new spells and it's not as if brewing potions is difficult, so the +4 in Alchemy isn't generally that useful, leaving the main benefit to Cauldron that you have access to (25gp each) potion-making at 1st level rather than at 3rd.

Even aside from whether it's worth a hex, I still don't think Brew Potion is a great deal since a witch DOES have Cure spells. I'd go with Scribe Scroll instead, since it's cheaper, remains useful for any spell level, and is how to back up your squishy familiar AKA spellbook. Sure, the fighter can't use scrolls, but how often is he going to want to drink a potion in the middle of combat, anyway? Most fighters I know would rather fall over than take a round off, even if they can avoid provoking AOO. IF you're the only healer and you're concerned that you'll fall, buy a couple potions for emergencies -- that 25-50 gp is nothing compared to what you'll waste using potions you brew as everyday healing, compared to scrolls or wands for healing.

Now, if you're the only caster in a game without magic shops and you have no shortage of gold, it might be useful and fun to have access to spells like ProtEvil (weird that it's not on the Witch's list, but it's not) and Magic Fang. But as far as Brew Potion having a killer app, access to CLW is it and you already have that.

@Alexander Kilcoyne: Yeah, I wasn't clear. I didn't mean that always curing hp damage should be a witch's sole role in the party, more that THE beautiful thing about the class is that she makes a party functional (by providing healing when necessary) without being incredibly dull (because she can do all sorts of nifty things without giving up healing ability). I had fun the other night, even after preparing NOTHING but mage armor and cures. Pretty rare for a cleric to be able to say that.


Ellington wrote:

I'm pretty concerned about Evil Eye + Cackle abuse. At higher levels giving your opponent a -4 penalty on saves without a saving throw can be extremely powerful and makes otherwise risky/bad spells like save or die spells almost risk-free to use.

Anyways, a familiar I feel is being overlooked is the fox. It might have a few pretty bad spells like animate rope, but mirror image, major image, reverse gravity and time stop are all awesome.

It's worse than that. I'm hoping Cackle gets nerfed for final print. (Though it should remain as an ability - I get great joy out of having my witch character cackle evily)

You can not only maintain evil eye indefinitely without a save (or at least the saving throw result is irrelevant) - you can maintain MULTIPLE evil eyes without a save since you can cackle every round as a move action in addition to applying another hex. Hit their Attack rolls on round 1, AC on round 2, then Saving throw on round 3. Then your Misfortune hex is likely to stick.

Round 1: Opponent has -4 to attack with no save (effectively no save)
Round 2: Opponent has -4 to attack AND AC no save
Round 3: Opponent has -4 to attack, AC and Saving throws no save
Round 4: Opponent has -4 to attack, AC and Saving throws with no save, and possibly has to roll twice on any of these rolls and take the worse result.

Against a plethora of enemies this isn't gamebreaking by any means, but against a single uber-tough opponent - the witch is devestating, without even casting spells.

This gets even more abusive if the witch passed around a couple fortune hexes before the battle (now the buffed allies can use a fortune effect EVERY round!!! This abuse is only available for one combat per day - but it's crazy good - especially when combined with the tactic above.)

The obvious fix as far as I'm concerned is either:

a) Limit witches to one hex per round, regardless of time required to use hex

b) Cackle can only affect any hex one time

or both. Hopefully the developers came to a similar conclusion. We will find out soon enough I guess.

Liberty's Edge

Iczer wrote:
debuff

What is a debuff? Is that a word?

Shadow Lodge

Stefan Hill wrote:
Iczer wrote:
debuff
What is a debuff? Is that a word?

Imposing a negative condition on someone.

Evil Eye and Misfortune "debuff" enemies making them less dangerous.

I'm sure it will be added to a dictionary sometime soon. It's widely used in gaming circles.


Treantmonk wrote:


It's worse than that. I'm hoping Cackle gets nerfed for final print.

Agh! Curse you, Treantmonk! :)

That continuously building hex nonsense was my WHOLE PLAN when I saw the class. Made me cackle with glee in real life. I was hoping, with all the paranoia over Slumber, that nobody would notice...

Actually, did it really work out? I've noticed with a few other casters that I've played that in most cases, I really don't want to be stationary within 30' of my victims.

Dark Archive

Can you take Leadership at level 7 and have a couple of 1st level Witches as Followers, all with the Coven Hex?

That might be amusing.


Treantmonk wrote:
Ellington wrote:

I'm pretty concerned about Evil Eye + Cackle abuse. At higher levels giving your opponent a -4 penalty on saves without a saving throw can be extremely powerful and makes otherwise risky/bad spells like save or die spells almost risk-free to use.

Anyways, a familiar I feel is being overlooked is the fox. It might have a few pretty bad spells like animate rope, but mirror image, major image, reverse gravity and time stop are all awesome.

It's worse than that. I'm hoping Cackle gets nerfed for final print. (Though it should remain as an ability - I get great joy out of having my witch character cackle evily)

You can not only maintain evil eye indefinitely without a save (or at least the saving throw result is irrelevant) - you can maintain MULTIPLE evil eyes without a save since you can cackle every round as a move action in addition to applying another hex. Hit their Attack rolls on round 1, AC on round 2, then Saving throw on round 3. Then your Misfortune hex is likely to stick.

Round 1: Opponent has -4 to attack with no save (effectively no save)
Round 2: Opponent has -4 to attack AND AC no save
Round 3: Opponent has -4 to attack, AC and Saving throws no save
Round 4: Opponent has -4 to attack, AC and Saving throws with no save, and possibly has to roll twice on any of these rolls and take the worse result.

Against a plethora of enemies this isn't gamebreaking by any means, but against a single uber-tough opponent - the witch is devestating, without even casting spells.

This gets even more abusive if the witch passed around a couple fortune hexes before the battle (now the buffed allies can use a fortune effect EVERY round!!! This abuse is only available for one combat per day - but it's crazy good - especially when combined with the tactic above.)

The obvious fix as far as I'm concerned is either:

a) Limit witches to one hex per round, regardless of time required to use hex

b) Cackle can only affect any hex one time

or both. Hopefully the...

Geez, I hadn't even thought of that. Option b) seems like a good start, though.


Treantmonk wrote:
Ellington wrote:

I'm pretty concerned about Evil Eye + Cackle abuse. At higher levels giving your opponent a -4 penalty on saves without a saving throw can be extremely powerful and makes otherwise risky/bad spells like save or die spells almost risk-free to use.

Anyways, a familiar I feel is being overlooked is the fox. It might have a few pretty bad spells like animate rope, but mirror image, major image, reverse gravity and time stop are all awesome.

It's worse than that. I'm hoping Cackle gets nerfed for final print. (Though it should remain as an ability - I get great joy out of having my witch character cackle evily)

You can not only maintain evil eye indefinitely without a save (or at least the saving throw result is irrelevant) - you can maintain MULTIPLE evil eyes without a save since you can cackle every round as a move action in addition to applying another hex. Hit their Attack rolls on round 1, AC on round 2, then Saving throw on round 3. Then your Misfortune hex is likely to stick.

Round 1: Opponent has -4 to attack with no save (effectively no save)
Round 2: Opponent has -4 to attack AND AC no save
Round 3: Opponent has -4 to attack, AC and Saving throws no save
Round 4: Opponent has -4 to attack, AC and Saving throws with no save, and possibly has to roll twice on any of these rolls and take the worse result.

Against a plethora of enemies this isn't gamebreaking by any means, but against a single uber-tough opponent - the witch is devestating, without even casting spells.

This gets even more abusive if the witch passed around a couple fortune hexes before the battle (now the buffed allies can use a fortune effect EVERY round!!! This abuse is only available for one combat per day - but it's crazy good - especially when combined with the tactic above.)

The obvious fix as far as I'm concerned is either:

a) Limit witches to one hex per round, regardless of time required to use hex

b) Cackle can only affect any hex one time

or both. Hopefully the...

I would vote for option A.


threemilechild wrote:


Agh! Curse you, Treantmonk! :)

*cackles*

Quote:
Actually, did it really work out? I've noticed with a few other casters that I've played that in most cases, I really don't want to be stationary within 30' of my victims.

So far so good. We play again on Friday in a pretty deadly campaign, so we'll see.

Generally, a victim who's been evil eyed and misfortuned isn't a big threat (unless they are a caster) even within 30'


Quote:

The obvious fix as far as I'm concerned is either:

a) Limit witches to one hex per round, regardless of time required to use hex

b) Cackle can only affect any hex one time

I would prefer A, as well.

Except against mobs with great Will saves, you'd spam Evil Eye against saves until that stuck, then you'd have three or four rounds to add more Evil Eye effects, finishing up with Misfortune a round or two before the first ended and you switched to Cackle. Still pretty effective against BBEG, just a little bit slower. Hm, you'd incur a feat tax (Ability Focus Hex Evil Eye) but it'd still be worth it, I think, and still be fun.

The second might make the paperwork annoying. If you're using Evil Eye, you have a list of Hexes with different durations, which started during different rounds, and which may or may not be able to be extended further with Cackle. This is far from game-breakingly complex, but I think for some players it might be game-slowing. (Especially since it would make the order of Hex and Cackle more important, which means the player would be more likely to do the paperwork DURING his turn.)


Something I've noticed about the witch more than any other caster I've played to date is that I really want a meat shield around more often. With wizards, bards, sorcerers, clerics and druids I generally feel ok if I go a round without someone to interrupt the charge line -- not so much with the witch. I'm not completely sure why that is but just putting it out there.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

Treantmonk wrote:
Ellington wrote:

I'm pretty concerned about Evil Eye + Cackle abuse. At higher levels giving your opponent a -4 penalty on saves without a saving throw can be extremely powerful and makes otherwise risky/bad spells like save or die spells almost risk-free to use.

Anyways, a familiar I feel is being overlooked is the fox. It might have a few pretty bad spells like animate rope, but mirror image, major image, reverse gravity and time stop are all awesome.

It's worse than that. I'm hoping Cackle gets nerfed for final print. (Though it should remain as an ability - I get great joy out of having my witch character cackle evily)

You can not only maintain evil eye indefinitely without a save (or at least the saving throw result is irrelevant) - you can maintain MULTIPLE evil eyes without a save since you can cackle every round as a move action in addition to applying another hex. Hit their Attack rolls on round 1, AC on round 2, then Saving throw on round 3. Then your Misfortune hex is likely to stick.

Round 1: Opponent has -4 to attack with no save (effectively no save)
Round 2: Opponent has -4 to attack AND AC no save
Round 3: Opponent has -4 to attack, AC and Saving throws no save
Round 4: Opponent has -4 to attack, AC and Saving throws with no save, and possibly has to roll twice on any of these rolls and take the worse result.

Against a plethora of enemies this isn't gamebreaking by any means, but against a single uber-tough opponent - the witch is devestating, without even casting spells.

This gets even more abusive if the witch passed around a couple fortune hexes before the battle (now the buffed allies can use a fortune effect EVERY round!!! This abuse is only available for one combat per day - but it's crazy good - especially when combined with the tactic above.)

The obvious fix as far as I'm concerned is either:

a) Limit witches to one hex per round, regardless of time required to use hex

b) Cackle can only affect any hex one time

or both.

Actually, I'm not sure you can use the same hex multiple times on the same creature for different results. It would depend on if the general rules for spells apply for hexes (or for that matter, any non-spell special ability).

Core rulebook, p. 209 wrote:

Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same

recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the f inal spell in the series lasts.

I would say that the evil eye hex for AC, for save, and for AC would qualify as the same effect with differing results.

This would still leave a target open to misfortune and evil eye at the same time, with one of those able to be cackled.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
JoelF847 wrote:

Actually, I'm not sure you can use the same hex multiple times on the same creature for different results. It would depend on if the general rules for spells apply for hexes (or for that matter, any non-spell special ability).

Core rulebook, p. 209 wrote:

Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same

recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the f inal spell in the series lasts.

I would say that the evil eye hex for AC, for save, and for AC would qualify as the same effect with differing results.

This would still leave a target open to misfortune and evil eye at the same time, with one of those able to be cackled.

Do you mean to tell me that I cannot have Resist Energy (fire) and Resist Energy (cold) cast on my at the same time?

I refuse to believe it!


MerrikCale wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Does anyone know of any good witch builds? .
I like mine busty but thats just me

Seconded.


JoelF847 wrote:

Actually, I'm not sure you can use the same hex multiple times on the same creature for different results. It would depend on if the general rules for spells apply for hexes (or for that matter, any non-spell special ability).

Core rulebook, p. 209 wrote:

wrote:

Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same
recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

Hexes are specifically Supernatural, not Spell-like, so I don't think that would apply. (It's less trivial a difference than it first appears; there are tons of ways improving spells, but there's less for Su and they tend to be more specific, and the mechanics are generally pretty different.)

Also, I think the text in the rulebook is a little vague. I wonder what they intended by "becomes irrelevant." For instance, if you're polymorphed into a dragon, and then polymorphed into a giant, the first spell no longer affects anything. "Usually" implies exceptions, such as with Blindness/Deafness, it makes sense that two castings could both have effect. (Or the Energy Resistance: a 12th level Resist Energy Fire makes a 4th level casting of Resist Energy Fire irrelevant, because they overlap, not stack, but Resist Energy Fire and Resist Energy Cold do not overlap, and don't remove or dispel each other... nor does the text use "suppressed.")


threemilechild wrote:


The second might make the paperwork annoying. If you're using Evil Eye, you have a list of Hexes with different durations, which started during different rounds, and which may or may not be able to be extended further with Cackle. This is far from game-breakingly complex, but I think for some players it might be game-slowing. (Especially since it would make the order of Hex and Cackle more important, which means the player would be more likely to do the paperwork DURING his turn.)

I expect if you can't extend hexes for more than one round - your "list of hexes" isn't going to be very big.

Misfortune and Fortune both have a base duration of one round (two if you are high enough level). Evil eye is the only one with a lengthy duration (if they fail their saving throw), and frankly, if they fail their save, you probably don't need to extend the duration anyways.


Treantmonk wrote:
threemilechild wrote:


The second might make the paperwork annoying. If you're using Evil Eye, you have a list of Hexes with different durations, which started during different rounds, and which may or may not be able to be extended further with Cackle. This is far from game-breakingly complex, but I think for some players it might be game-slowing. (Especially since it would make the order of Hex and Cackle more important, which means the player would be more likely to do the paperwork DURING his turn.)

I expect if you can't extend hexes for more than one round - your "list of hexes" isn't going to be very big.

Misfortune and Fortune both have a base duration of one round (two if you are high enough level). Evil eye is the only one with a lengthy duration (if they fail their saving throw), and frankly, if they fail their save, you probably don't need to extend the duration anyways.

Sweet mother of crap. I thought cackle basically allowed you to extend _one_ hex per round...not all of 'em. Jebus!

-Cross

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