Multiclass Rogue / Fighter, even split, 1 level dip or pure rogue?


Advice


Hey, considering a 1 level dip into fighter for my lv3 rogue when I next level. Here are my stats as is.

Raidan - Half Elf Rogue - Chaotic Good

Str 12
Con 7
Dex 16
Int 16
Wis 11
Cha 13

1st level feat : Weapon Finesse
2nd level talent: Minor Magic (ray of frost)

Weapons: Masterwork rapier & shortbow
Armor: MW Studded Leather, Heavy Duskwood Shield
HP: 15 AC: 19

Obviously putting my 1 ability point into CON.

The two paths im considering are:

1

4 Fighter 1 Mobility
5 Fighter 2 Combat Expertise, Spring Attack
6 Fighter 3 Armor training
7 Fighter 4 Improved Feint, Whirlwind Attack

Then back to Rogue

or 2

4 Rogue 4 Combat trick (mobility) uncanny dodge
5 Rogue 5 sneak 3d6 Spring attack
6 Rogue 6 Bleeding attack
7 Rogue 7 sneak 4d6 Toughness

Then back to Rogue

or 3

4 Rogue 4 Combat trick (mobility) uncanny dodge
5 Fighter 1 Combat Expertise, Spring Attack

Then back to Rogue

With 1 at CL7, char would look like: 18HP+4(d10-1)+4 favoured class = max 58HP, MW Mithral Breastplate (AC penalty 0), Adamantine heavy shield (AC penalty 0)

Attack: BAB+7, 1d6+1 damage, sneak attack 2d6, AC 25 dr 3/
Fort 6 Reflex 7 Will +1

With 2 at CL7, char would look like: 18HP+4(d8-1)+4 favoured class +7 toughness= max 50HP, MW Elven Scale (AC penalty 0), Darkwood Heavy Shield (AC penalty 0)

Attack: BAB+5 1d6+1 damage, sneak attack 4d6, AC 24
Fort +2 Reflex +5 Will +2

My logic for the 3/4 split would be that fighter would allow me to get spring attack and decent feats faster, rather than having to take bleedign attack/some other rogue talent at CL6 because i'd have already used combat trick. It gives me proficiency in medium armor + shield, access to some useful skills which I can then abuse with my 11SP a turn as rogue, plus if I went to 5 I could get weapon proficiency Elven Curved Blade. Also compensates for rubbish con score with better fort saves and d10 HD.

On the other side, pure rogue will have a much higher sneak attack, uncanny dodge.

Suggestions on which route to take, or any alternatives most welcome.


I'm doing something similar to this with this character, but they started as fighter (college trained) rather than rogue. My intention is to go fighter 4/rogue 3 then go duelist.

Feat-wise, it'll be Power Attack (or similar) next, then Spring Attack, Vital Strike, Whirlwind Attack ...

I plan on using Improved Feint a lot in order to deliver single strong strikes, but I want the option of multiple attacks as well that aren't completely useless.


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Please tell me you took skill fcs: intimidate.

I'd go ftr next for dazzling display and use combat trick talent for shatter defences...

get a skill item if you need help on the intimidate check.

Feint is a trap.
Intimidate a single foe (standard action) or everyone (full round) then treat those who fail as shaken (-2 attack, good for you) and flat footed (no dex to AC- easier to hit and can't AOO you, automatic SA without needing a flank) this can last multiple rounds depending on how much you win your check by.

Conrugan smash (if allowed) lets you intimidate as a free action...awesome.

Ftr9/Rogue11 is great and Rogue 20 is also great with this trick (the first option is better for to hit and defense but less damage-still heaps though)


Is 3.5 allowed or PF only?


I guess I wouldn't worry too much about the future, because you don't know what the future may hold. Keep options open, be prepared to take advantage of opportunities. If there is a Prestige Class you have your eye on, take steps to meet the prerequisites. But look at where your character is and where he can go next.

So in your case, it looks like sticking with Rogue would be the best bet for getting the cool abilities. You can get your mobility and spring attack as a Rogue, plus advance your sneak attack, which would be even sweeter.

If you don't want bleeding attack, then go Fighter at level 6.

Have you considered any Prestige classes? Duelist might work well if you want to emphasize mobility.


Tanis wrote:
Is 3.5 allowed or PF only?

if 3.5 allowed then he could go ftr9/rogue11 follow the spring attack line and get bounding assault.

Also
Melee wpn mastery -slashing,
gtr wpn fcs and slashing flurry
*Staggering Strike would be a must. maybe shadow jaunt and assasins stance at high levels...

maybe deadly stroke instead of bounding assault? bounding assault is two attacks on a spring attack (at different targets if you want, no AOO)

deadly stroke doubles all damage of a single attack (i think, but does it double SA damage and bleed or crippling strike?) and inflicts con bleed as well...any clarification?


Your options multiply with 3.5.

You could take the Thug variant from Unearthed Arcana: Fighter w/SA

You could go Swashbuckler 3/Rogue 3/Invisible Blade 5/Rogue 9. BAB +17, decent HP, Int bns to dmg. If Tome of Battle is available take 2 lvl dip of Swordsage. Shadowblade feat adds Dex bns to dmg as well.

You'd also want Staggering Strike from Complete Scoundrel. It's a rogue saver!


Tanis wrote:

Your options multiply with 3.5.

You could take the Thug variant from Unearthed Arcana: Fighter w/SA

You could go Swashbuckler 3/Rogue 3/Invisible Blade 5/Rogue 9. BAB +17, decent HP, Int bns to dmg. If Tome of Battle is available take 2 lvl dip of Swordsage. Shadowblade feat adds Dex bns to dmg as well.

You'd also want Staggering Strike from Complete Scoundrel. It's a rogue saver!

Staggering Strike is in complete adventurer.


Ardenup wrote:
Staggering Strike is in complete adventurer.

*facepalm* yeh, that's right. good Perception check.


Tanis wrote:

Your options multiply with 3.5.

You could take the Thug variant from Unearthed Arcana: Fighter w/SA

You could go Swashbuckler 3/Rogue 3/Invisible Blade 5/Rogue 9. BAB +17, decent HP, Int bns to dmg. If Tome of Battle is available take 2 lvl dip of Swordsage. Shadowblade feat adds Dex bns to dmg as well.

You'd also want Staggering Strike from Complete Scoundrel. It's a rogue saver!

this is exactly why I stopped worrying about creating the ultimate build in 3.5. The options multiplied to darn near infinity.

Besides, if it is more powerful than the iconic classes, it probably shouldn't be allowed anyway. These options are nice if you want to customize your character, sacrificing in one area to gain somewhere else. But it is really easy to design an uber PrC with uber feats if you go non-core.

I think this is why I am having a hard time devising or converting a PrC for my own PC. When I think of one for my campaign, it's easy to think of "Would I want to allow PCs in my own game to do this?" but for my own PC it is more difficult to be objective.

But with regard to the original poster, I would say think about what you want to do in the near term, and don't worry too much about the complete path. My experience has been that my plans usually change as the character progresses.

One more thought before I go to bed: with your Con, you probably would benefit more from the better HD than you would from better sneak attack. Sneak attacks are nice, but they have to be lined up to work. In the meantime you have to stay alive against creatures who keep doing more damage against you. I would definitely invest in Toughness at the earliest opportunity, even if it means delaying access to a coveted feat like Sprint Attack.


Utgardloki wrote:
Besides, if it is more powerful than the iconic classes, it probably shouldn't be allowed anyway.

The Paizo is strong in this one.


Some awesome suggestions guys, thanks. I know that 4 levels ahead is a lot, but if i'm multiclassing im either doing it this level or next, so wanted a rough idea of where I was going.

The GM will allow 3.5 "core" to an extent, eg something like staggering strike is probably fine, but a dip into something like swordsage probably isn't. I'd say PHB & Complete handbooks are the limit of it.

I hadn't really considered Duelist before, but I think its what I'm looking for. +3 INT to AC, +1 damage per level will help with my low STR.

Problem is rogue's crappy BAB progression. If I stay rogue it'll be lv9 before I could take it. I think its probably worth staying rogue next level to get uncanny dodge, take toughness as a combat trick, BAB+1 to 3, then 3 levels of fighter.

One or two quick questions:

If i'm multiclassing, and say this level I take fighter, I still get my +3 class bonus to rogue skills that the fighter doesnt have, right?

Are there any one handed light/weapon finesse usable weapons that have a better base damage rating than the rapier?


For skills, once a class skill, always a class skill. Your characters 'in class' skills will be all fighter and rogue skills, which is most of them.

Rapier is a good choice. Kukri's nice for dual wielding, Sickle allows trip, and a +1 light silver mace is the best undead bashing weapon you can find for a while.

Remember, you can't use a rapier in a grapple.
-----------------------------------------------
That said, with a 7 Con, I would turn this character into an archer/rogue. You have no business in melee. You're going to go from 100% to bleeding on the floor in one round someday, and I fear that day is coming soon.

Personally, I won't put together a melee character with less than a 14 con, and even some of my fragile characters get a 12.


democanarchis wrote:
Are there any one handed light/weapon finesse usable weapons that have a better base damage rating than the rapier?

Elven thinblade (Races of the Wild) does 1d8 base instead of 1d6 and meets the requirement of being a 1-handed thrusting weapon. Other options from the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign setting are the Aldori duelling sword (1d8 slashing damage) and the elven curveblade (two handed, 1d10 slashing damage). All of these are exotic weapons for humans, though, and as only one is a thrusting weapon they are not perhaps the best option for a duellist. With my build I stuck with rapier - once you have a few duellist levels you end up doing more bonus damage from everything else that it makes no odds.

Some feats I would consider:

Deadly Aim: in a debate on Finesseable weapons it was suggested allowing this to apply to finesse weapons as well as missile weapons - if your DM agrees, take it!

Deadly Defense (Complete Adventurer I think): if you take a -2 or more to hit from increasing your AC (either from fighting defensively or Combat Expertise) you gain +1d6 damage from a Finesse weapon.

Lastly, I'd boost my Con if I were you. Really. For a melee build, 7 is just too low.


I'll definately be putting my LV4 ability point into CON, and getting a +2 CON item is top of my agenda but don't see that happening for a while. Dont think there is much point in going ranged as the party ranger is a beast, rolled STR16 DEX18, mighty+3 composite longbow etc. Thats my logic for going duelist - try and pump my AC and attack as much as I can, and spring attack out of danger. Not ideal, but not much that can be done with stats like these.


... and that is why I don't like dicing for ability scores!

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