I’ve been playing Pathfinder for a while, and lurking on this board for a bit. I’ve come to the conclusion that clerics outclass wizards in just about every way. Even as offensive casters, clerics seem to dominate. This is because clerics maintain their inherent advantages even when created as damage dealers instead of healers.
Experienced players are familiar with basic cleric advantages like hit dice, armor, and saves. But by worshipping select gods and taking certain feats, they can greatly improve their offensive power. For example, the fire domain gives spells like fireball and produce flame, while the weather domain contains both call lightning and ice storm. Both domains start with ranged touch attacks comparable with specialist wizards.
The character I’m planning on playing is a Cleric of Asmodeous. I plan on taking the Fire and Trickery domains. For my domain slot I can take powerful mage spells like invisibility and fireball. The domain powers are all pretty nice, but the trickery doppelganger power is abusive. While not as powerful as mirror image, I can cast it as a move action, distracting my enemies with a 50% miss chance six or seven times a day. This should have been a no brainer for the illusionist specialist, but instead they get extended illusions, which is weak in combat. Add that to the extra class skills and fire resistance and you have major advantage cleric.
But that’s just the beginning. I plan on channeling negative energy. I can cast mini fire balls, centered on myself. At 5th level, I’ll have 3d6 instead of 5d6, and I can cast this about five or six times a day without using spell slots. I can take the selective channel feat to protect my allies or I can take the channeled smite ability and have the equivalent of a rogue’s sneak attack dice several times a day without having to flank my opponents.
There’s more. When I’ve played wizards I often wasted slots on spells that I wasn’t able to use. My cleric can convert spells to “harm” spells at will. This greatly adds to my versatility allowing me to affect creatures with DR or (since I’m using touch attacks) high armor classes.
Finally, as an evil cleric, I can command undead, either by taking the feat or using the 3rd level animate dead spell (it’s 4th level for mages). I can also use my negative energy channel to heal my undead minions.
Granted a mage gets a couple extra feats and either a familiar or imbued object, but I think my advantages as a cleric far outweigh those perks.
I just can’t see any reason to ever play a wizard again. Am I missing something here?
|
You'd be even more effective as positive energy channeler (although Trickery is indeed a hot domain).
There's a design assumption, and it's been around since 1st edition, that wizards have such significantly more powerful spells, that it justified the cleric have twice the hit points, armored spellcasting, better weapons, healing abilities and some actual class abilities (turn undead / domain powers), etc.
Pathfinder has stepped down some of the Domain silliness (no more command / rebuke everything under the sun, no more free feats for the most part), and added school abilities to the Wizard, that are roughly equal to Domain options, but the decision in 3rd edition to increase Clerics and Druids to full 9 level spellcasting, instead of capping at 7th level spells, has somewhat bent the original design philosophy, and, IMO, it's not really balanced out yet.
The Cleric is overall weaker than it was in 3rd edition (particularly with non-core stuff like Divine Metamagic, Nightsticks, Persistant Spell, Undeath and Planning Domains, etc.), but, still, more 'easy' than the Wizard. Wizards still have less hit points, and no armor, and junk for weapons, and their spells aren't *that* much sexier than those of the Cleric.
As much as the Cleric has been stepped down from 3.5 (particularly 3.5 plus splats), and the Wizard's core class abilities have been buffed up, the two classes still subscribe to different design philosophies, it seems, making them look fine in a vacuum, but kind of lopsided standing next to each other.
|
|
From what I'm reading of your post, some of what you're planning depends on being evil. I don't know a lot of GMs that will allow that, first of all. You mention an Illusionists ability being useless in combat, to that I say: PF is more than just a game of combat.
As a wizard, for me, the point isn't to outdamage anyone, it's simply to either A) make my allies awesome or B) make the enemy useless so my allies can dispose of them. An evil cleric is pretty useless if he's drooling on his breastplate babbling incoherently. =)
That's all I can muster for now, as I'm tired and need sleep. I'll check back in the morning.
As a wizard, for me, the point isn't to outdamage anyone, it's simply to either A) make my allies awesome or B) make the enemy useless so my allies can dispose of them. An evil cleric is pretty useless if he's drooling on his breastplate babbling incoherently. =)
With the best will save in the game (possibly barring paladins) that is highly unlikely.
It's basic to the game really --
Clerics are better than wizards.
Better hit dice, better bab, better armor, better saves, spells that are just as good with full access to their "book" for free -- and the ability to choose domains for more powers for free when specialization costs the wizards. Domains grant even more powers with bonus spells quite possibly giving you the few good wizard spells you don't have access to normally.
They get the same number of spells per day as the specialist wizard does without giving anything up for it.
That being said I don't need no god (or philosophy or ideal) to give me my power.
That's the draw of the wizard -- the cleric cheats: He's the god's favorite they give him all his goodies. The wizard stands up gives physics the finger and tells it to kindly sit down and shut up from his own bad ass self.
|
|
With the best will save in the game (possibly barring paladins) that is highly unlikely.
As a wizard, for me, the point isn't to outdamage anyone, it's simply to either A) make my allies awesome or B) make the enemy useless so my allies can dispose of them. An evil cleric is pretty useless if he's drooling on his breastplate babbling incoherently. =)
I was referring to Touch of Idiocy actually, my fault. It doesn't allow a save.
True touch attack -- the cleric does get shield of faith at first level and lesser restoration as a second level spell.
Touch of Idiocy is a penalty so unless they have less than an 18 wisdom you'll need to get over a 6 on the dice roll to prevent them from fixing your touch of idiocy (but a second level spell for a second level spell is a "fair" exchange provided you get the touch in and don't get walloped on the way).
|
|
True touch attack -- the cleric does get shield of faith at first level and lesser restoration as a second level spell.
Touch of Idiocy is a penalty so unless they have less than an 18 wisdom you'll need to get over a 6 on the dice roll to prevent them from fixing your touch of idiocy (but a second level spell for a second level spell is a "fair" exchange provided you get the touch in and don't get walloped on the way).
lol. If I'm getting walloped, I'm gonna have to have a serious conversation with my allies =)
But I understand what you're saying. I was mostly illustrating how I play as an example to the OP's question.
Good night (going to bed for real this time)
Wizards get no love. Every addition has made them weaker and weaker. I don't even fear liches anymore.
|
For my domain slot I can take powerful mage spells like invisibility and fireball.
Fireball powerful ? That's a good joke.
Am I missing something here?
Teleport. Dimension Door. Black Tentacles. Charm Monster. Dominate Person. Enervation. Wall of Force. Baleful Polymorph. Globe of Invulnerability. Contingency. Disintegrate.
The Cleric is cool, yes. But the Wizard gets some of the best spells in the game, and you will find many who will say that Wizard spell list > all other spell lists in the game.
Teleport. Dimension Door. Black Tentacles. Charm Monster. Dominate Person. Enervation. Wall of Force. Baleful Polymorph. Globe of Invulnerability. Contingency. Disintegrate.The Cleric is cool, yes. But the Wizard gets some of the best spells in the game, and you will find many who will say that Wizard spell list > all other spell lists in the game.
I agree, but you have to concede that 3.x/PF has really given Clerics a whole new bunch of shiny toys to play with vis a vis Domain spells. IME, the one thing keeping the Cleric in line is the need to be healing/ saving his party. If the OP were to run that Cleric (evil) in a game, most of his prepared spell slots would likely be used up by Cure spells of various levels, because A. No one else will runa Cleric, and B. If he doesn't heal at least occasionally, the rest of his evil plans will come to naught as he will get curb stomped when the fighter, rogue, and Wizzy go down. If his party is nice enough to run a second heal-bot, then yes, he can be a monster. BUT IME, that is unlikely.
I think the problem with Cleric is players get all excited when they see the Armor and BAB they forget that it's really there to allow the cleric to be in the thick of the fight to SUPPORT the other players. But few people enjoy playing support characters, so...
Best first level spell in the game: Silent Image
Best second level spell in the game: Invisibility
Best third level spell in the game: Stinking cloud or haste (too close)
Best fourth level spell in the game: Black Tentacles
Best fifth level spell in the game: Magic Jar
Best sixth level spell in the game: Planar Binding or contingency
Best seventh level spell in the game: Either project image or reverse grav
Best eighth level spell in the game: Clone or Polymorph any object
Best ninth level spell in the game: Time stop
How many of these spells is your Cleric going to have access too? Wizards get them all.
(Witches actually impressively get most of these as well)
Even as offensive casters, clerics seem to dominate
As damage dealers Clerics are better than Wizards. Also better than Wizards for doing damage: Fighters, Paladins, Druids, Rogues, Barbarians - and more.
the fire domain gives spells like fireball and produce flame, while the weather domain contains both call lightning and ice storm.
None of which are overly impressive spells. (especially produce flame and call lightning. Stinky bad)
Can your Cleric control the battlefield? If not, then you are comparing it to the wrong class.
Your character seems to be about doing damage. To tell if he's good at it, don't compare him to the wizard or bard - can he do more damage than a martial archer?
At least then you are comparing apples to apples.
...
Pathfinder has stepped down some of the Domain silliness (no more command / rebuke everything under the sun, no more free feats for the most part), and added school abilities to the Wizard, that are roughly equal to Domain options, but the decision in 3rd edition to increase Clerics and Druids to full 9 level spellcasting, instead of capping at 7th level spells, has somewhat bent the original design philosophy, and, IMO, it's not really balanced out yet.
....
Old edition talk. Wooooh Oooh! Yeah, but that 7 level cap wasn't the same. 7th level cleric wasn't necessarily the same as 7th level MU. Miracle was 7th right? And it's pretty close to a full-bird Wish. And the experience tracks for the two classes were different. (Wasn't it fun when your rogue was about twice the level of the wizard with the same experience points?)
Disclaimer: Old age and the passage of eons have clouded my memory and cast a fine glowing nostalgia over my AD&D days so this post may be devoid of actual facts.
|
|
Miracle was 7th right? And it's pretty close to a full-bird Wish.
My own memory of those days is similarly clouded by too much reality-punching, I think. Did Miracle even exist?
And the experience tracks for the two classes were different.
Oh, I *loved* that. We'd play the Bloodstone modules and the DM would be like, 'okay, everyone can play up to an 18th level magic-user,' and we'd scramble to figure out how many levels of other classes we could sneak in via multi-classing or dual-classing. (Losing a couple of levels of MU often would give enough XP to sneak in 7 to 9 levels worth of cleric *and* fighter, as a human with high enough scores to dual-class!)
Ah, the shenanigans!
Well in all fairness few things compare in damage to a well made archer.
Best first level spell in the game: Silent Image
Best second level spell in the game: Invisibility
Best third level spell in the game: Stinking cloud or haste (too close)
Best fourth level spell in the game: Black Tentacles
Best fifth level spell in the game: Magic Jar
Best sixth level spell in the game: Planar Binding or contingency
Best seventh level spell in the game: Either project image or reverse grav
Best eighth level spell in the game: Clone or Polymorph any object
Best ninth level spell in the game: Time stop...
Treantmonk, I seldom play at those exalted levels where one gets 7th level spells, but I never thought reverse gravity that good. Can you give me your reasoning?
Miracle was 7th right? And it's pretty close to a full-bird Wish.My own memory of those days is similarly clouded by too much reality-punching, I think. Did Miracle even exist?
And the experience tracks for the two classes were different.Oh, I *loved* that. We'd play the Bloodstone modules and the DM would be like, 'okay, everyone can play up to an 18th level magic-user,' and we'd scramble to figure out how many levels of other classes we could sneak in via multi-classing or dual-classing. (Losing a couple of levels of MU often would give enough XP to sneak in 7 to 9 levels worth of cleric *and* fighter, as a human with high enough scores to dual-class!)
Ah, the shenanigans!
Maybe miracle didn't exist. I'll have to dig up my old players handbook.
Good days though.
I have to agree with Treantmonk. The wizard spell list so vastly outclasses anything the cleric has that I have no fear of the wizard being outmatched. Combined with the fact that the wizard's spell list is designed for an entirely different purpose, you can't really compare the 2.
A cleric would be better compared to an Eldrich Knight, who even with the loss of special powers and caster levels I still feel is a better caster and fighter.
Am I missing something here?
You're dead?
I play a cleric right now. Every session (we're playing through Council of Thieves), I'm feeling so much pressure to heal that I'm not sure what I would have done without Selective Channeling/Extra Channel/Craft Wand. And that's with a paladin, ranger, sorcerer (UMD), and rogue (UMD) on the team!
If I didn't channel positive energy, our entire team would have been wiped out many sessions ago.
Maybe miracle didn't exist. I'll have to dig up my old players handbook.
Good days though.
Miracle didn't exist back in 1st and 2nd edition. They didn't have True Resurrection either. I think Earthquake, Gate, Holy Word, and Chariot of Sustarre (sp?) were about as heavy hitters as a cleric ever got back then.
They never could touch Wish, Time Stop, Shapechange, etc.
Maybe miracle didn't exist. I'll have to dig up my old players handbook.
Good days though.
Miracle didn't exist back in 1st and 2nd edition. They didn't have True Resurrection either. I think Earthquake, Gate, Holy Word, and Chariot of Sustarre (sp?) were about as heavy hitters as a cleric ever got back then.
They never could touch Wish, Time Stop, Shapechange, etc.
I do remember in 1st ed a Druid could get 7th level spells (the max level for divine casters) before Clerics got 5th level spells. Good times.
Treantmonk, I seldom play at those exalted levels where one gets 7th level spells, but I never thought reverse gravity that good. Can you give me your reasoning?
Anyone you fight who can't fly floats helplessly in the air until you kill them. No save, no spell resistance.
If you look through the CR appropriate monsters for the level - it's surprising how many don't have flight.
You can even render a Tarrasque helpless with it (though you can't kill him)
Am I missing something here?You're dead?
I play a cleric right now. Every session (we're playing through Council of Thieves), I'm feeling so much pressure to heal that I'm not sure what I would have done without Selective Channeling/Extra Channel/Craft Wand. And that's with a paladin, ranger, sorcerer (UMD), and rogue (UMD) on the team!
If I didn't channel positive energy, our entire team would have been wiped out many sessions ago.
If your group is in that much need of healing, their combat tactics and/or luck must be really horrible.
Treantmonk, I seldom play at those exalted levels where one gets 7th level spells, but I never thought reverse gravity that good. Can you give me your reasoning?Anyone you fight who can't fly floats helplessly in the air until you kill them. No save, no spell resistance.
If you look through the CR appropriate monsters for the level - it's surprising how many don't have flight.
You can even render a Tarrasque helpless with it (though you can't kill him)
Thanks, TM! (I was impatient for an answer so I tapped your Wizard guide too. Sorry if I was a pest.)
I like playing clerics. I like playing wizards. Sometimes I like playing other classes. I've never tried to put them on a scale to see which outweighs the other. The game I play in isn't all about combat and dealing damage (though I know not everyone plays the same game as my group) so I imagine I would weigh these classes' benefits differently than the OP.
M
Clerics are a strange one.... Im a GM and in my party the fighter/paladin may talk the talk and the wiz may grab the headlines, but unquestionably its the cleric that is the backbone of the party...... they would have been dead long ago without him. And its not just about the healing.... they have the X factor....
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
NECROMANCER! NECROOOMAAANNCCEERRRR!
Casting Wizard Spells? Casting Cleric Spells? Controlling undead without morality mumbo-jumbo?
I'm with Half-Elf Juju Oracle with Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) - now that's some good juju.