Fey- laughing touch ability... are you serious??


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


This seemingly ridiculous ability has been a dungeon buster so far in our group. I may be off in a few points here but let me see if I understand this incredible ability...

Fey touches boss monster; boss monster cannot attack because he has to laugh for a full round without a savings throw, regardless of boss monster's toughness (look out Zeus... you are gonna giggle for a round); party completely and utterly rapes boss monster

At least that is how it has played out so far with our group. Seems broken to me. Hope we are mistaken with this "ability", please advise.


lockwood wrote:

This seemingly ridiculous ability has been a dungeon buster so far in our group. I may be off in a few points here but let me see if I understand this incredible ability...

Fey touches boss monster; boss monster cannot attack because he has to laugh for a full round without a savings throw, regardless of boss monster's toughness (look out Zeus... you are gonna giggle for a round); party completely and utterly rapes boss monster

At least that is how it has played out so far with our group. Seems broken to me. Hope we are mistaken with this "ability", please advise.

Nope. It's busted. If you've got a monster with a low touch-AC, that a wizard can hit, you've got 2 choices:

1.) Tell your player "You will eventually roll a 1, if you keep doing this. And when you do, I will full attack you and you will die. Just know that every time you walk into melee, you are taking your life into your hands."

2.) Never throw the party against a single big bad monster. Make him have many minions, who will keep the wizard busy.

Both of these are pretty dumb solutions. Our group hasn't really thought of anything great here (though #1 is pretty good).

-Cross


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a) First, you have to touch the bad guy without getting squished by an attack of opportunity (either when using the spell-like ability or when approaching, if the enemy has reach). Presumably you can do this while invisible or something.

b) Second, it's not a full round; the target can make a move action (to retreat, say). Of course, that might provoke attacks of opportunity.

c) Third, I presume that Zeus would have some spell resistance which would protect against the spell-like ability.

Those caveats aside, I agree that it could be problematic. It certainly is in a different class than a 1d6+(lvl/2) damage ray attack.


Yeah it seems pretty mean. Towards Hogarth- remember that using a touch attack spell or spell like ability actually counts as armed so even the attack of opportunity threat is negated unless Zeus has reach then its just dangerous to try and get to him.

"Alright Jerry, you are sure you want to walk up to the nasty Ogre dual weilding Great Axes?"


hogarth wrote:

a) First, you have to touch the bad guy without getting squished by an attack of opportunity (either when using the spell-like ability or when approaching, if the enemy has reach). Presumably you can do this while invisible or something.

b) Second, it's not a full round; the target can make a move action (to retreat, say). Of course, that might provoke attacks of opportunity.

c) Third, I presume that Zeus would have some spell resistance which would protect against the spell-like ability.

Those caveats aside, I agree that it could be problematic. It certainly is in a different class than a 1d6+(lvl/2) damage ray attack.

A) you can activate the Laughing Touch from a safe square, then move, then touch (counts as an "armed" unarmed attack). No AoOs for doing this.

B) No need to retreat since he can defend himself normally. What he really loses is one round of his own actions.

C) Abso-freakin-lutely!


Only usable once per target.

If you group can destroy your boss monster in one round - rebuild your boss monster.


Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
legallytired wrote:

Only usable once per target.

If you group can destroy your boss monster in one round - rebuild your boss monster.

This. I actually didn't know laughing touch had this limitation, lol.


Our guy is a 1st lvl fey sorcerer, 4th lvl monk so he fey touches with one of his flurry of blows (which means his to hit is pretty good) then continues to beat the living crap out of laughing monster with the rest of flurry of blows as the rest of the party joins in a Rodney King style beatdown.

Another thing he does is fey touch flurry of blows with a trip attack; so boss monster is left flat on his ass laughing whilst the beatdown ensues


lockwood wrote:

Our guy is a 1st lvl fey sorcerer, 4th lvl monk so he fey touches with one of his flurry of blows (which means his to hit is pretty good) then continues to beat the living crap out of laughing monster with the rest of flurry of blows as the rest of the party joins in a Rodney King style beatdown.

Another thing he does is fey touch flurry of blows with a trip attack; so boss monster is left flat on his ass laughing whilst the beatdown ensues

You are using the ability wrong.

From the SRD

Spoiler:

Laughing Touch(Sp): At 1st level, you can cause a creature to burst out laughing for 1 round as a melee touch attack. A laughing creature can only take a move action but can defend itself normally. Once a creature has been affected by laughing touch, it is immune to its effects for 24 hours. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.

Spell like ability
1. Provokes AoO when used
2. Requires a standard action to activate. It does not automatically go off on unarmed attacks!
3. Can be effected by spell resistance

Touch range ability, most of the other school and bloodline powers are ranged.

Gives immunity for 24 hours. Basically, only used once per target per combat.

So a sorc1/monk4 would have to burn a standard action every time they want to use this ability. If he is threatened when he activated the ability then he provokes an AoO. Then, on the next round the first one of his attacks that landed would cause the laughing touch to go off. After the laughing touch effect has expired, the monk cannot effect that target with laughing touch for 24 hours.


We house ruled it as having a Will save DC of 10+Half Sorcerer Level+2.


Stop sending out a single enemy to fight four or five guys

>:|


If it really becomes a problem, a simpler solution is to cap the HD it affects at Sorc Level +2 or so (similar to Dazing Touch of Charm domain).

Scarab Sages

Yeah, I threatened to cap the witch sleep hex ability for this same reason (no level limit so a 3rd level witch could sleep a 20 hd monster) if my player over-used or abused the power. So far he has used it reasonably, and its become part of his character power base rather than an abused ability. He has been responsible for his share of coup de graced ogres however :)

I would suggest to your player that he use it sparingly if he doesn't want you to audit and possibly nerf the ability. Unfortunately, it sounds like he built his character around the laughing attack combo, so you may be wrecking his character design in doing so.


Charender wrote:
lockwood wrote:

Our guy is a 1st lvl fey sorcerer, 4th lvl monk so he fey touches with one of his flurry of blows (which means his to hit is pretty good) then continues to beat the living crap out of laughing monster with the rest of flurry of blows as the rest of the party joins in a Rodney King style beatdown.

Another thing he does is fey touch flurry of blows with a trip attack; so boss monster is left flat on his ass laughing whilst the beatdown ensues

You are using the ability wrong.

From the SRD
** spoiler omitted **

Spell like ability
1. Provokes AoO when used
2. Requires a standard action to activate. It does not automatically go off on unarmed attacks!
3. Can be effected by spell resistance

Touch range ability, most of the other school and bloodline powers are ranged.

Gives immunity for 24 hours. Basically, only used once per target per combat.

So a sorc1/monk4 would have to burn a standard action every time they want to use this ability. If he is threatened when he activated the ability then he provokes an AoO. Then, on the next round the first one of his attacks that landed would cause the laughing touch to go off. After the laughing touch effect has expired, the monk cannot effect that target with laughing touch for 24 hours.

Pretty close, but you missed one point in the sorcerer's favor. Yes, it takes a standard action, but that standard action can include the touch attack itself. So he doesn't have to wait until next round to touch the enemy (but he would have to wait until next round to punch the enemy - but there is no point; might as well touch him now and rob him of his first action rather than touch him next round and rob him of his second action).


ProfessorCirno wrote:

Stop sending out a single enemy to fight four or five guys

>:|

I'm boggled by the amount of people who run to the forums shouting the downfall of the CR system when this is their real complaint.

But yeah. Standard action, provokes if threatened, touch the bad guy they laugh for one round. The only problem here is if the PCs are fighting one CR 5 monster and not like three CR 2 monsters and a CR 4 monster.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Ice Titan wrote:
I'm boggled by the amount of people who run to the forums shouting the downfall of the CR system when this is their real complaint.

Seems to work fine for me, every time I send out an Ancient Red Dragon against my first level party they die. That seems to be working as intended to me.

Happy gaming.
Barator


Kyle Schmaing wrote:

Yeah it seems pretty mean. Towards Hogarth- remember that using a touch attack spell or spell like ability actually counts as armed so even the attack of opportunity threat is negated unless Zeus has reach then its just dangerous to try and get to him.

"Alright Jerry, you are sure you want to walk up to the nasty Ogre dual weilding Great Axes?"

Well, since I'm being called out and I've done stuff like that before, sure. CHARGE!


Im not sure people really understand how this works, or even how the Witch sleep works since it was brought up.

first In the case of laughing touch its a Su ability not a spell. I am pretty sure you /cant/ charge it.

It provokes attacks of oportunity.

I had had a Cleric with the charm sphere i had planned to use their variant of this to touch people so i could run away from them. But the OOO's really remove its usefullness.

In the case of the witch Ability its limited by the targets Hd. The Witch cant sleep something with more hps than It and anything immune ti sleep effects ignores it.


Brett Hodge wrote:

Im not sure people really understand how this works, or even how the Witch sleep works since it was brought up.

first In the case of laughing touch its a Su ability not a spell. I am pretty sure you /cant/ charge it.

It provokes attacks of oportunity.

I had had a Cleric with the charm sphere i had planned to use their variant of this to touch people so i could run away from them. But the OOO's really remove its usefullness.

In the case of the witch Ability its limited by the targets Hd. The Witch cant sleep something with more hps than It and anything immune ti sleep effects ignores it.

It's not a supernatural ability; it's a spell-like ability.

Laughing Touch (Sp): At 1st level, you can cause a creature to burst out laughing for 1 round as a melee touch attack. A laughing creature can only take a move action but can defend itself normally. Once a creature has been affected by laughing touch, it is immune to its effects for 24 hours. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.

Therefore the charge can be held. And yes it does provoke AoO. Apparently, you don't know how it works either.

Scarab Sages

Brett Hodge wrote:
In the case of the witch Ability its limited by the targets Hd. The Witch cant sleep something with more hps than It and anything immune ti sleep effects ignores it.

APG Final Playtest quote on witches slumber hex:

Slumber (Su): A witch can cause a creature within 30 feet to fall into a deep, magical sleep, as per the spell sleep. The creature receives a Will save to negate the effect. If the save fails, the creature falls asleep for a number of rounds equal to the witch’s level. This hex can affect a creature of any HD. The creature will not wake due to noise or light, but others can rouse it with a standard action. This hex ends immediately if the creature takes damage. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.

So, a 1st level witch can sleep a 20th level character if they fail their save, and whats more, they aren't easily woken by noise or shaking. Thats a save or suck that scales with the witches level, and can be used once for every single opponent the witch faces per day. Can't say that about most abilities gained at 1st level. Not only tht is is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity, unlike a SLA or spell.

That being said, I don't think its too powerful, just that is has the potential to be abused, especially by a witch/rogue in a city setting.


Hmm seems they are stronger than they realized. Although im not sure how Much its an issue in either case.

For my witch lots of stuff has made the Dc 16 save for 5th level. And in the case of the Fey ability i dont know how over powered making somone laugh for one round is.

Scarab Sages

With Sleep hex its a will save, and most big bashers like ogres, giants, barbarians, etc have pretty weak will saves. For example an 8th level witch could reasonably have a 20 int, which makes it a DC 19 will save. Some sample will saves ogres are +0, hill giants +3, Stone giants +7, 14th lvl fighter or barbarian +4. Now factor in that a witch could get this at 1st level, can cast it at will (except the limitation of 1/day per target), none of which is terribly unbalanced. However, a 1st witch/5th level wizard now has an at-will sleep attack with probably around a DC 16, plus all his other spells, for a single level dip. Taking the dip, constantly casting the spell, or exploiting it around commoners in a big city are what I cautioned my player about. Notice the fey ability was an issue because the character using it took a 1 level dip to add a powerful ability to his monk character.

Anyway, just my perception from the perspective of my game, in other games they may be just fine.


DM_Blake wrote:
Charender wrote:
lockwood wrote:

Our guy is a 1st lvl fey sorcerer, 4th lvl monk so he fey touches with one of his flurry of blows (which means his to hit is pretty good) then continues to beat the living crap out of laughing monster with the rest of flurry of blows as the rest of the party joins in a Rodney King style beatdown.

Another thing he does is fey touch flurry of blows with a trip attack; so boss monster is left flat on his ass laughing whilst the beatdown ensues

You are using the ability wrong.

From the SRD
** spoiler omitted **

Spell like ability
1. Provokes AoO when used
2. Requires a standard action to activate. It does not automatically go off on unarmed attacks!
3. Can be effected by spell resistance

Touch range ability, most of the other school and bloodline powers are ranged.

Gives immunity for 24 hours. Basically, only used once per target per combat.

So a sorc1/monk4 would have to burn a standard action every time they want to use this ability. If he is threatened when he activated the ability then he provokes an AoO. Then, on the next round the first one of his attacks that landed would cause the laughing touch to go off. After the laughing touch effect has expired, the monk cannot effect that target with laughing touch for 24 hours.

Pretty close, but you missed one point in the sorcerer's favor. Yes, it takes a standard action, but that standard action can include the touch attack itself. So he doesn't have to wait until next round to touch the enemy (but he would have to wait until next round to punch the enemy - but there is no point; might as well touch him now and rob him of his first action rather than touch him next round and rob him of his second action).

Yes, but my point was the the ability doesn't work with the monk's natural attacks the way the OP was using it. If you want to use the ability with a natural attack, then you have to activate the ability one round, then make the attack the next round.

If you want to use the ability as a touch attack, there are tons of ways you can use it.


Everyone here does realize that Fey's Touch is basically a touch version of the Daze spell right?


Abraham spalding wrote:
Everyone here does realize that Fey's Touch is basically a touch version of the Daze spell right?

Daze and Daze Monster:

(a) have a save
(b) have a fairly low hit dice limit

If either of those applied to Fey Touch, I doubt anyone would be nearly as concerned.


Abraham spalding wrote:
Everyone here does realize that Fey's Touch is basically a touch version of the Daze spell right?

Daze allows a saving throw.


hogarth wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Everyone here does realize that Fey's Touch is basically a touch version of the Daze spell right?

Daze and Daze Monster:

(a) have a save
(b) have a fairly low hit dice limit

If either of those applied to Fey Touch, I doubt anyone would be nearly as concerned.

The wizard version of the ability does not have a save:

Dazing Touch (Sp): You can cause a living creature to become dazed for 1 round as a melee touch attack. Creatures with more Hit Dice than your wizard level are unaffected. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.

But it does still have the HD limit.


knightofstyx wrote:
hogarth wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Everyone here does realize that Fey's Touch is basically a touch version of the Daze spell right?

Daze and Daze Monster:

(a) have a save
(b) have a fairly low hit dice limit

If either of those applied to Fey Touch, I doubt anyone would be nearly as concerned.

The wizard version of the ability does not have a save:

Dazing Touch (Sp): You can cause a living creature to become dazed for 1 round as a melee touch attack. Creatures with more Hit Dice than your wizard level are unaffected. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.

But it does still have the HD limit.

The wizard version can be used over and over again on the same creature to keep them out of the fight, Laughing Touch cannot due to the immunity it gives.


Thus the wizard version is better. /threadjack


knightofstyx wrote:
Thus the wizard version is better. /threadjack

Not really. The original poster is saying that when a single creature is attacking his party, they can easily overwhelm it. But generally a single creature encounter will involve a monster with more hit dice than the players.


hogarth wrote:
knightofstyx wrote:
Thus the wizard version is better. /threadjack
Not really. The original poster is saying that when a single creature is attacking his party, they can easily overwhelm it. But generally a single creature encounter will involve a monster with more hit dice than the players.

Yeah, but this ability can help turn a multiple enemy encounter into a single enemy encounter.

Scarab Sages

I think the thing to remember is that the monk is the one with the touch. If you have a monster meant to be mobile and evade the party, requiring melees to move about some and not get full attacks, stopping it from moving for a round basically means it gets the cuisinart blender treatment from the party the next round. Obviously the solution is to have multiple opponents, but its still brutal the way it is being used as a 1 level dip no-ki point cost stunning fist that operates as a touch attack instead of melee. Excellent character design by the monk player I must say, even if it doesnt work as a melee attack during a flurry. :)


hogarth wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Everyone here does realize that Fey's Touch is basically a touch version of the Daze spell right?

Daze and Daze Monster:

(a) have a save
(b) have a fairly low hit dice limit

If either of those applied to Fey Touch, I doubt anyone would be nearly as concerned.

Daze is usable at will continuously and may reaffect a monster.

Yes it has a Save throw, but then Fey Touch requires a touch attack which means getting close. Yes it has a low hit dice limit but I used the word version for a reason. Daze is longer ranged but has a save throw.

In my opinion a short range with save throw is about equal to a touch attack with no save throw.

My point is this is something that is already available for "free" at lower levels. At higher levels if your sorcerer is regularly engaging in melee to simply Daze a foe then your party has some real issues going on.


has there been any word on errata to classify this as mind-affecting?

Using this fix (which seems RAI to me in any case) has reduced it from broken to just really good in my game.


Abraham spalding wrote:

My point is this is something that is already available for "free" at lower levels.

I certainly agree that something ten times crappier (but less risky to use) is available for free at lower levels.


hogarth wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:

My point is this is something that is already available for "free" at lower levels.

I certainly agree that something ten times crappier (but less risky to use) is available for free at lower levels.

IT works the same at lower levels and you don't have to close. That's worth a lot to a low HP low AC class. Especially since it will work round after round.

I also state that the fey's touch ability is pretty craptastic in its own right -- get up in melee with a sorcerer to touch someone just so they lose a standard action next round? And I can't do it to them again?

Yeah Right.

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