A player asked if they can replace their regular PF cleric with a priest from ToS and it seems like priests gain an awful lot for what they lose.
Lose:
* d8 HD down to d6, averaging at -1 hp/level
* medium BAB down to weak, resulting in +0 to -5 to attack (this is significant)
* medium armour down to light only
Gain:
* 4 skill points per level, more than double
* 1 spell per spell level more
* channeling upgraded from d6 to d8, resulting in some ~5-50 hp more healing per day for everyone in the party
* another domain (Knowledge), complete with domain abilities
* bardic knowledge
The 3.5 cloistered cleric (from Unearthed Arcana), compared to the 3.5 cleric, lost more (armour downgraded from heavy to light), and gained less (no bonus spells, no boost to healing). It ended up being a bit weaker, but could hold its own (especially considering the 3.5 cleric was too strong).
The Tome of Secrets priest seems notably stronger than the Pathfinder cleric in all arenas except straight melee.
Has anybody tried the priest? How does it measure up?
A player asked if they can replace their regular PF cleric with a priest from ToS and it seems like priests gain an awful lot for what they lose.
Lose:
* d8 HD down to d6, averaging at -1 hp/level
* medium BAB down to weak, resulting in +0 to -5 to attack (this is significant)
* medium armour down to light onlyGain:
* 4 skill points per level, more than double
* 1 spell per spell level more
* channeling upgraded from d6 to d8, resulting in some ~5-50 hp more healing per day for everyone in the party
* another domain (Knowledge), complete with domain abilities
* bardic knowledgeThe 3.5 cloistered cleric (from Unearthed Arcana), compared to the 3.5 cleric, lost more (armour downgraded from heavy to light), and gained less (no bonus spells, no boost to healing). It ended up being a bit weaker, but could hold its own (especially considering the 3.5 cleric was too strong).
The Tome of Secrets priest seems notably stronger than the Pathfinder cleric in all arenas except straight melee.
Has anybody tried the priest? How does it measure up?
If you're looking for a party medkit (which is what a lot of Clerics end up being) then the Priest is a bit too powerful.
It's one of the TOS classes that I've banned from my PF games.
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I think that the Priest gains more roleplay versatility at the expense of combat ability. If your game is combat light, you may see this as too good of a trade. If your game is combat with brief breaks of 'who do we go stab next?' then the extra skill points and bardic knowledge ability won't really matter much.
A player asked if they can replace their regular PF cleric with a priest from ToS and it seems like priests gain an awful lot for what they lose.
Lose:
* d8 HD down to d6, averaging at -1 hp/level
* medium BAB down to weak, resulting in +0 to -5 to attack (this is significant)
* medium armour down to light onlyGain:
* 4 skill points per level, more than double
* 1 spell per spell level more
* channeling upgraded from d6 to d8, resulting in some ~5-50 hp more healing per day for everyone in the party
* another domain (Knowledge), complete with domain abilities
* bardic knowledge
You've missed out that they lose Shields too. Light Armour and no shields, and no Mage Armour/Shield/Blur/Displacement/Mirror Image all adds up to a pretty pathetic AC. Add to that low hit points and you're looking at a class that will struggle to survive any fighting.
I'll agree that the d8 healing is a little too much, just change it down to a d6.
I have no issues with the Priest. If you have a player that wants to play one, they are pretty much playing a dedicated healer, which as we all know, is a selfless, and usually a thankless occupation!
Don't forget that all parties need a healer, which basically means a Cleric. Now, because most players don't want to play a heal-bot, the cleric get a load of combat stuff in its package to compensate [and encourage] someone [please someone... anyone!] to play one. Taking all that combat stuff away makes the Cleric [Priest] very undesirable.
If a player really wants to be that kind of character, then I'd encourage it more than discourage it. And as TriOmegaZero said, it makes for a good role-playing type of character. Being good at healing really doesn't add up to a broken class imo, nor does having 2 domain spells/day.
I've seen one in play, in my Council of Thieves campaign. The game is about at 5th level, and up to this point, there has never been a point at which it seems over powering.
A cleric can always mix it up in combat if they have a decent amount of armor before people start to need healing. If nothing else they can always aid another to help out the tanks and rogues.
A priest, with light armor, d6 hit dice, and no shields, and with no real offensive spells at the lower end of the cleric spell list, really doesn't do much in combat until people start getting whomped on a bit. Its suicide for them to try and wade into combat and throw in a helping hand like a cleric would.
We'll see how this works out as the levels increase, but at this level, I sometimes feel bad for the player of the priest because he's almost entirely reactive in combat at this point.
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In my opinion the only change the ToS Priest needs is to change the d8 channel back into d6. If you really it as a better channeler, give it Extra Channel for free.
Three domains is pretty good; limit it to Knowledge domain plus one other of the deity's domain per day (chosen when spells are prepared) - more versatile but not overpowered.
Cleric has two things it does: Cast spells, and hit people with a stick.
Priest cannot hit people with a stick
It seems somewhat obvious that they should be better at casting spells to make up for it.
Cleric has two things it does: Cast spells, and hit people with a stick.
Priest cannot hit people with a stick
It seems somewhat obvious that they should be better at casting spells to make up for it.
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Stat point allocation is also tricky. Wisdom and Charisma are obvious, but then where do you go?
A little Int for all those Knowledge skills.
Probably 14-ish in Con for survivability.
Strength is basically a dump stat and Dex takes whatever is left.
Chainshirt +4 AC
Dex 12? +1 AC
Wow, starting AC 15 and no easy way to improve it.
If you chuck some realistic cash at him you, for 9k for +3 Armour, 2k each on Natural [amulet] & Deflection [ring]. Now you have an AC of 20 at a level when that really won't do!, and that's assuming a positive Dex score, which personally I wouldn't bother with.
The Priest gets better spell casting because he needs it! The challenge will be keeping him up on his feet.
I think dropping the d8 Channel down to a d6 is probably a good fix as well.
The rest of the boons aren't as broken, but I think the d8 Channeling is.
Simple fix, too.
You've missed out that they lose Shields too. Light Armour and no shields, and no Mage Armour/Shield/Blur/Displacement/Mirror Image all adds up to a pretty pathetic AC. Add to that low hit points and you're looking at a class that will struggle to survive any fighting.
Wouldn't he just pick up a masterwork buckler as soon as possible, with (+0 ACP, so it works fine even if you're not proficient)?
So he'll be 2 points behind the standard Pathfinder cleric (buckler + chain shirt instead of buckler + breastplate).
Being good at healing really doesn't add up to a broken class imo, nor does having 2 domain spells/day.
However, being good at healing increases the number of situations where it's more worth your while to radiate healing rather than doing something more active/interesting/sexy. Being too good at healing actually makes a class less attractive (even if more powerful).
Having two domain spells per day isn't problematic in itself, but having more spells per day than the sorcerer while at the same time knowing all spells on the cleric list makes me suspicious.
I'm thinking about cutting back both the spells and the healing to cleric levels; the cloistered cleric was kinda weak that way, and all classes are a bit stronger in Pathfinder, so this leaves the room for what I see as a potentially more interesting boost for someone who's a more magical than martial champion of the faith: more/better uses of domain powers. So a Fire priest wouldn't give up armour for more healing, he'd give up armor for more fire.
I'm thinking about cutting back both the spells and the healing to cleric levels; the cloistered cleric was kinda weak that way, and all classes are a bit stronger in Pathfinder, so this leaves the room for what I see as a potentially more interesting boost for someone who's a more magical than martial champion of the faith: more/better uses of domain powers. So a Fire priest wouldn't give up armour for more healing, he'd give up armor for more fire.
Then what exactly does the priest gain for all it gives up?
A bonus to knowledge skills? That's it?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I'm thinking about cutting back both the spells and the healing to cleric levels; the cloistered cleric was kinda weak that way, and all classes are a bit stronger in Pathfinder, so this leaves the room for what I see as a potentially more interesting boost for someone who's a more magical than martial champion of the faith: more/better uses of domain powers. So a Fire priest wouldn't give up armour for more healing, he'd give up armor for more fire.Then what exactly does the priest gain for all it gives up?
A bonus to knowledge skills? That's it?
His idea still has +4 skill points per level, better/more domain powers. Bardic Knowlege, 3 domains. For losing BAB, Armour, and 1 hp/level (on average) Far from nothing.
His idea still has +4 skill points per level, better/more domain powers. Bardic Knowlege, 3 domains. For losing BAB, Armour, and 1 hp/level (on average) Far from nothing.
And Shields.
Who cares if the channel uses d8 instead of d6? An average of 1 pt difference per die? Far from overpowering. They do get more spells per day then the sorc, but they must prepare them ahead of time and have a pretty weak offensive list. I'd not play one, but that is because they are weak - I do not want to have a heal-bot for a PC. They are pure support, not a cannon.
His idea still has +4 skill points per level, better/more domain powers. Bardic Knowlege, 3 domains. For losing BAB, Armour, and 1 hp/level (on average) Far from nothing.I'm thinking about cutting back both the spells and the healing to cleric levels; the cloistered cleric was kinda weak that way, and all classes are a bit stronger in Pathfinder, so this leaves the room for what I see as a potentially more interesting boost for someone who's a more magical than martial champion of the faith: more/better uses of domain powers. So a Fire priest wouldn't give up armour for more healing, he'd give up armor for more fire.Then what exactly does the priest gain for all it gives up?
A bonus to knowledge skills? That's it?
Alright, I can see that. Just cutting the channel energy back to d6 and removing the second domain spells then, I'm assuming?
I had a player play a priest in a level 9 campaign. It wasn't overpowered at all compared to the Paladin, Fighter, Scout/Warlock, Druid and Knight (6 person campaign).
Honestly, he was almost useless in combat (other than healing), but he was a very very good overall character for non-combat stuff (basically a skill monkey healer). The d8's were not really any major thing, nor were the extra spells per day (since most were utility/healing).
The character died at level 10.75 though, because he got trapped away from the rest of the party and overrun by a dozen CR 3 skeletons. No matter how much he channeled positive energy, he couldn't take them down fast enough when they were surrounding him and attacking (including ranged attacks).
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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His idea still has +4 skill points per level, better/more domain powers. Bardic Knowlege, 3 domains. For losing BAB, Armour, and 1 hp/level (on average) Far from nothing.Alright, I can see that. Just cutting the channel energy back to d6 and removing the second domain spells then, I'm assuming?
And then you have the priest from unearthed Arcana. Which I used successfully, myself.
The thing to remember about the priest is he's not a cleric, he's closer to a bard. Divine Favor is going to compensate for BAB somewhat, bringing him closer to bard level (+7 at 9th level, compared to the bard's +6) While at higher levels Divine Power will compensate for his hit dice and again, BAB to some extent. (18th level, it's attacks at +15, +15, +10)
So (using the 15 point array) our cleric could easily go S8 D14 C12 I10, W15, Ch13. (Assuming half elf/human/half orc you still have a +2 for somewhere) At low levels he's a mage. Let's have him follow Abadar and take Nobility and Protection. You'll likely always have a divine favour prepared (domain spell) and a +1 to saving throws. Plus even at first level, you can give that front line fighter a +2 to attack and save for one round, 5 times a day. Take selective channelling to not be healing the BBEG. Your skill points are going to run between 6-8 a level, so you have wizard level skill points even w/o wizard level intelligence. Heck, if you're a half elf, take skill focus UMD and keep that skill maxed. If you want to play front line fighter, take toughness swap strength and charisma, add your favoured class bonus to HP, and be ready to toss out a divine favour and go mix it up.
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A player asked if they can replace their regular PF cleric with a priest from ToS and it seems like priests gain an awful lot for what they lose.
Lose:
* d8 HD down to d6, averaging at -1 hp/level
* medium BAB down to weak, resulting in +0 to -5 to attack (this is significant)
* medium armour down to light onlyGain:
* 4 skill points per level, more than double
* 1 spell per spell level more
* channeling upgraded from d6 to d8, resulting in some ~5-50 hp more healing per day for everyone in the party
* another domain (Knowledge), complete with domain abilities
* bardic knowledge
4 skill points won't make or break a game. It gives them some out of combat versatility.
1 extra spell can be nice, again not a game breaker though.
Channeling from d6 to d8, actually results in an average of +1 healing per die. Again not THAT big a deal.
Is the Knowledgs domain the same as in the core book? If so not a huge deal.
Bardic Knowledge again is not a big deal in combat.
IF your game is very combat light then I see some advantages, perhaps knock down the skills or drop either the extra domain or the bardic knowledge. If balanced between combat and social, or combat heavy I seriously doubt any one will notice a boost of power. In fact they might complain that he sucks in combat too much.
as long as he remains a pure class I do not see a problem with any of it, the domain powers might be too much if he plans to dip.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Forgot to add one Caveat...
Be careful of 3.x splatbooks with the CC. Anything that gives average/good BAB and casting might 'break' the priest/cloistered cleric.
Prestige Paladin comes to mind. The priest can qualify as of 8th level. Take 12 levels and you end up at level 20 with a BAB of 16, CL 14, and you get your armour/shield back. The Prestige ranger could be accessed by a priest with the animal domain.
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Forgot to add one Caveat...
Be careful of 3.x splatbooks with the CC. Anything that gives average/good BAB and casting might 'break' the priest/cloistered cleric.
Prestige Paladin comes to mind. The priest can qualify as of 8th level. Take 12 levels and you end up at level 20 with a BAB of 16, CL 14, and you get your armour/shield back. The Prestige ranger could be accessed by a priest with the animal domain.
honestly I would suggest avoiding 3.x splatbooks if at all possible (at least for classes). In may ways they can seriously mangle Pathfinder by upping the power level to unmanageable levels. pathfinder is already powered up. Adding another upgrade can be ruinous. I guess discretion is the best choice, just be careful with them