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Manga comics apparently are equivalent to child pornography
Or at least that's what prosecutors wanted, but what they ultimately nailed the guy on was breaking local decency laws under a 2003 federal law designed to protect actual children, not fantasy anime girls.
The scary thing about this is that police had no other evidence, past or present, linking the man to child porn, or anything else illegal, for that matter.
I've seen some freaky Japanese cartoons, but they're cartoons. The Supreme Court actually ruled that animation and artwork not depicting a living individual child is not child pornography, and let's not forget, Manga characters are not necessarily depictions of underage persons.
If a Manga comic book can land you in jail and brand you a potential molester, what about the written word--because that's next.
I don't care of the manga was explicitly depicting underage characters and the guy was collecting them only for his private sexual pleasure. The fact would be distasteful, but I couldn't even justify a fine for it. Who has been harmed by it? What rights have been infringed?
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Some states have laws on the books that prevent the glorification or fantasizing about children in a sexual manner. Ex: a guy was arrested, and I don't think he had any "real" kiddy porn, but he had several pictures of of age women with kids' heads photoshopped on (including one w/ miley cyrus' head and one with a kid from the neighborhood's head).
If manga/anime (or hentai I guess) is clear in that it's supposed to be a child, then I could see some justification in charging that person--but not with the full-fledged charges associated with actual child porn.
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Some states have laws on the books that prevent the glorification or fantasizing about children in a sexual manner. Ex: a guy was arrested, and I don't think he had any "real" kiddy porn, but he had several pictures of of age women with kids' heads photoshopped on (including one w/ miley cyrus' head and one with a kid from the neighborhood's head).
However those pictures would fall into the realm of artifically created material that is representative of a real person. Those are illegal under the Supreme Court's ruling. If the individuals in the manga were not intended to represent an actual person it is not technically illegal.
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I don't care of the manga was explicitly depicting underage characters and the guy was collecting them only for his private sexual pleasure. The fact would be distasteful, but I couldn't even justify a fine for it. Who has been harmed by it? What rights have been infringed?
I wish I could find a link on it, but I could have swore that Bill Clinton actually passed a law fairly close to what you are saying. I remember because some conservative groups were using it as fodder to attack him with and others saw things pretty much like the way you are describing.
Not sure how I feel on it to be honest.
Pure insanity. Sketches of imaginary people doing imaginary things are now a felony? This obviously has nothing to do with PROTECTing people (despite the act's name), and everything to do with filling the prisons. Next up: we all serve life sentences without parole for murder -- for playing D&D (imaginary characters kill imaginary monsters, after all).
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Pure insanity. Sketches of imaginary people doing imaginary things are now a felony? This obviously has nothing to do with PROTECTing people (despite the act's name), and everything to do with filling the prisons. Next up: we all serve life sentences without parole for murder -- for playing D&D (imaginary characters kill imaginary monsters, after all).
Exactly, since murdering a child--or an adult--is the most heinous crime...it is, isn't it?
Not sure how I feel on it to be honest.
If a real child was sexually exploited in the production of the work, I would happily see the guy thrown in prison.
But that's not what happened here. Nobody was sexually exploited, child or otherwise.
Exactly, since murdering a child--or an adult--is the most heinous crime...it is, isn't it?
If fictional characters have rights that the law is concerned with, I can't think of many crimes I haven't committed as a writer, DM, or player. Goodness knows I've consumed much of the same in reading character backstory, campaign settings, adventures, and so on.
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Pure insanity. Sketches of imaginary people doing imaginary things are now a felony? This obviously has nothing to do with PROTECTing people (despite the act's name), and everything to do with filling the prisons. Next up: we all serve life sentences without parole for murder -- for playing D&D (imaginary characters kill imaginary monsters, after all).Exactly, since murdering a child--or an adult--is the most heinous crime...it is, isn't it?
+5 with a vorpal coating this is true with the current politico's plans soon it will be against the law to get mad at some one because they did something you don't like
Next they will be pressing charges against people who have books that contain rape scenes because these scenes are based on "real" people.
Fully half of my local Barnes and Nobles fiction section would fall under that... (stupid vampron)
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Manga comics apparently are equivalent to child pornography
Or at least that's what prosecutors wanted, but what they ultimately nailed the guy on was breaking local decency laws under a 2003 federal law designed to protect actual children, not fantasy anime girls.
The scary thing about this is that police had no other evidence, past or present, linking the man to child porn, or anything else illegal, for that matter.
I've seen some freaky Japanese cartoons, but they're cartoons. The Supreme Court actually ruled that animation and artwork not depicting a living individual child is not child pornography, and let's not forget, Manga characters are not necessarily depictions of underage persons.
If a Manga comic book can land you in jail and brand you a potential molester, what about the written word--because that's next.
This one was used as an election issue in the USA. They argued that a Dragon Ball Z found in a primary school library was child endangerment (the issue has a young Goku slapping Bulma on her undies while she sleeps) It is more a mature reader so but i argued at the time that 35% of the population considered Failed Economic policies that result in mass unemployment and homelessness constituted Child Endangerment, 39% Thought the War on Terror (bombing Civilians without concern) constituted Child Endangerment, while only 7% considered a japanaese Manga child Endangerment.
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I still don't understand a few things:
1) How is a drawing of a nonexistent and arguably nonhuman imaginary character, that is usually only characteristically adolescent in facial appearance, the same thing as a photograph of an actual adolescent?
2) How can possession of these comics, when stored and viewed in the privacy of one's residence, have any appreciable impact on the surrounding community and thus violate community decency standards?
3) Manga characters are very obviously nonhuman (nonhuman physiology; and often with psychic or magical powers); Manga Hentai often focuses on sexual activity with other nonhuman subjects, such as aliens and demons--how can depictions of intercourse or other sexual behavior conducted between nonhuman imaginary graphic depictions constitute child pornography?
I think all teachers need to be put in prison for life. After all, they're intentionally worming their way into places where they can interact with minors all day, every day. How creepy is that? Doesn't anyone care about the children?
I think all teachers need to be put in prison for life. After all, they're intentionally worming their way into places where they can interact with minors all day, every day. How creepy is that? Doesn't anyone care about the children?
... hey... O.o
So let me get this straight...
I can have hours and hours of video of real dogs fighting and killing each other, but a stick figure drawing of a naked kid, and it's off to jail?
I'm also reminded that the Simpsons movie features a whole segment where Bart is naked... I guess I'll see you all in jail...
Also, someone get Nick Logue up to Canada quick! If they find out what went on with the ogres in Hook Mountain Massacre, they would jail him for life!
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I think all teachers need to be put in prison for life. After all, they're intentionally worming their way into places where they can interact with minors all day, every day. How creepy is that? Doesn't anyone care about the children?... hey... O.o
PERVERT! THERE'S ONE RIGHT THERE! DON'T LET HIM GET AWAY!
I say we chase him into a warehouse and burn it down on top of him!
I think all teachers need to be put in prison for life. After all, they're intentionally worming their way into places where they can interact with minors all day, every day. How creepy is that? Doesn't anyone care about the children?... hey... O.oPERVERT! THERE'S ONE RIGHT THERE! DON'T LET HIM GET AWAY!
I say we chase him into a warehouse and burn it down on top of him!
*casts Fire Immunity! casts Etherealness!*
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So let me get this straight...
I can have hours and hours of video of real dogs fighting and killing each other, but a stick figure drawing of a naked kid, and it's off to jail?
I'm also reminded that the Simpsons movie features a whole segment where Bart is naked... I guess I'll see you all in jail...
Also, someone get Nick Logue up to Canada quick! If they find out what went on with the ogres in Hook Mountain Massacre, they would jail him for life!
He is in England. No need to worry.
It is hard to discuss without seeing the images in particular - also without knowing the context and full details of the collection. if, for example, it was in the "context" of a broader manga collection it is different than if his collection consisted entirerly of the extreme-end of Hentai. it5 would also be interesting to know what lead to the police becomming interested in him - this could be anything from a hidious police over-reaction to a collection of alternative comics, to an incredebly dangerous man being prosecuted for the only thing they could prove. and, i guess we will never know, as we only have part of the picture.
I was wondering about this as well. It's unusual for someone to do a raid for porn, even live action porn that might depict underage characters. I imagine there was a reason they were suspecting this guy of something, and this is what they could find.
It is disturbing on one hand--I don't think it's right to invade someone's home and arrest them for content of artwork that they privately own.
On the other hand, if some of the "artwork" is especially disturbing, I can understand why someone would be concerned. Some things do cross a line, I think. There's a difference between depicting something and glorifying or condoning it. I realize there's a fine line, and I don't want to encourage censorship, but I also don't want to support a mindset that revels in the exploitation of the innocent.
And I gotta say... some hentai manga and doujinshi ("unofficially" published comics) truly are utterly frightening. I once bought what I thought was going to be a fairly harmless doujin at Otakon... the cover was of two adults hugging, okay? The inside, however, featured an 8 year old being violently raped. And yes, I knew who the character was (originally from a non-hentai series) so I know she was definitely supposed to be 8, not "just looks young." I personally would consider the person who drew that comic to be a criminal. You can disagree if you like; but I definitely think that is a case of "going too far" (and you're unlikely to change my mind).
(Needless to say, I returned the doujinshi to the vendor and showed him what he'd sold me. He grew very pale and gave me my money back without question. And I learned my lesson about buying doujinshi sight-unseen.)
And I gotta say... maybe it's just me, but if I saw comics like that in someone's house... no, I wouldn't report them to the police, but I just might kick his sick sorry psycho ass into next week.
however, from a psychological perspective, fantasy about any illegal sexual act can, over a period of time, turn into rehersal for an actual criminal offence. it can also lead to cognative distortion, which is an important part of overcomming internal resistance
I have to agree with Andrew Vachss (attorney, author, and activist for abused youths), who put it succinctly: "Behavior is the truth." If you take someone's imaginings and label them "pedophelia" or some other psychological condition, you potentially provide an "out" for actual criminals to get out of jail on a "not competent" technicality or some other lame "I couldn't help it" defense. On the flip side, if you carefully avoid thought crimes and prosecute for criminal actions, you can slam them away cold. Vachss' definition of child pornography? "Photographic evidence of a crime."
Do I think this comic book guy is really creepy? Hell, yeah. Would I want him around my kids, or neices and nephews? Probably not. Would I throw him in prison? Hell, no -- not unless he tries to actually do something to an actual kid.
Because going after thought crime is dangerous. Take it a step further, as I did earlier. All of us are presumably here because we play D&D (or Pathfinder, whatever). All of us are engaged in fantasy about illegal acts -- killing people and robbing their corpses -- that's a mainstay of the game. But I'd wager that, for everyone here, that is in no way, shape, or form turning into "rehearsal for an actual criminal offense." D&D does not lower our internal resistance against murder -- on the contrary, 1st time violent crime rates are lower among D&D players (I specify 1st time convictions because a lot of people take the game up while in prison for other things, to help pass the time). And even if D&D does "lower internal resistance," we all still have a choice, when it comes down to it. I don't want to see murderers using "D&D made me do it" as part of their defense, and actually getting away with that.
Note to self, no more ordering hentai from japan. I'd hate to have to deal with someone thinking I was ordering child porn. :/
I'm more worried by the volume of tenticle porn.
I think all teachers need to be put in prison for life. After all, they're intentionally worming their way into places where they can interact with minors all day, every day. How creepy is that? Doesn't anyone care about the children?
Ever think about the people who seek out positions where they'll not only interact with minors constantly, but often with them unsupervised and in situations where these minors may be wearing very little to no clothing? Should probably lock up the coaches too*. I mean, they even have offices down by where the minors get undressed and those offices frequently have large windows so they can observe the process!
*Ok so most coaches are certified and, theoretically, hired as teachers. But you get the idea.
He is in England. No need to worry.
All the more reason to worry. They don't need to twist English law to make that manga stash illegal. It's explicit there. Yes, thanks to their Labour party, English law on the subject of cartoons and sexual content is even stupider and more puritanical than in the US.
This is scary.
I do not seek child pornography, and consider sexual intercourse with children to be repugnant.
But I do buy and download some stuff from Japanese producers, and some of the stuff is definitely closer to the borderline than I would like. In fact, I wish they wouldn't make so much of a point of going as close to the border line as they can.
What worries me is the potential for being ambushed for something that I innocently bought or ordered, not knowing what was inside. Once someone is labelled a "pedophile", that's it. No more rights for him. Just make the accusation and the guy becomes a non-entity.
I've seen some stuff online that is really sickening, but the only way to know it is sickening is to see it, because many times they don't put a warning on it saying "This is child pornography." In fact, sometimes they do the opposite, saying "No child pornography here", and then there is stuff that I really would not want to go to court to claim was not child pornography.
I hope there was a reason for going after this guy other than just ambushing him for receiving something that he might not even have known the nature of when he ordered it. I'll have to read the links to become more informed.
But I've read about one guy who was arrested because he was a substitute teacher, the computer he used at school did NOT have a virus or spamware protection filter on it because the adminstration did not want to have one on it, and some pornographic ads just popped up while he was teaching. I know from experience that without a program to protect from adware, those kinds of ads will pop up no matter what you are doing, so it should have been the administration that was arrested, not some poor schmuck who just wanted to do his job and just walked into this situation.
Another scary story was a guy arrested because a computer virus put some pornography on his machine for future transference to other computers. He had no way of knowing about the computer virus, but nowadays They want your computer hooked up 24/7, so who knows what a virus or worm could be doing without your knowledge or consent. I hope the firewall I have installed prevents this kind of mischief, but I don't regularly inspect all of my computer files all the time, and I don't expect anybody else to either.
I wish people could think. If a guy is sitting in his car, downloading child pornography using your wireless connection without your knowledge that he is even there, arrest the guy in the car. Don't arrest you because somebody is using your service that you are not even aware of.
How is a guy to be safe, unless he boycotts Japanese anime and manga?
Note to self, no more ordering hentai from japan. I'd hate to have to deal with someone thinking I was ordering child porn. :/I'm more worried by the volume of tenticle porn.
"That's not a tentacle, it's a genticle."
If you want more proof that our country is going crazy, here is another disturbing news item:
You know, for kids to be born, their parents probably had sex at that point. That's a direct link between children and adult sexual activity, and I intend to prosecute under it, to the full extent of the law. ALL PARENTS GO DIRECTLY TO JAIL. DO NOT PASS "GO." DO NOT COLLECT $200.
We are all criminals, just waiting for a jury to convict us.
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You know, for kids to be born, their parents probably had sex at that point. That's a direct link between children and adult sexual activity, and I intend to prosecute under it, to the full extent of the law. ALL PARENTS GO DIRECTLY TO JAIL. DO NOT PASS "GO." DO NOT COLLECT $200.
We are all criminals, just waiting for a jury to convict us.
What jury? The unacountable get a bullet to the head.
You know, for kids to be born, their parents probably had sex at that point. That's a direct link between children and adult sexual activity, and I intend to prosecute under it, to the full extent of the law. ALL PARENTS GO DIRECTLY TO JAIL. DO NOT PASS "GO." DO NOT COLLECT $200.
We are all criminals, just waiting for a jury to convict us.
I'm not married and am of a "no premarital sex" morality, so I swear off ever marrying and I'm clear?
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I'm not married and am of a "no premarital sex" morality, so I swear off ever marrying and I'm clear?You know, for kids to be born, their parents probably had sex at that point. That's a direct link between children and adult sexual activity, and I intend to prosecute under it, to the full extent of the law. ALL PARENTS GO DIRECTLY TO JAIL. DO NOT PASS "GO." DO NOT COLLECT $200.
We are all criminals, just waiting for a jury to convict us.
Your lack of activity may actually encourage others to engage in early sexual behavior, because they "don't wanna be like the prude-dude."
Conversely, your single status Joe Cool coolness may actually discourage others from engaging in a healthy, adult relationship, which otherwise would naturally result in a "good Christian, American marriage." In this way, your life encourages promiscuity and early sexual behavior in minors.
We'll hold the cell door open for you...
I'm not married and am of a "no premarital sex" morality, so I swear off ever marrying and I'm clear?
Have you ever listened to a song on the internet without paying royalties on it? If so, you're a pirate. They're now prosecuting for that.
When all this tapers off and we've got 10% of the U.S. adult population in prison (from 1% currently, from 0.1% thirty years ago), then they'll start chucking life sentences at anyone who gets a speeding ticket.
The beast has got to be fed.
*locks self in bunker*
Looks up as the bunker door opens. Hi there.
Looks up as the bunker door opens. Hi there.
I thought you looked familiar...
I'm not married and am of a "no premarital sex" morality, so I swear off ever marrying and I'm clear?Have you ever listened to a song on the internet without paying royalties on it? If so, you're a pirate. They're now prosecuting for that.
When all this tapers off and we've got 10% of the U.S. adult population in prison (from 1% currently, from 0.1% thirty years ago), then they'll start chucking life sentences at anyone who gets a speeding ticket.
The beast has got to be fed.
+1
Which is silly cause it costs more to house a person in prison then the taxes and fines you generate from imprisoning them...
Looks up as the bunker door opens. Hi there.I thought you looked familiar...
There's rats in my bunker.
All the more reason to worry. They don't need to twist English law to make that manga stash illegal. It's explicit there. Yes, thanks to their Labour party, English law on the subject of cartoons and sexual content is even stupider and more puritanical than in the US.He is in England. No need to worry.
Wow!