Sorcerer / Oracle Mystic Theurge...


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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One of the PCs in my game wants to play one.

Has anyone ever seen this played well? What would you do to make it playable at all? I'm worried that they'll essentially just be an xp drag on the party as well as a liability in combat-- and that the party will think so, too.

The player has argued that they should be able to play what they want, and I'm going to let them, but, well, I don't want them to suck, too!

What do you guys think?


The good thing about this build is that using one stat for both spell casting classes reduces MAD.

But the player should be aware that their DC's are gonna suck and they're not going to have access to appropriate levels of spells.

Having said that, might not suck as a battlefield controller/buffer, if they're comfortable with that, then hey, that's what's important, no?

If after 7 lvls they feel underpowered, i'd let them utilise the re-training rules from PHBII.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It's going to suck horribadly. By the time straight casters can teleport, heal, scry and plane shift the Sorc/Ora/MT will be casting bull's strength and pretending to be useful.


I like the idea, and I've toyed with it myself before, but it will be a painful character to play.

The earliest he could get into MT would be after Sorcerer 4/Oracle 4. Think about that for a second, and you'll see why it will be painful.

He'll generally be 4 full caster levels behind the straight casters. And considering that many BBEG castes will be higher level than the party level, he'll be facing disintegrations and blade barriers while hes still throwing out flaming spheres and cure moderate wounds.


My suggestion: allow the player to take the class as a sorcerer 4/oracle 1 (or vice versa, or level 3/2 if he prefers) and don't advance spellcasting for the Mystic Theurge at levels 1 and 6 (say). That should make it a bit less painful.

Or you can take some hints from the (3.5) Ultimate Magus prestige class:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a&page=3
At levels 1, 4, and 7, it advances spellcasting in only one class, not both.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You have two choices.... either say flat out No. or let the chips fall where they may. Let him know exactly where his shortcomings are going to be, the compromises he's making and you never know, he might surprise you.

Remind the player also that he's not an island, just as he's dependent on the other people to play with, they're depending on him as well. It'll be up to him to prove his worth and pull his weight. Tell him to think on how he's going to function, he's not going to be a great divine nor a great arcanist, so he needs to think of a different route, a different angle to be useful.

And you never know, he might make it work.


better yet point him at the new Witch class

show him the cure lights mixed in arcane goodness, throw some sweet curses on top, and you might just get him away from MT.

if after seeing the witch if he's still set on MT then yeah let him play just be ready around 6th,7th,8th level to kill his charcater if he stops having fun becuase he finds it sucks and let him roll up a new character.

Or as a less painful alternative send the MT away on RP sebatical let him play a substitute charcter for those mid levels and bring the MT back in around 10th-12th level and play it again from there

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Yeah, what Phasics says - the Witch is the answer to the "Wiz/Clr" problem. Far more fun than a Mystic Theurge.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'd say let him play it. Yeah, the DC will be bad, but there are many spells that are not DC dependant and could help the party tremendously. he can take buffing spells and control spells that dont use his caster or use partial saves. The rest of the party should not dictate what a player should or shouldn't play. That would not be a fun game at all for them. He has a concept in mind, let him go with it!

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The problem is, at the level he becomes a Mystic Theurge he won't be able to help much. There is some point in the game when you are pretty much expected to have access to some spells (Teleport, Heal, etc.). If you don't have those you better have a very good reason for that, and being a Sorc 4/Ora 4/MT 1 is not the best way.

The party does not dictate the way, the party is merely dying horrendeusly while their caster can splash lvl 2 spells around, and that's not helping much at the point.

A straight Witch is a much much much better choice. Heck, even a Clr/Wiz Mystic Theurge is bearable, if you know what you are going into.


Been looking at the MT build for some time.

I want to go human druid first and then /wizard speciality Conjuration
Druid built with Weather domain, no animal companion....

Nuetral alignment

feats @ first level:
1) spell focus (conjuration)
2) augment summoning

will be giving up wildshape, but should be a great conjuror!


Ultimately the Mystic Theurge is best used in a campaign where the PCs already have a Divine and Arcane caster. The MT PC should focus on feats such as Empower Spell to make those lower-level spells they'll have to run with hit harder and heal more. Alternatively using Extend Spell can make your buffing/battlefield control spells last much longer, and given your sheer volume of spells available, you can expend the spell-slots and know you still have some more bang for your buck to come.

Conversely, Heighten Spell is a no-no for the MT. Rarely will it serve you given that you have a large, shallow-to-moderate pool of spells, as opposed to a single-classed casters deep but narrow selection.

It's a true pity Pathfinder doesn't have Practiced Spellcaster as this helps negate a big probem to the Mystic Theurge Class in that it eliminates the first few cross-class levels painful caster-level penalties.


Another problem with using Oracle with the Mystic Thurge is you would not get the Mysteries that are one of the main focuses of the class. You would also have the full curse but not get any of the later level mitigating benefits.

I woudl really not recommend using Oracle with MT. If he REALLY wants to have a Spontaneous caster from Arcane and Divine and you are willing to use a 3.5 class I woudl suggest favored soul. It does not possess teh drawbacks of the Oracle. I still woudl recommend against this but Oracle is not a good choice for MT.

Grand Lodge

The player can play whatever they want...the party has a right to kick a gimped character out of the party so they can...ummm...live. I honestly hate players who pull the it's my character I can play whatever I want and make gimped characters. Why the hell would an adventuring party bring such a liablity with them?!?


I would say that you should let the player see what all of these fine folks think and then he can better decide. It can be good to get alot of opinions and then show your players those opinions.


Cold Napalm wrote:
The player can play whatever they want...the party has a right to kick a gimped character out of the party so they can...ummm...live. I honestly hate players who pull the it's my character I can play whatever I want and make gimped characters. Why the hell would an adventuring party bring such a liablity with them?!?

In this case, I don't think that wanting to be a spontaneous divine/arcane caster is the problem -- the Mystic Theurge class is the problem. So the best solution is to fix the Mystic Theurge class rather than just saying "you suck, play something else". YMMV, of course.

Grand Lodge

hogarth wrote:
Cold Napalm wrote:
The player can play whatever they want...the party has a right to kick a gimped character out of the party so they can...ummm...live. I honestly hate players who pull the it's my character I can play whatever I want and make gimped characters. Why the hell would an adventuring party bring such a liablity with them?!?
In this case, I don't think that wanting to be a spontaneous divine/arcane caster is the problem -- the Mystic Theurge class is the problem. So the best solution is to fix the Mystic Theurge class rather than just saying "you suck, play something else". YMMV, of course.

Well MT is PARTLY the problem. Going into at level 7 is bad...but still doable if you REALLY know what your doing. The sorcerer/oracle combo is just not viable unless your starting at high levels. But yeah, MT, arcane trickster, EK...they all have issues. 3.5's answer to MC problem was to use prestige classes...PF decided to use base classes...and then promtly forgot to give MC options by that choice in the core book. Quite frankly, I think they BOTH messed up. Prestige classes should have been split up. One for MC options which had early entry requirements and one that was actual prestige classes that had HIGHER requirements.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

To the OP, does your player just want to play the mystic theruge? Or is he interested in mixing divine and arcane casting spontaneously? If he just wants to mix, the witch is a good choice, as is the Super Genius Magus

But if you want to alter the MT to make it work a little better, you may just want to lower the entry requirements so that it can be entered with Oracle 2/ Sorceror 2. This will allow it to not fall as far behind in terms of spell levels.


I agree with both the Player can play a concept character and see what does or does not work.

I also think a player can rather than optimize try something out.

The thing to look at is at each level the Player needs to understand what is being given up at that level and what are they getting in return.

I hope to ungimp MT by a druid/wizard build focusing on conjuration, a Neutral character who can summon celestial/feindish.....

So yes the choice is not even optimized for entry into MT, and it is a bad choice.

What does MT need to fix the class.

Grand Lodge

KenderKin wrote:


What does MT need to fix the class.

The same thing EK and AT needs...earlier entry. MC prestige classes are something you should be able to take after level 3.


Cold Napalm wrote:
KenderKin wrote:


What does MT need to fix the class.
The same thing EK and AT needs...earlier entry. MC prestige classes are something you should be able to take after level 3.

I have always been a fan of building prestige classes down to base classes. That is what I call early entry!!!!


KenderKin wrote:
What does MT need to fix the class.

Right now, the Mystic Theurge punishes a PC to enter and rewards him later on. The punishment & reward needs to be smoothed out over the career of the PC (e.g. a fixed Mystic Theurge should be a better caster at low levels, but end up about the same as the old Mystic Theurge at high levels).

KenderKin wrote:
I have always been a fan of building prestige classes down to base classes. That is what I call early entry!!!!

That would work, too.

Dark Archive

I don't know if you allow 3pp stuff in your games. But something to consider is The Magus by Super Genius Games. It has a bit of divine and arcane casting and if I recall correctly is a spontaneous caster.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cold Napalm wrote:
The player can play whatever they want...the party has a right to kick a gimped character out of the party so they can...ummm...live. I honestly hate players who pull the it's my character I can play whatever I want and make gimped characters. Why the hell would an adventuring party bring such a liablity with them?!?

Both attitudes can be taken to an extreme, the key is to find the individual balance so that everyone can have a good time.


Ice Titan wrote:


The player has argued that they should be able to play what they want, and I'm going to let them, but, well, I don't want them to suck, too!

What do you guys think?

I would do a few things:

First let them enter the class after level 6 rather than 8, let them be 3/3 entering rather than 4/4.

Second give them character level for their caster level (i.e. at level 7 they would have the spells of a 4th level sorcerer but cast those spells at CL 7, likewise for Oracle).

Likewise I would advance class abilities as if they had advanced in each of the base classes (bloodline etc).

Even then they are going to be sub-par, but hopefully they can contribute sufficiently. Still won't be able to replace a primary cleric or wizard, but c'est la vie.

-James


Changeing the subject a bit, I've never liked the idea of building a character simply for the assumed power level of the game, ie its assumed that a arcane caster will have access to spell X and a divine will or should have access to spell Y. Such logic, to me at lest, puts into question multi-classing of any type. Any stright up Class will be stronger in a fight then a class that is forced to blend ablities.

To me I don't assume that my players will have X, and if the game demands that they do it forces them to think outside of the box.

Moreover in terms of roleplaying the Sor/ora/theu, concept if a lot of fun in a lot of differnt ways. Tactical support to start off with, whoever is your main arcane or divine caster (assuming you have one in your group) cannot be all over the battle field all the time, such a combo character saves times and gives much needed support. Moreover don't forget scroll reading. As a whole Sorcers should be carrying a lot of scrolls anyways, not sure about the oracle yet as I've not played one long term yet.

I think James had some good ideas for the Sorcere/Oracle build. Like me he seems not to be afraid to tweek rules as needed.

Oh yes and as to the idea that no group of players would or even should tolarate such a character remember the game is supposed to be fun, and the best moments usualy comes from a groups short commings rather then their over power ablity to wipe everything off the map in three rounds.

TTFN DRE


I'm actually in the middle of playing a gnome sorcerer (arcane) 3 / Oracle (bones) 1 with the haunted curse. My plan is to take my fourth sorcerer level next and then take my first level of Mystic Theurge at character level six by means of the Alternate Source spell metamagic feat from Dragon Magazine 325. Thanks to the Magical Knack trait and the Practiced Spellcaster feat, my character's caster level in both is equal to his character level.

Grand Lodge

Ambrus wrote:
I'm actually in the middle of playing a gnome sorcerer (arcane) 3 / Oracle (bones) 1 with the haunted curse. My plan is to take my fourth sorcerer level next and then take my first level of Mystic Theurge at character level six by means of the Alternate Source spell metamagic feat from Dragon Magazine 325. Thanks to the Magical Knack trait and the Practiced Spellcaster feat, my character's caster level in both is equal to his character level.

And that kind of finagling shouldn't be needed to play a MC character.


Cold Napalm wrote:
And that kind of finagling shouldn't be needed to play a MC character.

Perhaps not, but it's only two feats and a trait; something has to be sacrificed for the added power and flexibility.

Grand Lodge

Ambrus wrote:
Cold Napalm wrote:
And that kind of finagling shouldn't be needed to play a MC character.
Perhaps not, but it's only two feats and a trait; something has to be sacrificed for the added power and flexibility.

And where did one of those feats come from? :P.


Cold Napalm wrote:
And where did one of those feats come from? :P.

Practiced Spellcaster is from Complete Divine and Complete Arcane while the Alternate Source Spell feat is from Dragon Magazine 325.


Ambrus wrote:
Cold Napalm wrote:
And where did one of those feats come from? :P.
Practiced Spellcaster is from Complete Divine and Complete Arcane while the Alternate Source Spell feat is from Dragon Magazine 325.

He trapped you, he shall be along shortly to gloat and point out how it does not work as your using non-pathfinder sources.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cold Napalm wrote:
Ambrus wrote:
I'm actually in the middle of playing a gnome sorcerer (arcane) 3 / Oracle (bones) 1 with the haunted curse. My plan is to take my fourth sorcerer level next and then take my first level of Mystic Theurge at character level six by means of the Alternate Source spell metamagic feat from Dragon Magazine 325. Thanks to the Magical Knack trait and the Practiced Spellcaster feat, my character's caster level in both is equal to his character level.
And that kind of finagling shouldn't be needed to play a MC character.

Not every arcane/divine build is equally suitable for a Mystic Theurge, which it seems was really designed around casters who prepare spells such as Wizard/Cleric/Druid. If you choose to go the spontaneous route with it's slower paths to spell mastery, you're accepting the tradeoffs of that choice.


Just to make my party mad (and possibly some people on the forums that get mad about people saying sarcastic things) I want to play a Bard/Inquisitor/Mystic Theurge.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Felgoroth wrote:
Just to make my party mad (and possibly some people on the forums that get mad about people saying sarcastic things) I want to play a Bard/Inquisitor/Mystic Theurge.

Will, this character will be very MAD.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Ambrus wrote:
Cold Napalm wrote:
And where did one of those feats come from? :P.
Practiced Spellcaster is from Complete Divine and Complete Arcane while the Alternate Source Spell feat is from Dragon Magazine 325.
He trapped you, he shall be along shortly to gloat and point out how it does not work as your using non-pathfinder sources.

Where's Admiral Ackbar when you need him?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

On duty in another galaxy, I hear.


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seekerofshadowlight wrote:
He trapped you, he shall be along shortly to gloat and point out how it does not work as your using non-pathfinder sources.

*shrug* I don't buy into the notion that all 3.X material was automatically invalidated by the release of the PFRPG. Pathfinder was intended to be backwards compatible with it. Why throw it all out the window?

Besides, Dragon Magazine 325 was published by the fine folks at Paizo.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Ambrus wrote:

Pathfinder was intended to be backwards compatible with it. Why throw it all out the window?

Because some of it was ridiculously overpowered and some was ridiculously underpowered. Divine Metamagic + Persistent Spell vs. Swashbuckler and Samurai.


Gorbacz wrote:
Because some of it was ridiculously overpowered and some was ridiculously underpowered. Divine Metamagic + Persistent Spell vs. Swashbuckler and Samurai.

Sure some of it was; just like some problems still remain in Pathfinder. It doesn't mean that everything 3.X is bad.

The general consensus seems to be that a Sorcerer/Oracle/Mystic Theurge is a crippled character from the get go. There exists no way to really make it work well within Pathfinder. But with Practiced Spellcaster, Alternate Source Spell and Magical Knack, it suddenly becomes a feasible concept; worth playing even if it'll never outpace a single-classed wizard. I fail to see how that's a bad thing.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It still fails so hard that it hurts. You're at lvl 9 (Sorc 4/Ora 4/MT1) and the apex of your magical ability are 2nd level spells. Straight casters get to 5th level and can Teleport, Plane Shift, Scry and Cloudkill. I'm not even going into save DCs and metamagic issues.


Gorbacz wrote:
It still fails so hard that it hurts. You're at lvl 9 (Sorc 4/Ora 4/MT1) and the apex of your magical ability are 2nd level spells. Straight casters get to 5th level and can Teleport, Plane Shift, Scry and Cloudkill. I'm not even going into save DCs and metamagic issues.

Psst. You might want to actually read Ambrus's method before dismissing it as madness.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Gorbacz wrote:
It still fails so hard that it hurts. You're at lvl 9 (Sorc 4/Ora 4/MT1) and the apex of your magical ability are 2nd level spells. Straight casters get to 5th level and can Teleport, Plane Shift, Scry and Cloudkill. I'm not even going into save DCs and metamagic issues.

Not so much so with the 3.5 options. He'll end up Sorc4/Orac1/MT4 at 9th according to what he wrote. If he were going straight Pathfinder you'd be correct.

I think I feel the need to rewrite the MT for my games so this isn't even a problem.


Gorbacz wrote:


Will, this character will be very MAD.

Lol ya I'll end up with a 13 in 5 stats and a 14 in another or something like that (we've been using a 20 point buy lately).

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

This thread is in a Pathfinder forum, so I assume it's about Pathfinder. If you want 3.5 wacko-jacko, there's a forum for that.


Gorbacz wrote:
This thread is in a Pathfinder forum, so I assume it's about Pathfinder. If you want 3.5 wacko-jacko, there's a forum for that.

The OP asked to know whether anyone had seen such a combo played and what others would do to make it work. I've addressed his questions with my personal experience. I don't believe advocating the use of existing material to solve a problem is "wacko-jacko".

Grand Lodge

I have no issue with using non-PF stuff for a PF game...however having to use three feats from three source to make a MC PrC work is a bad thing.


Cold Napalm wrote:
I have no issue with using non-PF stuff for a PF game...however having to use three feats from three source to make a MC PrC work is a bad thing.

Only two feats. Magical Knack is a Pathfinder trait. And sure, it is a bad thing; but at least it's an option for those who want to consider the sorcerer / oracle / MT build. The alternative is ditching the idea in favor of something else.

Grand Lodge

Ambrus wrote:
Cold Napalm wrote:
I have no issue with using non-PF stuff for a PF game...however having to use three feats from three source to make a MC PrC work is a bad thing.
Only two feats. Magical Knack is a Pathfinder trait. And sure, it is a bad thing; but at least it's an option for those who want to consider the sorcerer / oracle / MT build. The alternative is ditching the idea in favor of something else.

The trait isn't a part of core PF, so it's another source.

Or you can just fix the MT and other MC PrC.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cold Napalm wrote:
Ambrus wrote:
Cold Napalm wrote:
I have no issue with using non-PF stuff for a PF game...however having to use three feats from three source to make a MC PrC work is a bad thing.
Only two feats. Magical Knack is a Pathfinder trait. And sure, it is a bad thing; but at least it's an option for those who want to consider the sorcerer / oracle / MT build. The alternative is ditching the idea in favor of something else.

The trait isn't a part of core PF, so it's another source.

Or you can just fix the MT and other MC PrC.

Or you don't insist on going to suboptimal routes to get to Mystic Theurge. Spontaneous caster routes are suboptimal compared to Wizard/Cleric or Wizard/Druid.

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