Can you 5' step During Cleave?


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One of my players brought up this interesting scenario:

E
E
A

E = medium sized enemy
A = medium sized melee attacker with a 5' reach.

When deciding to use Cleave, can you attack the adjacent enemy, then assuming it drops, 5' step directly forward to then attack the second enemy?


"As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn."

It's a standard action so the adjacent foe would have to be in reach before you attack. Five foot step first then cleave.

However I got a sneaky idea that you are too use to the 3.5 feat and didn't read the new one.

Scarab Sages

My understanding is that they have to be standing side by side to use the Pathfinder version of Cleave, as compared to the 3.5 version which just required them to be adjacent to the character with the feat.

The specific verbiage of the feat is "If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach". Which would leave me to conclude that you could not take a 5' step in between.

Obviously, you can house rule cleave any way you wish, but I would imagine Society rules or RAW would preclude the 5' step (at least by this interpretation of the feat).


anthony Valente wrote:

One of my players brought up this interesting scenario:

E
E
A

E = medium sized enemy
A = medium sized melee attacker with a 5' reach.

When deciding to use Cleave, can you attack the adjacent enemy, then assuming it drops, 5' step directly forward to then attack the second enemy?

Why I am so drawn to threads about cleave?

I think the answer is no. Because cleave is a standard action and you can 5-ft-step before or after a standard action, but not in the middle.

But, given the scenario you describe, you wouldn't have to. Take your 5-ft-step first, diagonally:

E
E A

...and then cleave away.


SRD wrote:


You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

(emphasis mine)

My vote is that yes, it can be done.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Tem wrote:
SRD wrote:


You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

(emphasis mine)

My vote is that yes, it can be done.

The thing is, Cleave says that you need to have two opponents adjacent to each other and threatened by you to use it. So if you need to take a 5ft. step to threaten one, you can't use Cleave where you are anyway.

Grand Lodge

I agree with the above, as I do not see, short of Spring Attack, how you could attack, move and attack again. Even with 5' step.

I also do not think Spring Attack would be combinable with Cleave. The ONLY thing I see preventing the combo is that Spring Attack specifically states a SINGLE melee attack.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Tem wrote:
SRD wrote:


You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

(emphasis mine)

My vote is that yes, it can be done.

The thing is, Cleave says that you need to have two opponents adjacent to each other and threatened by you to use it. So if you need to take a 5ft. step to threaten one, you can't use Cleave where you are anyway.

You are both right. You CAN take your 5'-move during your cleave (beteen striking the first and second enemies) - BUT - in order to use the cleave feat, both enemies have to be within reach before you use the feat.

So:

E
EA

You can take your first attack at either enemy, then move thus:

EA
E

And still make your second attack.

That said, I don't see much point. Any 5' move you can make after your first attack you could have made before it or after it, and it won't change which enemies are elegible for you to cleave, so I am not sure I see much reason to worry about it. But you can do it.

Grand Lodge

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Tem wrote:
SRD wrote:


You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

(emphasis mine)

My vote is that yes, it can be done.

The thing is, Cleave says that you need to have two opponents adjacent to each other and threatened by you to use it. So if you need to take a 5ft. step to threaten one, you can't use Cleave where you are anyway.
PRD wrote:


The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.

Slightly different verbage but interesting! But this is during a Full Attack, not a standard attack.

But do you realize what this just did for my Society fighter? Holy smoke that opens up all KINDS of fighting opportunities!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

About the only use is to get access to a third enemy not threatened from the first position or adjacent to the first enemy. Very situational and not worth worrying about.

The Exchange

You are aware that you can move your full speed and then cleave, right? You can even tumble using acrobatics to avoid those pesky AoO's...

Grand Lodge

Hunterofthedusk wrote:
You are aware that you can move your full speed and then cleave, right? You can even tumble using acrobatics to avoid those pesky AoO's...

heck, 1st level fighter with AC 21... pesky little AoO? Bring em on! What a Nat 20! Crap... a CRIT! CRAP and ANOTHER one? Let me see those dice! lol


Then there's lunge and (great) cleave. -4 to AC but talk about a target rich environment...

Zo

Grand Lodge

DigMarx wrote:

Then there's lunge and (great) cleave. -4 to AC but talk about a target rich environment...

Zo

Gods bless Lunge! Best feat ever!


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Tem wrote:
SRD wrote:


You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

(emphasis mine)

My vote is that yes, it can be done.

The thing is, Cleave says that you need to have two opponents adjacent to each other and threatened by you to use it. So if you need to take a 5ft. step to threaten one, you can't use Cleave where you are anyway.

Although people often read it that way, this statement is actually false. Here's the wording for cleave:

Cleave wrote:


As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.

Note that the first sentance allows me to use cleave to make a single attack against a foe within reach. There is no requirement that anyone else is around. If I manage to hit, I'm given the opportunity to do something else. If I take my 5' step during this action, I can step forward and satisfy the requirements which allow me to make another attack against the second target.

Clearly this is not the "typical" use of cleave and it would be much simpler to just take the 5' step first, but situationally, I still think this works.


Michael Gentry wrote:


Why I am so drawn to threads about cleave?

I think the answer is no. Because cleave is a standard action and you can 5-ft-step before or after a standard action, but not in the middle.

You can even question whether the 'two' attacks in cleave are two separate attacks (which seems to be the intent) or one single attack that targets two critters.

There's a line about getting more than one attack requiring a full attack action that seems like it is in need of errata at this point,

James


Tem wrote:
SRD wrote:


You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

(emphasis mine)

My vote is that yes, it can be done.

Ah, for some reason I thought that only meant in between attacks in a full attack, but that's clearly not the case.

OK then, 5-foot-step during cleave is fine by me.


james maissen wrote:
Michael Gentry wrote:


Why I am so drawn to threads about cleave?

I think the answer is no. Because cleave is a standard action and you can 5-ft-step before or after a standard action, but not in the middle.

You can even question whether the 'two' attacks in cleave are two separate attacks (which seems to be the intent) or one single attack that targets two critters.

There's a line about getting more than one attack requiring a full attack action that seems like it is in need of errata at this point,

James

James Jacobs said that cleave is one sweeping attack leaning in and putting yourself at greater risk (hence the AC penalty) so I can't see how you can make a single sweeping attack and make a 5' step afterwards. It sounds like that the intent of the feat is to allow a single attack with such force and ferocity it carries through to the person stood next to the original target.

EDIT: The feat cleave is described as making a single attack on two adjacent foes with a single swing, I can't see that the intent was to be able to move 5' whilst making that swing.


I would say no. The attack can not be paused while you move.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

No... the 5 foot step is a separate phase from the action. That's why there are feats such as "Shot On The Run" which allow you to interperse your movement and your attack action. Movement including 5 foot adjustments can be taken before or after an attack action but not during unless a particular exception, either feat, or class ability, or magic effect etc. states otherwise.


I allow it but I feel that the feat is kinda useless to begin with and needs help just to make it an option for a player to take.

The Exchange

Spacelard wrote:


James Jacobs said that cleave is one sweeping attack leaning in and putting yourself at greater risk (hence the AC penalty) so I can't see how you can make a single sweeping attack and make a 5' step afterwards. It sounds like that the intent of the feat is to allow a single attack with such force and ferocity it carries through to the person stood next to the original target.
EDIT: The feat cleave is described as making a single attack on two adjacent foes with a single swing, I can't see that the intent was to be able to move 5' whilst making that swing.

Conceptually I can visualise a strike that sweeps through 2 opponents AS the attacker steps through by 5'.

I think that I'd allow it.


Michael Gentry wrote:
Tem wrote:
SRD wrote:


You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

(emphasis mine)

My vote is that yes, it can be done.

Ah, for some reason I thought that only meant in between attacks in a full attack, but that's clearly not the case.

OK then, 5-foot-step during cleave is fine by me.

The SRD is 3.5, not Pathfinder. The PRD has no such statement. Sorry Tem.

Yes I am aware I am using MG's post to rebuke Tem.
Yes I meant to use the word rebuke instead of rebuttal. Why, just to be different.


wraithstrike wrote:
Michael Gentry wrote:
Tem wrote:
SRD wrote:


You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

(emphasis mine)

My vote is that yes, it can be done.

Ah, for some reason I thought that only meant in between attacks in a full attack, but that's clearly not the case.

OK then, 5-foot-step during cleave is fine by me.

The SRD is 3.5, not Pathfinder. The PRD has no such statement. Sorry Tem.

Yes I am aware I am using MG's post to rebuke Tem.
Yes I meant to use the word rebuke instead of rebuttal. Why, just to be different.

That quote was from the Pathfinder SRD. It's also in the core rulebook on page 189.


So your saying you can swing..then move before you hit..then hit and do damage. Kinda is what your saying. Both attacks are one action.

The one action requires them to be adjacent Before You declare cleave. Not after you hit one. You must set it up before you make your action. Cleave disallows the move as you need to have them adjacent before you act, not after .


Cleave (Combat)
You can strike two adjacent foes with a single swing.

Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.

You could not declare using the cleave action as per the OP because the attacker didn't have anything more than a 5' reach and enemy #2 was 10' away.


I'll just summerize one more time since I really don't think this situation deserves more than what's already been said:

You can take a 5 foot step during a standard action (not just before or after but in the middle).

When you declare cleave, you need to only be adjacent to a single target (first sentance of cleave is very clear on this). You take your -2AC and make your single attack.

IF your attack hits, cleave gives you the option to make another attack. Since I can make my 5 foot step in the middle of my cleave action, I take it now to be adjacent to the enemy behind the first (assuming as posed in the original post that the attack drops the first target). Now, that second enemy is a) adjacent to the first target and b) within my reach so cleave allows me to attack him.

I'm not saying I agree that this was the intent of the rules interaction but until there is errata I will continue allowing my players to do this. It was a great tactic in 3.5 since the targets didn't have to be adjacent and is much more circumstantial now in Pathfinder.


No, Your 2nd target must be adjacent to the first and also within reach before you make the first attack. If it is not you can not cleave. You simply can not move after you start cleaving to "get into position" as cleave is not available until your in position

Cleave outlines this. They must be within reach before you cleave or you can not cleave.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:

No, Your 2nd target must be adjacent to the first and also within reach before you make the first attack. If it is not you can not cleave. You simply can not move after you start cleaving to "get into position" as cleave is not available until your in position

Cleave outlines this.

I agree. Not possible.

Also, I can see why it might be important to take your 5-foot step DURING the cleave, instead of BEFORE the cleave. A narrow hallway, a barricade, or other foe might be in the way of a diagonal step. However, the way I read the feat, they must be within reach BEFORE the 2nd attack. The reason I say this is the if/then statement in the second sentence. If you hit, then you can make an [immediate] additional attack. To me, the immediate is implied, since it is part of a single action.

Also, it seems to me that the feat is designed to allow for 1 swing to take out 2 people (even though you roll twice). Otherwise it would be called "Follow-up attack" or some such thing. I can't see a forward step working mechanically with a single swing.


I would allow it.

The following things must be true to make a second attack from the Cleave feat:

* The target must be adjacent to the attacked target.
* The target must be within reach.

Since you can take a 5 ft. step at any point during your turn (during any action), it's kind of silly to not allow the Cleave. You could have made a 5 ft. step before the first attack and then the Cleave would have most likely been allowed.

I can only think of one or two (very complicated) cases where this might help you versus not allowing the 5 ft. step during the Cleave.

Edit: Read the OP carefully -- he's really talking about the 3.5 version of Cleave.


DM_Blake wrote:

You are both right. You CAN take your 5'-move during your cleave (between striking the first and second enemies) - BUT - in order to use the cleave feat, both enemies have to be within reach before you use the feat.

So:

E
EA

You can take your first attack at either enemy, then move thus:

EA
E

And still make your second attack.

I agree with this. Certainly the rules allow a 5' step during the standard action, but it makes no sense to push through the body of an opponent to 'continue the swing' with a cleave (assuming you even drop them with the hit).

Slightly more complicated would be:

..A
E
..E

Cleaving/moving to:

E..A
..E

I think I might be inclined to allow that. He could 5' into this position to do it, but I think it makes sense as is.

EA
..E

meabolex wrote:
Edit: Read the OP carefully -- he's really talking about the 3.5 version of Cleave.

I really don't think he is. He says "assuming he drops" because that would be required to make that movement. He also says "when deciding to cleave" which is a Pathfinder-esque thing.


wraithstrike wrote:
SRD wrote:


You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

The PRD has no such statement. Sorry Tem.

It does. Combat section, under Miscellaneous Actions >> Take 5-Foot Step, second paragraph.


Tem wrote:


I'm not saying I agree that this was the intent of the rules interaction but until there is errata I will continue allowing my players to do this. It was a great tactic in 3.5 since the targets didn't have to be adjacent and is much more circumstantial now in Pathfinder.

If you are going to allow them to do it like that before errata then why bother changing it after errata.

An example there was a book that that had a 20 instead of a 2 in the chart for the weapon multiplier on a crit.

I am not against you allowing it in your game. I am against the logic that someone has to make it official before you adjust it. Blind adherence to the book is not a good thing.


Michael Gentry wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
SRD wrote:


You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

The PRD has no such statement. Sorry Tem.

It does. Combat section, under Miscellaneous Actions >> Take 5-Foot Step, second paragraph.

I saw it but the other poster used SRD instead of PRD, which confused me since they are not the same document.


Just to point out: it is a relevant question because there are several situations where you may not be able to move diagonally to either side in the scenario given: fighting in a 5' wide hallway, in a crowd, in a doorway, and so on. And yet there are other situations where it may be tactically preferable to move straight ahead instead of diagonally (to get a flank or cut off movement for instance). Add the fact that there are several opponents who can be dropped at low levels by one hit.

My opinion is that it's not the original intent of the rules but I can see room for this interpretation. The question becomes, do any subsequent targets need to be initially within reach when you declare Cleave? You can indeed 5' step during an action – in this case a standard action. Consider this scenario:

OE
OEA

O = ally
E = enemy
A = attacker

Can 'A' declare cleave, make an attack on the lower 'E' creature, then 5' step straight up to cleave into the upper 'E' creature? Doing so would give him the advantage of benefiting from flank bonuses on each one.


Majuba wrote:
meabolex wrote:
Edit: Read the OP carefully -- he's really talking about the 3.5 version of Cleave.
I really don't think he is. He says "assuming he drops" because that would be required to make that movement. He also says "when deciding to cleave" which is a Pathfinder-esque thing.

But dropping isn't required to make that movement. . . He could also make the 5 ft. step before declaring the Cleave.

Quote:
Can 'A' declare cleave, make an attack on the lower 'E' creature, then 5' step straight up to cleave into the upper 'E' creature? Doing so would give him the advantage of benefiting from flank bonuses on each one.

That's a good example of how the 5 ft. step mid-Cleave would be a benefit. Actually, in that example, both conditions are true for Cleave initially -- within reach and adjacent. I'd still allow it.


I see nothing in the cleave ability that says that you need 2 opponents in reach to declare a cleave. In fact, it does not even say you need 2 opponents to declare cleave. It only says you may make a second attack against an adjacent opponent within reach if you hit. Since you can 5 ft step in the middle of the cleave, this can adjust the area you reach. You can in fact 5 ft step in the middle of cleave and satisfy all the conditions for cleave in the situation the OP presented, assuming you drop your opponent in the fist round.

I see this as you walking forward in the middle of your strike and not only dropping the first guy, but the second as well. Quite thematic, quite useful, and not really over powered at all.

Cleave does not even say you need to use the same weapon on the attacks, allowing you to use armor spikes and a reach weapon with 1 cleave. Since you can use free actions to interupt other actions, you can even drop your weapon and quickdraw a reach weapon to hit both guys if you do not drop the first guy. I think these are against the spirit of the rules, but they are not prohibitted by the rules at all.


Caineach wrote:


Cleave does not even say you need to use the same weapon on the attacks, allowing you to use armor spikes and a reach weapon with 1 cleave. Since you can use free actions to interupt other actions, you can even drop your weapon and quickdraw a reach weapon to hit both guys if you do not drop the first guy. I think these are against the spirit of the rules, but they are not prohibitted by the rules at all.

No, I guess it doesn't. But it SHOULD say that it needs to be the same weapon. Allowing a 5ft step mid-cleave bends the intent of the feat. Switching weapons mid-attack completely breaks the intent. Or, at least that's my opinion.

I feel an eratta is in order.


Jason Rice wrote:


No, I guess it doesn't. But it SHOULD say that it needs to be the same weapon. Allowing a 5ft step mid-cleave bends the intent of the feat. Switching weapons mid-attack completely breaks the intent. Or, at least that's my opinion.

I feel an eratta is in order.

None needed

1: Cleave is a standard action
2: Drawing a weapon is a move action
3: You can not use a move action in the middle of a standard action[ before or after yes not in the middle of}
4: Attacking with 2 weapons is a full round action
5: You can not use both a standard action and a full round action at the same time.

Scarab Sages

The only consideration for this is that if you allow a 5' step in the middle of a cleave, then by this logic, you also have to allow it for other combat feats. A 5' step during Great Cleave or Whirlwind Attack make those feats immensely better. Despite what the rules say for 5' step, I don't think the intention was for it to be used in the middle of a specific combat feat, because if so, it makes some feats much more powerful.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Jason Rice wrote:


No, I guess it doesn't. But it SHOULD say that it needs to be the same weapon. Allowing a 5ft step mid-cleave bends the intent of the feat. Switching weapons mid-attack completely breaks the intent. Or, at least that's my opinion.

I feel an eratta is in order.

None needed

1: Cleave is a standard action
2: Drawing a weapon is a move action
3: You can not use a move action in the middle of a standard action[ before or after yes not in the middle of}
4: Attacking with 2 weapons is a full round action
5: You can not use both a standard action and a full round action at the same time.

Rule 2 is incorrect if you have quickdraw.

Also, there are multiple ways to wield a reach weapon and non-reach weapon. Armor spikes + reach weapon is the easiest, but you can also use a small reach weapon as a medium creature in 1 hand and take a -2 penalty. Then you can dual wield with it.


True, forgot about QD, however 4 and 5 are still in effect. You can not attack with more then one weapon as a standard action.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
True, forgot about QD, however 4 and 5 are still in effect. You can not attack with more then one weapon as a standard action.

You cannot attack with more than 1 weapon with an attack action, since you . Can you point to some place in the rules where it says you cannot attack with more than 1 weapon if you have multiple attacks, which cleave gives you? I have not found any. Just like you can attack with multiple weapons without taking any 2WF penalty if you don't want the extra attacks durring a full attack action.


Not with the same action you can not. Attacking with 2 weapons in the same round is TWF.


redcelt32 wrote:

The only consideration for this is that if you allow a 5' step in the middle of a cleave, then by this logic, you also have to allow it for other combat feats. A 5' step during Great Cleave or Whirlwind Attack make those feats immensely better. Despite what the rules say for 5' step, I don't think the intention was for it to be used in the middle of a specific combat feat, because if so, it makes some feats much more powerful.

Or Step Up, Lunge


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Not with the same action you can not. Attacking with 2 weapons in the same round is TWF.

There is nothing in the rules preventing you from using different weapons for each of your normal itterative attacks. You can do this by either holding different weapons or drawing them with quickdraw. Thrown weapons, in fact, require you to do this. You can also use quickdraw to pull a bow out mid full attack and shoot enemies at range with your later attacks. You only need TWF if you want to actually get extra attacks, and then it only applies to full attacks.


I would not allow it. Eh ya can do what ya like, but if ya use more then one weapon per attack action then yes it's twf. Your using a 2nd weapon to do a extra attack so it is TWF and does not work with cleave.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

You can, however, use a different end of a double weapon without TWF, as long as you aren't trying to take more than your regular number of iterative attacks.

Sovereign Court

anthony Valente wrote:

One of my players brought up this interesting scenario:

E
E
A

E = medium sized enemy
A = medium sized melee attacker with a 5' reach.

When deciding to use Cleave, can you attack the adjacent enemy, then assuming it drops, 5' step directly forward to then attack the second enemy?

The rules clearly support that you can move DURING an action such as an attack action using cleave with a 5' step, but only if you have not already moved that round (pg. 189). So Bravo.

However, due to the wording of Cleave, this could be a moot point depending on the positioning of the enemies. It does not state that the second target had to be within reach of you when you made the first swing. Thus, you could swing, kill, step up as a 5' move, swing again at a target that was adjacent to the first. This could be a crucial step if you also have great cleave.

However, please remember to observe the other rules as well. Observe difficult terrain. Observe the fact that you may not take a move action to move and then also get a 5' step, etc.

RAW, I do not believe there is any case that a 5' step is not allowed. It looks to be very straightforward if you take off your 3.5E hat.


No, it doesn't work.

At the time of 3.5, the frenzied berzerker had the "Supreme Cleave" ability that allowed him to take a single 5'step in between Cleaves. Without it, tough luck.

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