I'm looking for second opinions and work-arounds that I haven't thought of yet in my Rise of the Runelords campaign. We've just started Hook Mountain Massacre and the party just cleared the barn and is about to enter the house of the Graul homestead. Currently the party consists of;
lvl 7 Barbarian (grapple)
lvl 7 Monk/Rogue/Assassin
lvl 6 Druid (on standby currently)
lvl 6 Cleric
lvl 8 Bard/Fighter/Arcane Archer
The issue I have is that with his new level and equipment, the Bard has Min/Maxed himself out ridiculously to the point that it's causing a huge problem with the party makeup, and as a result has skewed CR difficulties. The Bard is the party archer, and has Min/Maxed to the point where he deals 1d8+13+1+2d6 per arrow. Combined with a full round attack using manyshot and rapid shot, he's pumping out 4 arrows on a full attack option. That's 4d8+52+4+8d6, a damage range of 68-136, average 102 damage on a full attack option. Considerably more on critical hits. This is a bit much for a level 7 mod.
His to hit is +11/11/6 when doing this. (Also, none of the to hit/damage calculations are taking into count the possibility of Precise Shot feat, which would add an additional +1 hit/damage to every shot.)
This means that when he is facing off against Jaagrath Kreeg, captain of the Kreeg ogres, he needs to roll a minimum of 4/4/9 to deal that kind of damage to him. If he did exact average damage, Jaagrath, including his damage reduction, would have only 12 hp left after one volley from the Bard, with a very very good chance of being one shot entirely. Dorella and Gragavan would be downed in one full attack. Gorger and Chaw has a good chance of being downed in one round by the Bard as well. Lucretia ACTUALLY has a chance of lasting more than a single round with the bard needing to roll a 17/17/20 to hit her. Grazuul, at 140 hp, barring a critical hit, would survive until the SECOND round before splatting... assuming the Bard solo'd him. Party support could still drop him in the first round. For the most part, the Bard could solo the entire module at this point.
Every other lackey Ogre is even easier, the Grauls encountered already such as Crowfood have been single shot before they got within range of the party.
I'm not throwing this mod at them without a challenge. I refuse to play a mod as a cakewalk for them. Unfortunately, i'm really stretching for ways to counteract the MinMaxer without blatantly invoking rule 0 all over the place ("Uhh.. yeah. ALL ogres have DR 10 in my world." *eyeshift*) ("Oh sure, Ogres are wizards all the time. So about that Windwall..") or upping the CR's to a point where it starts eroding any sort of "safety zone" in standard encounters, making it so that a series of bad rolls could easily flip things towards a TPK.
Yes, i've talked to the player and it's how he chooses to play his character in the party. His entire character "concept" revolves around practically firing missiles from his bow, so the problem is now on me as a DM to deal with it.
Short of DM wrath, what are some better options for me here? Specifically, how can I alter Hook Mountain to up the challenge against the Bard without TPKing the rest of the party, and keep the entire module from being cakewalked?
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An archery specialist is doing enough damage to matter? I'm not surprised.
Off the top of my head, add more weaker ogres to the encounters. A handful of CR 3s gives him more targets to worry about. But honestly, this is exactly the way he should be, and against large, low AC targets, about what I would expect.
Why is the Arcane Archer two levels ahead of the party?
That seems like your biggest problem right there.
My whole party didn't hit 8th until after retaking ft. rannick, and the did so at the same time. And I've been jacking up the CR on pretty much every encounter, but the party is all 8th level so they can deal with 8th level problems.
I don't envy your position, but it's likely the problem isn't this guy's character, it's the level disparity. In the same party, an 8th level Wizard would start to clearly dominate at range as well.
I don't know how you can slow the Archer's development or why he's in the lead, but if it's possible I would try to slow the whole party down a bit so that they hit 8th after Rannick, and only reach 9th at the very end of the AP. These levels seem to work well for a Pathfinder party.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Yeah, I had the same issue. Mine was a ranger with favored enemy - giant and the Big Game Hunter campaign feat, along with all the usual archer goodies. She was capable of averaging 120 points of damage per round to a giant, and missed only on 1/1/5(or 4?) with most of the ogres.
Cover. Concealment. Mirror image. Blur. Things like that were all I could do without killing the rest of the group. Don't know what you'd do if your bard has the feats to ignore that stuff, though.
I did use her as a weapon, once. I gave one of the ogre barbarians the improvised weapon feat tree, won the initiative, based her before she could shoot, grappled her, and began using her to beat the rest of the party into submission. Good times. They still won the fight, and no one died, but it's the one they talk about the most.
Otherwise, TOZ is right: throw in more little guys. So long as he doesn't know which ones are key, the bard should be occupied while you get the boss giants into good tactical spots (like right on top of him). Minions can also provide cover to the leaders while you position.
For Grazuul, keep him in the water. Grab a party member and dive. Arrows won't do any good, then.
Also, why's he 8th level while everyone else is lower? If the answer is that everyone else has had to remake characters due to death, you've proven you're willing to off a party member. Introduce your bard problem to that status, as well. Enough ogres hear about the "great giant slayer" and they'll all want a piece of him to show how tough they are. Feel free to completely ignore the rest of the party in favor of getting your ogre on with the archer. You need to even out the party levels. That helps in designing appropriate challenges.
[Edit] Evil Lincoln -> Ninja
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Dont forget that most of this combat will be taking place inside the house (if not all) so the ogre-kins can position themselves to gain cover through various corners, other occupants in the room etc. Other creatures can provide soft cover...
As you get past this stage and more into the mountains, remember that the hags are influencing the weather, so there could be very windy days on the dam where missile weapons dont function as well
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Sorry, continuing ideas are running through my head as I sit here. The Gruals are very crafty folk, as they have rigged up many traps. You could have them throw down something slick on the floor (bucket of lamp oil soapy water-well maybe NOT that as I dont think they washed in a long long time, etc), causing the archer and other PCs to make a balance/acrobatics check as they attack...
DmRrostarr makes a few excellent points.
Chief among them is the fact that it is ALWAYS raining in HMM, save for the brief moment after they drive off Black Magga. Since control weather is at work, you're within your right to add violent wind. Change the severity every couple of scenes. If the player notices and complains, you've actually done your duty, because we're supposed to call their attention to the strange and horrible weather.
This is a good solution. I remember when I was playing an archer and I managed to hit despite really severe wind penalties, it felt completely great.
Well the feats he has are;
Point blank shot, arcane strike, Precise shot, Deadly aim, weapon focus (Comp longbows) weapon specialization (comp longbows), rapid shot, Weapon training +1 (bows), manyshot, far shot
He's using a +1 Comp longbow str+4 with frost, shocking.
He has an 18 strength and a 22 Dex if i remember right. Can't remember the rest of the specifics off hand.
TriOmegaZero, I heartily disagree. I don't believe that a build should be about being able to nearly solo the entire adventure in one round kills, including many of the (supposedly) tougher fights. There's no accomplishment or achievement with "Push X to Win!" playstyle. This type of damage output i have no problem with, at LATER levels. In a level 7 campaign, It's overpowering.
Reason for the level spread on characters is because of multiple factors, including some players not making a few sessions, and others joining the party late. The Bard *just* hit level 8, and everyone else is about to level, and in fact should this next game session. So the levels will soon be 7/7/8/8/8. The Bard has not missed a session, and has gone above and beyond to try to earn extra xp and squeeze every last drop wherever he can, including character description and writeups, and even recalculating my own XP rewards to make sure I don't miss anything. He's not too far ahead of the party however.
DMRrostarr, that's an AWESOME idea! I completely forgot about that. And it's perfect, i've actually been stressing that it's been raining /all the time/ now for weeks. This would be a perfect buildup to the ogre shamen, and at least reign him in until later levels when it's not a big deal anymore.
i didn't think rapid shot and manyshot were combinable?
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My first thought is, make an ogre ranger archer with an appropriate strength composite bow and shoot back (with human favored enemy of course). Or Wind Wall and Protection from Arrows- spread a few ogre charms, like feather tokens, that have 1 use of these around to the main leader ogres. Esp if any of the previous villians have escaped to report the party tactics. Or, add a quickling into the fray and have him cast shatter a few times on the bow. He has partial concealment when running I believe as well.
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Mammy Graul has a toad familiar, Blub-Blug, that could easily spy on the PCs as they explored the overgrown farmstead (Stealth +21). He could inform Mammy of this ridiculously deadly archer, and that the adventurers have entered the house. As a clever ogrekin who clashed with The Black Arrows for years, Mammy would know a thing or two about dealing with archers.
She'd send Blub-Blug to intercept the PCs in the central hallway outside her room, surprise attacking (there's lots of crud for a little toad to hide in) the archer with a Contagion - Blinding Sickness delivered by proxy touch attack. The zombies would then rush from her room, providing cover as she layered a Blindness/Deafness spell on him, just to be sure. Her following spell would be Grease on his bow. This all assumes she has Mirror Image and Displacement up, which makes the timing of the Contagion spell tricky.
It's not a solution, but the archer player should know that the NPCs can react to his awesomeness.
As for the ogres and Lucretia of Fort Rannick, they all have darkvision, and the stronghold has few windows. Decent lighting is usually hand-waved in most adventures, but it you're really having problems with an archer PC let the NPCs use the darkness to their advantage. The interior of that place could be a pitch-black charnel house.
For example, Jaargrath Kreeg can charge out of complete darkness, through torchlight range and into melee in a single move. If he has some reason to focus on the archer, he has a CMB +22 to sunder the bow. An average damage roll would snap a magical +1 bow in two (Hardness 5, 15 HP).
Read my Changes for 6 players and make the encounters to that level
Also, some of the resources available to the Grauls include stoneskin and resist energy. 3 spells per major Graul - that have very respectable durations - and you will see the damage output radically decrease. Even 1st level CL resist energy utterly ignores the frost and shocking damage components, while stoneskin sloughs 10 points off per hit.
The Grauls are all VERY strong - improvised tower shields are easy to acquire from a table or section of wall. At hardness 5, 20 or so hit points per shield, that takes some serious damage output to chew through one deliberately. And in game terms, in a way requiring a melee guy to hack through them with an axe first.
On top of the weather conditions, using Mammy Graul to coordinate with her surviving kin to buff them ALL to deal with these upstarts - and hopefully toss resist energy to fire on quite a few of them.
Mammy is slothful for sure - but these are her offspring and kin, and once a certain threshold is crossed she will rouse to action. There are other very excellent ideas posted above as well! Especially remembering that the Grauls are primarily encamped within the house.
Just be aware that the party may well elect to simply fireball the place, although the heavy rainstorm will put the idea of simply burning them out completely out of consideration, as the rainfall will extinguish anything short of a fire storm before any significant damage can be done.
They could smoke out the Grauls as well, should they be clever enough. The Graul's traps will make things interesting however.
If need be, one could convert one of the Grauls to a druid, tapping the weather to rain call lightning upon them from the roof...
One more thing:
This doesn't seem like min-maxing to me. The guy took a pretty obvious character concept, one that also happens to be neat, and built a solid character.
There's the perennial problem with these RPGs where you can make a "good" or a "bad" character. The GM ought to give you a good challenge regardless of how well-made your character is. So the most brilliantly built character in the world should still not have an easy time of it.
I admire you looking for a fair solution, in this case, because it's a tough problem. Strong winds should help for now, but in the long term, look at evening out the party levels so you can jack up the power level. Adding CR to the monsters is one of the few customization opportunities we AP GMs are afforded.
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Well the feats he has are;
Point blank shot, arcane strike, Precise shot, Deadly aim, weapon focus (Comp longbows) weapon specialization (comp longbows), rapid shot, Weapon training +1 (bows), manyshot, far shotHe's using a +1 Comp longbow str+4 with frost, shocking.
He has an 18 strength and a 22 Dex if i remember right. Can't remember the rest of the specifics off hand.
TriOmegaZero, I heartily disagree. I don't believe that a build should be about being able to nearly solo the entire adventure in one round kills, including many of the (supposedly) tougher fights. There's no accomplishment or achievement with "Push X to Win!" playstyle. This type of damage output i have no problem with, at LATER levels. In a level 7 campaign, It's overpowering.
Reason for the level spread on characters is because of multiple factors, including some players not making a few sessions, and others joining the party late. The Bard *just* hit level 8, and everyone else is about to level, and in fact should this next game session. So the levels will soon be 7/7/8/8/8. The Bard has not missed a session, and has gone above and beyond to try to earn extra xp and squeeze every last drop wherever he can, including character description and writeups, and even recalculating my own XP rewards to make sure I don't miss anything. He's not too far ahead of the party however.
DMRrostarr, that's an AWESOME idea! I completely forgot about that. And it's perfect, i've actually been stressing that it's been raining /all the time/ now for weeks. This would be a perfect buildup to the ogre shamen, and at least reign him in until later levels when it's not a big deal anymore.
I'm not sure of the math here. In your earlier post you said each arrow does 1d8+13+1+2d6, and a full round attack 4d8+52+4+8d6. I'm assuming, with the feat and special ability structure, he's a Bard 1/Fighter 6/Arcane Archer 1.
Enhancement bonuses for ranged weapons do not stack with enhancement bonuses for ammunition. It's either +1 from the bow or +1 for the Arcane Archer ability. Additionally the Arcane Archer imbues only non-magical ammunition, and a magical bow makes all its ammunition magical. What does he hope to gain from his Arcane Archer levels when he has a bow that trumps most of its abilities?
This is what I'm getting for a damage bonus:
Strength +4
Weapon bonus +1
Point Blank Shot +1
Weapon Training +1
Arcane Strike +1
Weapon Specialization +2
Deadly Aim +2 (his BAB should be +7)
Frost 1d6
Shock 1d6
That's 1d8 +12 +2d6.
Also, the wording for the Frost, Shock, Flaming weapon abilities each require a command word and are only in effect until "another command is given". Players will probably toss stones at me, but this implies that each command supersedes the last, meaning it's either Frost or Shock - not both.
This is what I'm getting for a damage bonus:
Strength +4
Weapon bonus +1
Point Blank Shot +1
Weapon Training +1
Arcane Strike +1
Weapon Specialization +2
Deadly Aim +2 (his BAB should be +7)
Frost 1d6
Shock 1d6That's 1d8 +12 +2d6.
It should be +4 for Deadly Aim, not +2 (-2 to attack, +4 dmg). That's 1d8+13+2d6 (+1 if PBS counts), as the original poster said.
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It should be +4 for Deadly Aim, not +2 (-2 to attack, +4 dmg). That's 1d8+13+2d6 (+1 if PBS counts), as the original poster said.This is what I'm getting for a damage bonus:
Strength +4
Weapon bonus +1
Point Blank Shot +1
Weapon Training +1
Arcane Strike +1
Weapon Specialization +2
Deadly Aim +2 (his BAB should be +7)
Frost 1d6
Shock 1d6That's 1d8 +12 +2d6.
Yup. My bad. Also, I just read the exception for magical bows under the the Arcane Archer entry. I missed it the first time around.
So it's still a +1 from the bow or the imbue ability, but he can stack non-conflicting special abilities on the arrows, though they're technically magical. That's a strangely worded caveat - "non-magical ammunition" - given the exceptions.
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I've noticed so far in this adventure path that many of the maps are fairly enclosed, and the graul house is no exception. Don't be afraid to use combat maneuvers like bullrush, to keep the party arranged in a positive manor. In tightly enclosed spaces like a house, an archer can quickly find himself adjacent to hulking death with nowhere to move to, or to at least necessitate a turn of frantically trying to scramble away to a better position
This is what I'm getting for a damage bonus:
Strength +4 ; Weapon bonus +1 ; Point Blank Shot +1 ; Weapon Training +1 ; Arcane Strike +1 ; Weapon Specialization +2 ; Deadly Aim +4 ; Frost 1d6 ; Shock 1d6That's 1d8 +13 +2d6, +1PB.
Don't forget Inspire Courage for 1 more :)
Biggest problem seems to be his ability scores pushing things past the edge. He had to have started with at least two 16's (before race), with a belt of physical might (+2 Str, +2 Dex), or two 18's. If the rest of his scores are lopsided with those two, he could be rather fragile.
Particularly since it looks like he must have spent almost all his gold on offense (18k for the bow, that belt (if he has it) would cost 8-10k). Of course a 22 Dex kinda helps that...
First off, that bow costs something like 19,000gp. Suggested wealth for 8th level is 33,000. Either he has little other equipment, or he is way over-gold. (O.G.) I think it would be within reason to limit it to only one type of additional energy damage at a time. Just for a level or two.
Keep the ogres out of the open. I found this out in the 1st combat when I noticed how weak their ranged attacks are. Jagrath doesn't even have a ranged weapon. And their armor classes? Damn, Mintuck, put some armored pants on or something.
If the players waste a few ogres out in the open, don't worry about it. Every member of the group should be able to waste an ogre or two every round without too much trouble at level 8.
I would suggest skeletons and zombies. Both soak 5 from an archer, and you can add all kinds of templates to them.
When I GM'd The Hook, I made a big point about how much or a serious climb it was. Attacks by yeti rogues, and wind and snow. Once the players are inside the hook the smoke from the forges is thick in the air. Everything beyond 20' has 20% concealment, and there is no vision beyond 60'.
And one last thing - darkness. Many encounters take place in dark areas. A normal torch is only bright light out to 20', a sunrod to 30' and it takes a daylight spell to get out to 60'.
First off, that bow costs something like 19,000gp. Suggested wealth for 8th level is 33,000. Either he has little other equipment, or he is way over-gold. (O.G.) I think it would be within reason to limit it to only one type of additional energy damage at a time. Just for a level or two.
He's specifically saving ALL his gold to spend on his bow. I tried shattering it twice back before he got it enchanted (once by Erylium, once by Nualia) but he made both saves, but then It was more just opportunity than anything else. Should it ever be sundered, he's gonna be sore he sunk all his eggs in one basket.
His stats are rolled. <side rant> The party was originally DM'd by a different DM who allowed a very crazy set of character creation rules. Part of this was a stat roll system that skewed stats to superhero averages. He also allowed monster classes... for example, the Bard is a Drow with Darkvision. (And politely made being a drow a non issue in town by also letting him start with a hat of disguise) So darkness isn't a problem. The old DM even gave the level one party a ring of Invisibility. (WTF??) Since then he dumped the game in my lap and became a player, then eventually quit the group. I've since salvaged the group and made it more normal and less monty haul munchkin. That ring didn't stick around long.</side rant>
I've been keeping the group on a fairly even keel for a while now, which is why I popped an eyebrow when this new super bow damage popped up. I want to keep things from getting out of hand at the first sign of trouble, especially since there's still a little bit of the munchkin aftermath in the game still around from the previous DM. For the most part I think things are under control... i've got some GREAT ideas here to keep the Bard in check and not blow through the module too easy. Next game is today (Saturday), i'll let you know how it goes.
Regular Drow is tolerable at this level - Drow Noble is a whole different basket of eggs.
The funny thing about darkness is the Drow Bard-Archer is going to be sucking on his own basket of eggs every time the group needs to see in the dark via magical light sources of real significance, such as daylight. Check their light blindness (or what ever it is) 'racial trait' in the Bestiary.
Archers are deadly - but they are ranged, with all the limitations inherent to being a ranged weapon attacker: no area of threat or reach, finite ammunition supply, often lower AC. The latter is due to wanting to retain a 30' speed and lowered encumbrance levels in game terms - meaning armor and encumbrance load out MUST be light and a shield is generally not even an option to seriously consider.
You can disarm his bow as well as sunder it - and ogre hooks are pretty good at both combat maneuvers. More likely however, the terrain and climate on Hook Mountain will render him pretty useless outside of the Graul's preferred terrain: inside their buildings.
Keep us posted - I'm sure we'll see the gruesome results shortly!
I would *NOT* create encounters specifically designed to foil the character's strengths. This will only create resentment. Instead, think of ways to create encounters that *also* require the other characters' strengths. That way the archer can still do his thing, but there are other creatures/challenges in the encounter that require the help of the other PCs.
Also, I would consider doing things to boost up the others in the party to try to balance things out. Magic items are obvious (and good!) options. Again, this is a more positive way to balance the party than cutting the one player down. Once the others are closer to the archer, you can increase the difficulty of the encounters overall so that it doesn't become a cake walk.
Never, ever, ever punish a player for creating a strong character. Let him reap the rewards! But there are things you can do as a DM to help the other PCs feel important and valuable as well.
You can't use Many Shot and Rapid Shot in the same round. Many Shot is a Full Attack. Rapid Shot is a Standard Attack. They dont' combine or stack. You can only do one or the other.
Manyshot and Rapid Shot are indeed combinable. Neither Manyshot nor Rapid Shot are an action in and of themselves. Both must be used with a full-round action.
When making a full-attack action with a bow, your first attack fires two arrows.
When making a full-attack action with a ranged
weapon, you can fire one additional time this round.
Definitely keep track of his arrows.
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Sunder works like a charm for taking out pesky archers. That bow would have 7 hardness and 15 HP.
If it were my campaign, I would allow the archer some time to shine and wait until they had a fight with an intelligent boss and some mooks and after archer boy unleashes the fury against the wrong group of baddies, I'd have the boss order the mooks to fix the problem.
A Kreeg fighter has a CMB of 17 and averages 24.5 damage against a CMD of 11 (7+4). Even a plain ogre has a CMB of +9 and averages 16 points of damage (enough to make it damaged (-2/-2) in round 1 of sundering).
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Well the feats he has are;
Point blank shot, arcane strike, Precise shot, Deadly aim, weapon focus (Comp longbows) weapon specialization (comp longbows), rapid shot, Weapon training +1 (bows), manyshot, far shot.
Just a quick question. I'm probably making a mistake here, but I count 9 actual feats (not counting weapon training).
He's not human. He gets four feats for being an 8th-level character, and four feats for being a 6th-Level fighter. Where's the 9th feat coming from?
First off, that bow costs something like 19,000gp. Suggested wealth for 8th level is 33,000. Either he has little other equipment, or he is way over-gold. (O.G.) I think it would be within reason to limit it to only one type of additional energy damage at a time. Just for a level or two.He's specifically saving ALL his gold to spend on his bow. I tried shattering it twice back before he got it enchanted (once by Erylium, once by Nualia) but he made both saves, but then It was more just opportunity than anything else. Should it ever be sundered, he's gonna be sore he sunk all his eggs in one basket.
His stats are rolled. <side rant> The party was originally DM'd by a different DM who allowed a very crazy set of character creation rules. Part of this was a stat roll system that skewed stats to superhero averages. He also allowed monster classes... for example, the Bard is a Drow with Darkvision. (And politely made being a drow a non issue in town by also letting him start with a hat of disguise) So darkness isn't a problem. The old DM even gave the level one party a ring of Invisibility. (WTF??) Since then he dumped the game in my lap and became a player, then eventually quit the group. I've since salvaged the group and made it more normal and less monty haul munchkin. That ring didn't stick around long.</side rant>
I've been keeping the group on a fairly even keel for a while now, which is why I popped an eyebrow when this new super bow damage popped up. I want to keep things from getting out of hand at the first sign of trouble, especially since there's still a little bit of the munchkin aftermath in the game still around from the previous DM. For the most part I think things are under control... i've got some GREAT ideas here to keep the Bard in check and not blow through the module too easy. Next game is today (Saturday), i'll let you know how it goes.
Well, you're the GM, so you can make any house rule you like, as long as you tell the players beforehand and give them a chance to talk about it. It sounds like a lot of your situation comes from letting players bring in characters from another GM's campaign. A Monty-Haul style GM.
First, a Drow? Aren't they very Evil in Golorian...without exception?
Second, how'd he get such an awesome bow? Unless the other GM allowed him to get it, you should have control over what is available in the game. Just because someone has the $$ to buy it doesn't mean it exists. So when you finally Sunder this one, another should be very hard to find.
Third, why is he getting to recalculate the XP you give out? I'd be seriously offended if one of my players wanted to "check my math" on a game I was GMing.
Overall, though, it sounds like this is a case of uber-characters from another GM. You should feel free to have people adjust or recreate characters if you ae GMing...
but there are lots of good suggestions for how to bring this character in line thoughout this thread. Good luck.
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I'm going to piggyback on gigglestick's comments.
Well, you're the GM, so you can make any house rule you like, as long as you tell the players beforehand and give them a chance to talk about it.
There were several long and contentious threads about this topic a couple months ago. Some tables have a GM-is-the-law philosophy, and other groups have a more egalitarian practice. Each side, of course, thought they were the only legitimate style of play.
First, a Drow? Aren't they very Evil in Golorian...without exception?
Really, there's nothing to be done about that now, except tearing up the character sheet and demanding the player come up with an entirely new character.
And the "no drow" rule is the default assumption in Golarion, but it's also the default assumption that the incidents of any given AP never happen. So even if every campaign starts with the defaults, it moves away from them immediately. The PC may bethe first non-evil drow, or there may be a few, or may be the result of a helm of opposite alignment, or may, in fact, be evil. (One of the iconics is evil, and that doesn't seem to bother anybody.)
Second, how'd he get such an awesome bow? Unless the other GM allowed him to get it, you should have control over what is available in the game. Just because someone has the $$ to buy it doesn't mean it exists. So when you finally Sunder this one, another should be very hard to find.
Well, wouldn't that suck? A PC sinks all his feats and effort into a perfectly legal combat style*, sinks the lion's share of his wealth into a weapon that accommodates that style, and then the bastard GM ruins the weapon and won't let the PC get it fixed.
That sounds like "that player is having too much fun, and the GM needs to show him who's boss." Which I'm sure is not what gigglestick is suggesting.
* Again, where is that ninth feat coming from?
Sundering is good and logical in this situation. Just keep in mind:
Damaging Magic Weapons: An attacker cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon struck.
If you want to take the sting out of the loss you could give the archer a giant bane bow. He would still destroy loads of giants, but other players won't be over shadowed in every combat. Remember that most of the Kreeg ogres are very disposable, and taking out even the named ogres in a single round is quite possible with a little planning.
I should also point out that it to totally within reason to "reset" the campaign a little to better fit your style. A generous point-buy that is equal for everyone, an equipment reset (everyone has approx. 9th level wealth (No items above 16K) by the end of the mod.) and perhaps even a switch to players handbook races - you can still be a "drow", but your stats are the same as a normal elf.
Good luck, and please let us know how it goes!
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Sundering is good and logical in this situation. Just keep in mind:
Damaging Magic Weapons: An attacker cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon struck.
Just curious, is that the PF rule? I couldn't find it in the PFSRD but I don't have the book in front of me.
Either way, It counts as a +1 weapon enhancement bonus-wise so a smart boss (who at this stage all have magic weapons) will try to take it out. I know that as a player, I have successfully sundered a number of uber-archer bad guys. They're really squishy, don't fight back and they totally suck once they switch to the dagger on their belt.
It took a little while to find, but it is under Damaging Magic Weapons.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/weapons.html
I should add that sundering the bow is probably not the best way to handle this. The player made a foolish mistake in spending the vast majority of his wealth on a single item. While you could teach him a lesson, there would probably be a better outcome if you work things out -outside of game. If the player isn't willing to compromise, by all means, sunder that thing to splinters!
I would definitely keep track of his ammunition too, on a separate sheet behind the screen, AND I will keep a very careful eye on the state of the ammunition too. An area effect spell could damage some of the arrows in the quiver, the strap could get damaged in a battle and the quiver fall to the ground, etc...
Anyway I know what you mean with minmaxers, it's my party's disease, they killed malfeshnekor in 2 rounds. The barbarian alone was dealing 1d10+13 points of damage at the 4th level.
I would *NOT* create encounters specifically designed to foil the character's strengths. This will only create resentment. Instead, think of ways to create encounters that *also* require the other characters' strengths. That way the archer can still do his thing, but there are other creatures/challenges in the encounter that require the help of the other PCs.
No no no, I'm definitely against doing things like that. I'm not creating specific "Anti bard" encounters. I still want him to shine. I just want him to shine but still have to WORK for it for more than just a single full round action every time. No "press X to win" in my games allowed.
Never, ever, ever punish a player for creating a strong character. Let him reap the rewards! But there are things you can do as a DM to help the other PCs feel important and valuable as well.
I never once said I was punishing him. I'm trying to keep him in check with the game. There are other very powerful PC's, but they still stay balanced. The Bard is going heavy handed. I am not punishing him, but any DM who allows a game to be stampeded through without the players breaking a sweat is not evoking any emotions from the players, is not engaging them, and is not rewarding them for their hard work, and in the end is failing as a DM.
The Bard is actually very very good at keeping track of his arrows. He keeps strict track of them, tries to recover ones he can, and keeps a huge stockpile of them in his quiver. The actual total never has become an issue because he has a magic quiver that holds large amounts of them. (forgot the name of it).
Just a quick question. I'm probably making a mistake here, but I count 9 actual feats (not counting weapon training).
He's not human. He gets four feats for being an 8th-level character, and four feats for being a 6th-Level fighter. Where's the 9th feat coming from?
He gets an extra from a trait or flaw. Again, this stems from the original DM.
First, a Drow? Aren't they very Evil in Golorian...without exception?
Yes, yes they are. Except... he's the exception. *sigh* Again, another relic of the previous DM. New characters who wish to be Drow better have a DAMN good (and quite convincing, long, and entertaining) explanation on why he is one, or better play it like a typical drow. Assuming, of course, that the party would ALLOW a typical drow and not kill it outright.
Second, how'd he get such an awesome bow? Unless the other GM allowed him to get it, you should have control over what is available in the game. Just because someone has the $$ to buy it doesn't mean it exists. So when you finally Sunder this one, another should be very hard to find.
He made the masterwork bow using craft skills. He then took that to two seperate wizards in magnimar, enchanting it to +1, then frost/shock, respectively. I've made it slightly more difficult to do so, so it took him some time to get it enchanted. I'm not going to disallow basic enchantments. The more higher level enchantments or exotic ones, however, are going to be much more harder to get made for anyone in my campaign, since uber wizards selling themselves out for enchantments aren't exactly at every corner store shop along the way. It's not impossible, but they're gonna have to EARN it.
Third, why is he getting to recalculate the XP you give out? I'd be seriously offended if one of my players wanted to "check my math" on a game I was GMing.
We had a very long discussion about this. It was resolved, hopefully.
The game itself:
I've been building up the increasingly rainy weather ever since Magnimar, so it was easy enough to enact the rain weather rules. Inside the Graul house there were only three challenging fights (one of which spilled into the other). Mammy Graul gave them quite a scare, and kept the bard out of line of sight by dropping Black Tentacles in the hall where he was sniping from and moving away. Eventually she even dropped the newly joined Wizard to the party to 0 HP, and killed the Barbarian. Downstairs I was planning on really putting them to the test with Hucker and his three dire rats, with flanking and AoE's on the archer. However, the party really pulled one out of the hat on this one and shut down the entire encounter easily with a nice move. The monk/rogue just stood in the doorway and went full defensive (bringing his AC to 30) and let the bard fire away over his head. Not how I intended things to go, but I gotta give them a good victory for out of the box thinking. I'll make sure they don't make that a habit though...
I'm really looking forward to how they handle the Fort. Current situation seems like they *may* try to bypass it entirely though.
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Ravenot,
Here's a question that I don't think has been asked yet: have you upgraded the mod to the Pathfinder rules, or are you playing them as written? I have found that Pathfinder PCs easily outpower most standard 3.5 encounter, so much so that I generally add at least 1 CR to every encounter just to keep it interesting for them.
I recently ran this mod for a group of 6 players and had similar issues. You don't want to kill them by DM fiat, but you also want it to be a challenge. If you haven't made the upgrade, I would be happy to share some stats with you.
Here's a very simple solution for the big boss fights that I have borrowed from the BadAxe Games' Trailblazer. Simply double the hp of the big boss. Don't change any other stats. This creates a tough encounter that makes the PCs really have to dig deep without making it feel completely overwhelming. After all, the boss is not automatically making all of his attacks or saves, he simply is really, really hard to put down. If the PCs are tearing through the boss, even with double hp, then triple, or even quadruple them.
It's one thing if PCs come up with an intelligent, well thought-out plan that completely takes their oppenents by surprise or bypasses the boss' main defenses. In that case, I say, let them have their 2 or 3 round final boss encounter. But if they just waltz in and expect to lay down so much damage as to instantly defeat everything, they should have another thing coming. Nobody (well, except for certain Ubermunchkins) enjoys a 1 or 2 round big boss fight. It's like a bad ending to a movie. No matter how good the movie was, if the ending is too abrupt, you'll leave the theater with a bad taste in your mouth.
Here's a very simple solution for the big boss fights that I have borrowed from the BadAxe Games' Trailblazer.
Is that worth picking up?
The storefront copywriting has an attitude I don't care for, but the little bit of mechanics they reveal seem well-thought-out. Worth a read?
Here's a very simple solution for the big boss fights that I have borrowed from the BadAxe Games' Trailblazer.Is that worth picking up?
The storefront copywriting has an attitude I don't care for, but the little bit of mechanics they reveal seem well-thought-out. Worth a read?
From the free previews I read, I found some things quite interesting and some things pretty dumb. YMMV, of course.
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Here's a very simple solution for the big boss fights that I have borrowed from the BadAxe Games' Trailblazer.Is that worth picking up?
The storefront copywriting has an attitude I don't care for, but the little bit of mechanics they reveal seem well-thought-out. Worth a read?
I found a few things in it that I have used in my game ever since. I bought the PDF from drivethrurpg for $5. I'd say it's definitely worth a Venti Iced Peppermint White Chocolate Mocha.
Here's my thought, and this mostly applies to the outside encounters. It's always raining around there, isn't rain/water very bad for a bow, especially the bowstring? Even a magical bowstring would be adversly affected by water.
In my campaigns, when it rains, the boys go away (or just get unstrung). The players just know to do that.
A wet bowstring made of natural materials (most if not all natural materials) will stretch and/or break when wet.
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There's some great advice in this thread - but I thought I could add my two cents, since I ran the same module with a paladin archer AND a ranger archer in the party. Not to mention two and half clerics. And two fighters. And a conjurer built to summon small armies.
1. Don't sweat the small encounters. Most of the Grauls and the normal Ogres should be steamrolled by an appropriately leveled party, regardless of builds. Let the party have fun and enjoy their characters.
2. Adjust for party size. If you have more than four players, don't forget to increase encounter difficultly, either by adding additional speedbumps or increasing the hit points on key enemies.
3. Don't forget to adjust the enemies for Pathfinder! Many of the ogrekin and ogres have character levels. Check out www.d20pfsrd.com. There is a pathfinder module section under the bestiary section with updated bad guys for this module. (Shameless plug - it's a great site!).
4. As pointed out by others, use the archery modifiers we often forget about - soft cover (-4), weather effects (a -4 as well I believe).
5. All of the spellcasters in the module should enter combat with at least mage armor, shield, and mirror image active, unless the party completely surprises them.
6. Keep track of arrows! Four arrows a round adds up quickly! One archer was in beg/borrow/scrouge arrows mode near the end of the module. A good assumption is that arrows are destroyed on impact. Doesn't sound like there are many misses!
7. Deadly archer = number one target. The paladin archer pounded Jagraath Kreeg with 100+ pts in one round. Jagraath singled him out, charged, and killed him in one blow. Vital strike + improved critical + large ogre hook + high strength ogre + rage = dead archer. That's 12d6+57 damage in case anyone is curious.
8. Don't forget - have fun!
7. Deadly archer = number one target. The paladin archer pounded Jagraath Kreeg with 100+ pts in one round. Jagraath singled him out, charged, and killed him in one blow. Vital strike + improved critical + large ogre hook + high strength ogre + rage = dead archer. That's 12d6+57 damage in case anyone is curious.
I am struggling with math with this new system (AD&D player here) but my calculations are different from both these and the ones in the PFSRD website.
BAB: +10 hit
large ogre hook: 2d8 base damage (since 1 hd is 1d10 according to AA + 1 size = 2d8 and not 3d6), x3 crit
Strength 30: +10 hit, +15 damage (two handed)
Rage +4 STR: +2 hit, +3 damage (two handed)
+1 magic weapon: +1 hit, +1 damage
bane weapon: +2 hit, +2 damage, +2d6 damage
vital strike: +2d8 damage
improved critical: threat range 19-20
Grand total of raging Jaagrath against a human using vital strike:
+1 human bane large hook +25 (4d8+2d6+21/19-20 x3)
Assuming a critical is scored
8d8+2d6+63
What am I missing?
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I am struggling with math with this new system (AD&D player here) but my calculations are different from both these and the ones in the PFSRD website.BAB: +10 hit
large ogre hook: 2d8 base damage (since 1 hd is 1d10 according to AA + 1 size = 2d8 and not 3d6), x3 crit
Strength 30: +10 hit, +15 damage (two handed)
Rage +4 STR: +2 hit, +3 damage (two handed)
+1 magic weapon: +1 hit, +1 damage
bane weapon: +2 hit, +2 damage, +2d6 damage
vital strike: +2d8 damage
improved critical: threat range 19-20Grand total of raging Jaagrath against a human using vital strike:
+1 human bane large hook +25 (4d8+2d6+21/19-20 x3)
Assuming a critical is scored
8d8+2d6+63What am I missing?
Your math is spot on. The ogre hook as originally presented in the Hook Mountain Massacre was a 1d12 damage weapon when medium size, meaning the large size weapon would be 3d6 base damage. It is also a x3 critical weapon.
So based on the original ogre hook stats, you have:
3d6+19 (base damage)
3d6 extra from vital strike
6d6+38 extra from a critical hit
for a grand total of 12d6+57, or 12d6+2d6+63 if the target was human (which it wasn't.)
Jaagrath's conversion was done before the Adventurer's Armory was released. I'll hit the site and revise. Thanks for the catch!
Last night we faced Jaagrath Kreeg who hit our tank 116 hp in one hit almost instakilled then I took 49 two characters down in on turn!Just prior to that our rouge was insta killed by one of the other mid level Ogres.
Holy wow. Not directly following the OP, but my group is starting our fort assault at the beginning of our next session. The sheer number of ogres was already concerning, and now there's this damage output? I am very worried about a TPK here. My character is the only one somewhat min-maxed, and even then I made some sacrifice because at the beginning our party had no healing/support capabilities - going warpriest-sacred fist instead of monk. My compatriots are not optimized for combat at all - a rogue/cleric (only taken last level), a fighter/cavalier/cleric (again, only taken last level thus rendering my choice to go warpriest fairly moot), and a sorcerer built for debuffing.
We have never hit triple digit damage in a round ever. My character is built for AC/saves, with the DM replying with a strangely high number of crits against me. We're also on Roll20, which seems to hate letting our attack rolls hit. If we get 15 damage on our turn, we consider ourselves lucky. I do not see this going well.
Just stepping in to give our approval of the thread Necromancy!