An alternative Turn Undead

[dm4hire]

Another foray into alternative rules, this time a look at Turn Undead. I’m hoping this has a little more going for it than my Sneak Attack rules. Anyway here’s my thought about Turn Undead, which might not be a new idea as I don’t always follow the homebrew stuff.

I decided to model Turn Undead after Combat Maneuvers but wasn’t sure how to work it out until the epiphany stuck. The cleric’s Turn Bonus (TB), determined using (½ Level + Cha Mod), is rolled against the undead opponent’s Turn Defense (TD). Turn Defense is determined by using the formula (10 + ½ Wis score + Cha Mod + Turn Defense Resistance (TDR) (if applicable). If the TB beats the TD the undead is turned, fleeing away from the cleric for a number of rounds equal to 1 + ½ level + Wis modifier with a minimum of one round. If the Turn check exceeds the TD by more than five the cleric also deals damage equal to (½ level)d6 in holy damage, minimum 1d6. If the Turn check exceeds the TD by more than 10 the undead is destroyed if it fails a Will save equal to 10+(½ level)+Wis mod of the cleric.

For now I’ll use Channel Resistance in place of TDR

Recap before demonstration:

Turn Bonus = ½ Level + Cha Mod
Turn Defense = 10 + ½ Wis score + Cha Mod + Turn Defense Resistance (TDR) (if applicable)

So a first level cleric with a Wis of 18 and a Cha of 16 would have a TB of 3.
A fourth level cleric with a Wis 19 and a Cha of 16 would have a TB of 5
A fifteenth level cleric with a Wis 20 and a Cha 16 would have a TB of 10

A ghast has a TD of (10 + 9 half wisdom + 4 Cha mod + 2 TDR)= 25
A ghost has a TD of (10 + 5 half wisdom + 5 Cha mod + 4 TDR)= 24
A ghoul has a TD of (10 + 7 half wisdom + 2 Cha mod + 2 TDR) = 21
A skeleton has a TD of (10 + 5 half wisdom + 0 Cha mod + 0 TDR)= 15
A bloody skeleton has a TD of (10 + 5 half wisdom + 2 Cha mod + 4 TDR)= 21
A zombie has a TD of (10 + 5 half wisdom + 0 Cha mod + 0 TDR)= 15
A lich has a TD of (10 + 7 half wisdom + 3 Cha mod + 4 TDR)= 24

I started to get a little worried that my math wasn’t working out since the more powerful monsters still seem to have a low TD, as shown above for the ghost and lich while the ghast has a pretty high score for such a low level monster. I was contemplating switching to a hit dice based modifier in place of the Cha modifier, but then I realized that ghosts and liches would probably be in environments that offer other resistance bonuses to balance for the low numbers on higher monsters. As for the ghast, well some monsters should be tough if you think about it, but an alternative solution would be to make a roll of 20 an auto turn undead. It’s not really overpowering if you think about it and would still require them to meet the other requirements.

TB should also be modifiable by feats, which would add some flavor for turning. As for outsiders I’m still thinking about it, but just to put it in perspective a pit fiend would have a TD of 33 before adding any kind of bonus resistances for environment.

So thoughts? Is this a little more on target?

[stringburka]

dm4hire wrote:

(10 + ½ Wis score + Cha Mod + Turn Defense Resistance (TDR) (if applicable).

This is easier to describe as 15 + Wis + Cha + TDR.

I don't really like this system as the TB scales with levels but the TD doesn't. This is a large difference from CMB/CMD. It also seem to overly complicate things. I'd probably use something based on the Will save, as that's an established mechanic and it scales pretty well. DC 10 + 1/2 level + Cha maybe.

[dm4hire]

stringburka wrote:

I don't really like this system as the TB scales with levels but the TD doesn't. This is a large difference from CMB/CMD. It also seem to overly complicate things. I'd probably use something based on the Will save, as that's an established mechanic and it scales pretty well. DC 10 + 1/2 level + Cha maybe.

Hm, you have a point. My intention of doing the half wisdom though was to make the DC to overcome more static since the more powerful monsters tend to have higher wisdom scores. However basing off of saves works, especially Cha vs Will. I prefer it to be a target number though so that the cleric gains the ability to do more than just turn the undead where a save tends to be all or nothing. Still your approach would be simplier if it becomes a straight Cha + 1/2 level check vs DC= 15 + Will + Resist, with certain mobs gaining the ability to add their Cha in.

[stuart haffenden]

As a matter of interest [following my personal take that if it aint broke, don't fix it] what's your problem with the current system? or the 3.5 system?

[Rhubarb]

went to look up the turning undead rules in pathfinder to see what exactly we are talking about as i have not played a cleric yet, and turn undead is not in the index, anyways i would like to see each monster have a turn number, to which a cleric can roll d20 plus wis mod plus cleric level. feats can add to the roll. multiple targets would each have to be rolled but it would only count as 1 turning if all done in the same round and all are within the cleric's range. i do like the cmb/cmd idea though and might also explore that route

[dm4hire]

stuart haffenden wrote:

As a matter of interest [following my personal take that if it aint broke, don't fix it] what's your problem with the current system? or the 3.5 system?

Channel energy is ok, I currently play clerics in PF, but the turn aspect is nowhere near what it use to be. This alternative is just something to bring back the old style turning.

[stuart haffenden]

If it works for you and your group, go with it. However I think it was changed for a reason, and I like the new feel but I may be in a minority!