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I have quickly become a fan of Paizo’s subscription model for Pathfinder, but I am concerned about the negative effects it could have on sales of PFRPG products at my local game store. I have been brewing on this subject for a few weeks now, trying to come up with a possible solution that would serve to benefit both the publisher and the retailer.
The advantages of making our purchases online (might) include 20-30% discounts, free pdf files and instant access to titles as soon as they are posted for purchase. The only disadvantage I can see is the cost of shipping. In my purchase history, the discounts almost always exceeded the shipping costs.
So where does this leave Joe ‘gamestore’ Owner? What encouragement does he receive to support the Pathfinder line or welcome Society play into his store?
This is a serious conflict for me! I am a huge supported of the company/system and I want the benefits of subscription! I am also witnessing an economy that has been killing the small game store entity for several years. I am fortunate enough to have an outstanding local game store. I want to support the store and promote his business (which includes over 50% of his entire RPG section dedicated to PFRPG).
In the short term, I decided to come up with a solution that would satisfy my need to support both sides of this equation. I would subscribe to Companion and Adventure Path, while purchasing my core rule books and Chronicles from my local. This was working for a short time, but suddenly I realized that my ratio of printed to digital was tipping the scales away from the digital side. This was also largely due to the fact that I was impulse buying lots of books off his shelves to fill in gaps in my collection.
Then the idea came to me.
When I purchase a PFRPG product from a (participating) game store, it should also include a disc of the digital (provided by store), the means to transfer it onto my usb stick or (preferably) a system to verify said purchase and allow me to download it from a retailer’s portal. This would allow you (Paizo) to maintain the scrutiny of watermarking and counting digital products, as well as giving credit (in the form of bonuses and/or discounts) to retailers that support the IP. Of course a better achievement, in my humble opinion, would be to have full integration of the above with my account here, making a second portal unnecessary.
In closing, I’d like to convey to you my good reader that I am in no way associated with any business that makes its living selling games. I want to see all aspects of the industry thrive. Paizo (and PFRPG) have given an old gamer hope for an otherwise bleak future for my beloved Dungeons and Dragons!
Thank you in advance for your thoughts!
Chief Technical Officer
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When I purchase a PFRPG product from a (participating) game store, it should also include a disc of the digital (provided by store), the means to transfer it onto my usb stick or (preferably) a system to verify said purchase and allow me to download it from a retailer’s portal. This would allow you (Paizo) to maintain the scrutiny of watermarking and counting digital products, as well as giving credit (in the form of bonuses and/or discounts) to retailers that support the IP.
Please note that even people who buy single products from paizo.com do not get free PDFs—that's purely a subscriber benefit.
However, without going into specific points on implementation, I can assure you that we do regularly consider the questions you raise, and we have some items on our to-do list that will move us further in the direction you indicate.
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Bottom line, it does undermine FLGS. Just like Amazon does.
It allows you to own Pathfinder products without a place to find other like minded people.
It allows you to drive by vacant buildings where Pathfinder Society games could have been played.
It allows you to wonder why nobody has tried to start a FLGS in town.
However, some things are worth fighting for and supporting. You can help FLGS in other ways. The biggest one is buying other products that keep them in business. FLGS need financial support and I think it takes maturity by those that love the hobby to realize this. They not only foster a positive environment but they provide a beacon of hope for those of us that love the hobby more than money. Make it your duty to see that your FLGS thrives.
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However, without going into specific points on implementation, I can assure you that we do regularly consider the questions you raise, and we have some items on our to-do list that will move us further in the direction you indicate.
Let us hope this reaches your "done" list. Give FLGS exclusive content not purchaseable by customers through Paizo. That would be a good start.
However, some things are worth fighting for and supporting. You can help FLGS in other ways. The biggest one is buying other products that keep them in business. FLGS need financial support and I think it takes maturity by those that love the hobby to realize this. They not only foster a positive environment but they provide a beacon of hope for those of us that love the hobby more than money. Make it your duty to see that your FLGS thrives.
All of this is true, but it's unlikely Azmyth's FLGS was going to sink or swim on the basis of the Pathifinder sales alone. I think Azmyth was looking for a way to give the store some benefit and incentive to be an actively engaged Pathfinder retailer; his purchase of unrelated products doesn't do that.
Bottom line, it does undermine FLGS. Just like Amazon does.
It allows you to own Pathfinder products without a place to find other like minded people.
It allows you to drive by vacant buildings where Pathfinder Society games could have been played.
It allows you to wonder why nobody has tried to start a FLGS in town.
However, some things are worth fighting for and supporting. You can help FLGS in other ways. The biggest one is buying other products that keep them in business. FLGS need financial support and I think it takes maturity by those that love the hobby to realize this. They not only foster a positive environment but they provide a beacon of hope for those of us that love the hobby more than money. Make it your duty to see that your FLGS thrives.
At the same time however people like myself have to drive 50+miles to the nearest gamestore. Buying product from Paizo direct is my gaming groups only viable method of getting the gaming stuff we want.
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CEO
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Give FLGS exclusive content not purchaseable by customers through Paizo. That would be a good start.
We would never do that, because there are way too many Paizo customers who don't have a FLGS near them. I've seen estimates of 60% or more of RPG customers who don't have a game store within a 30 minute drive of their house. It wouldn't be fair to penalize them for not having a local FLGS and not being able to buy an exclusive product. There isn't a retail product that I can think of that hasn't been available through the FLGS in Paizo's history in one form or another. Anything we create will be available to all channels. We don't want to screw anybody because they have a certain preference in how they receive their Paizo product.
-Lisa
Give FLGS exclusive content not purchaseable by customers through Paizo. That would be a good start.We would never do that, because there are way too many Paizo customers who don't have a FLGS near them. I've seen estimates of 60% or more of RPG customers who don't have a game store within a 30 minute drive of their house. It wouldn't be fair to penalize them for not having a local FLGS and not being able to buy an exclusive product. There isn't a retail product that I can think of that hasn't been available through the FLGS in Paizo's history in one form or another. Anything we create will be available to all channels. We don't want to screw anybody because they have a certain preference in how they receive their Paizo product.
-Lisa
I think stuff like the Free RPG day material is the best way to support local stores. Things you can buy on the website but are promo giveaways at local stores helps to encourage people to visit retail locations.
I know I drove more than 30 minutes to get to a store participating in Free RPG day. There are several stores closer to me, but none participated last year. Hopefully more will participate this year.
Running a Pathfinder game at a store would also help, I think. It would generate interest which would (hopefully) turn into sales for the store.
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Chief Technical Officer
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You can purchase calling cards (long and short distance) and a variety of gift cards that are activated at time of purchase. Would it be possible to do something similar with store-based .pdf purchases? Either to allow a download at a later time, or to be downloaded on the spot in the store onto a variety of media (USB thumb drives, burned to CD, uploaded to smartphone etc.)
We have plans for methods to engage retailers with PDF sales, but we're really not ready to go into details. It'll take a while to build the necessary infrastructure.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Paizo could limit or eliminate online sales of older items while still allowing FLGS to purchase and sell them in house.
For example, for the first 3 months after a product is released it would be available online at Paizo.com and the FLGS, after 3 months you could only purchase that item in a FLGS.
The time frame could be adjusted (3 months, 6 months 1 year, whatever) but the concept I think would work well. If you want the product early then get it on Paizo.com during the initial "release period", after that you have to find it or order it from a FLGS.
That would actually be suicide for us. Most products sell most of their volume in the first few months, so most retailers have a strong front-list focus. Many retailers don't even consider restocking older products, figuring that if they've sold out of something, they're lucky to have done so. Thus, reordering older products without specific customer requests is often seen as a risk to be avoided.
Indeed, the fact that paizo.com is often the only place to readily get older products is a direct result of retailer habits and preferences.
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We would never do that, because there are way too many Paizo customers who don't have a FLGS near them. I've seen estimates of 60% or more of RPG customers who don't have a game store within a 30 minute drive of their house. It wouldn't be fair to penalize them for not having a local FLGS and not being able to buy an exclusive product. There isn't a retail product that I can think of that hasn't been available through the FLGS in Paizo's history in one form or another. Anything we create will be available to all channels. We don't want to screw anybody because they have a certain preference in how they receive their Paizo product.
-Lisa
No way will I debate the thumb. What makes Paizo successful in more ways than one is the Dark drinking queen.
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It wouldn't be fair to penalize them for not having a local FLGS and not being able to buy an exclusive product.
-Lisa
I did feel this sting when I lived in Homedale Idaho and Nampa's "Team Dewey Toys & Hobbies " got exclusive Star Wars promo minis (different painted sculps), maps, and tokens. I guess I am willing to see past that now since I am near a FLGS. Feels like some kind of hypocrisy I am asking for.
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I would say the best way to support the local stores is with the pathfinder Society. For fans it would be running games at the local shops and for paizo maybe figuring out a way to encourage fans and stores to take part. Maybe offer to sell stores a Pathfinder Society box, with some ad stuff and a few free give aways for those that take part each month.
Running a Pathfinder game at a store would also help, I think. It would generate interest which would (hopefully) turn into sales for the store.
Last time I went to Wizard's Asylum in Tulsa they were only running D&D 4th edition but they had a ton of Pathfinder available. It was funny getting the evil eye from the ones playing in the store as my friends and I left with nearly $400 in Pathfinder merch. The store owner laughed all the way to the bank. Since I run games with two different groups I now have well over 15 Pathfinder fans in a small town where table top gaming is rare.
I would say the best way to support the local stores is with the pathfinder Society. For fans it would be running games at the local shops and for paizo maybe figuring out a way to encourage fans and stores to take part. Maybe offer to sell stores a Pathfinder Society box, with some ad stuff and a few free give aways for those that take part each month.
If getting the two groups I game with to commit to a time and single campaign (It is like trying to herd kittens for me)I would love to set a Pathfinder Society here in Independence Kansas. The problem would be trying to find room for 6 to 15 regular players, the thought of trying to run a game that big kinda intimidates me lol.
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So where does this leave Joe ‘gamestore’ Owner? What encouragement does he receive to support the Pathfinder line or welcome Society play into his store?
A lot of this is up to the shop owner.
You are a completist so you want every little product. For folks who don't want everything buying local is better because you don't have to deal with shipping.
Paizo does do one thing which IMO is amazing for local shops and that is PFS. I know you run a game at your local shop and that likely brings a ton of business in for them. Players often don't buy enough to justify a subscription but all the PFSers I've seen have at least 3-4+ companions, Seeker of Secrets is required. Some players subscribe to the rules but many don't and they are more likely to buy local where they don't have to pay shipping. Players also pick up minis, dice, dice bags, dice towers, sodas, snacks, etc.
IMO one of the best things Paizo could do to help local game shops is to keep investing in organized play and possibly offer some perks to shops that run OP games.
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I would say the best way to support the local stores is with the pathfinder Society. For fans it would be running games at the local shops and for paizo maybe figuring out a way to encourage fans and stores to take part. Maybe offer to sell stores a Pathfinder Society box, with some ad stuff and a few free give aways for those that take part each month.If getting the two groups I game with to commit to a time and single campaign (It is like trying to herd kittens for me)I would love to set a Pathfinder Society here in Independence Kansas. The problem would be trying to find room for 6 to 15 regular players, the thought of trying to run a game that big kinda intimidates me lol.
Maybe you can run a one off game. Say once a month at the local store. Have a few of your players show and have some premade characters ready. invite others to watch or join in. Just run the PFS adventures they have. As you get it going if your friends can't commit then they can drop out and let new people fill their spots. Or better get some of them to come with you and run their own PFS games on the same night. That is if you get enough people to show up monthly to try it out.
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I think it's of value to look at the way the products are involved in purchasing habits as well.
I am a subscriber to the godawful number of lines I am simply because while I like having dead tree copies of my books for curling up on the couch and reading, I prefer PDF copies for setting up my game. Being a subscriber gets me both for the same price (and the adventure path subscription covers shipping). The game store (at this time) has no way to provide that service. I do though get copies of the products that irritate me (the AP Map Books in particular come to mind), but that irritation doesn't cover the cost advantage I'm able to maintain by getting my books easily in both formats.
This bothers me, just as it does many of the other posters here, because I don't get to support my two favorite FLGS (The Source, and Dreamers) and draw more attention to the game.
To facilitate that aspect though, I do not subscribe to ANY of the lines which do not need PDF support. Things like map packs, flip mats, and item cards are what I purchase at my FLGS. The problem with this is that the products I buy are system neutral, they do not support the idea that I'm a Pathfinder player, not a Tunnels and Trolls Player or D&D player. They are also the game products that I buy the least of. This is why I also supplement those purchases with module purchases, and gift purchases when I buy somebody books that are part of the core ruleset.
In my opinion this is one of the aspects of product sales that needs to be reviewed. While it's easy for somebody to support their Paizo habit at their FLGS, if they're like me and like having dual copies, the products their buying aren't really "Pathfinder" products. I know Society Play helps support this, and believe me, I'm trying to get a local game going at The Source, but besides myself, I know several players that feel "dirty" buying from Paizo because the offer is so much better than anything the FLGS can offer, Pathfinder Society or no.
However, without going into specific points on implementation, I can assure you that we do regularly consider the questions you raise, and we have some items on our to-do list that will move us further in the direction you indicate.Let us hope this reaches your "done" list. Give FLGS exclusive content not purchaseable by customers through Paizo. That would be a good start.
I'd cancel my subscriptions as soon as I heard about it.
And not to go find a decent FLGS to buy my stuff from. I just don't have that sort of time.
I think there is a way you can support both Paizo's direct sales service (which is still better than, say, supporting Amazon, in terms of helping the smaller companies) and your FLGS.
If you subscribe to something in part for the free .pdf, then do it. (That's why I'm a PFRPG subscriber) It's a reasonable benefit, and FLGSes can't give you .pdfs. They know that.
AT THE SAME TIME:
If you don't want the free .pdf (not everyone uses them), there's a chance shipping is canceling or reducing your discount anyway. If that's the case, absolutely order through your FLGS instead. And it is especially the case with the Game Mastery products--I used to subscribe to the maps and realized I was actually losing money because my discount was $2 and the cost of shipping was $4. The tradeoff of getting it instantly wasn't worth it (and you don't get any digital files), so I buy my Game Mastery products from my FLGS while I get my PFRG rulebooks from Paizo for the time being.
Note: Ask your FLGS store owner about discounts: A friend of mine loved the subscription idea, but wanted to support his brick and mortar store up the street. So he went to the brick and mortar store and said, "If I pre-order every book from this line, can you give me 20% off?"
The FLGS store owner in this case happily agreed to it for the guarantee of a pre-order (and knew the customer was loyal and brought in other business). AND now my friend pays no shipping, so he really is actually getting a 20% discount. He doesn't use .pdfs so he doesn't care about that.
Not all FLGS store owners can do this, but it can't hurt to ask.
OTHER THINGS YOU CAN DO TO HELP YOUR FLGS:
- Offer to run demos of Pathfinder at your store: I know I've helped my FLGS sell a couple core rulebooks that way. People sit down, play, get excited, and decide to buy the book right there rather than shop online.
- As mentioned above--so maybe you subscribe to certain products. You can still order and buy other Paizo products at the store.
- Encourage your FLGS to participate in Free RPG day. It does cost them some money--but the idea is it brings people to the store. And this is one of the ways going to your brick and mortar DOES give you a benefit over ordering online: Notice how Master of the Fallen Fortress is $5.00 for the print edition? - I got it for free at my FLGS because they had them for Free RPG day. Free RPG day gets folks a lot of swag they won't get elsewhere, and it's a great excuse to gather people together for a quick game.
Just some thoughts.
Silver Crescent Publishing
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Maybe you can run a one off game. Say once a month at the local store. Have a few of your players show and have some premade characters ready. invite others to watch or join in.
I'm actually going to be doing this very soon at a local game store in Evansville, IN to show of the Realms of Twilight Campaign Setting. It it was recommended as good advertising for me, then I have no doubt Pathfinder would have similar or greater success (especially with PFS being so pro-game).
Unfortunately, the only FLGS in my area is hardcore devoted to 4e despite my attempts to order through them and bring in non-4e business. Their loss.
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Chief Technical Officer
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However, without going into specific points on implementation, I can assure you that we do regularly consider the questions you raise, and we have some items on our to-do list that will move us further in the direction you indicate.Let us hope this reaches your "done" list. Give FLGS exclusive content not purchaseable by customers through Paizo. That would be a good start.I'd cancel my subscriptions as soon as I heard about it.
And not to go find a decent FLGS to buy my stuff from. I just don't have that sort of time.
Don't worry—FLGS exclusive content, as Lisa mentioned above, is *not* something we ever want to do. (You'll note that we always make our Free RPG Day Modules available here shortly after Free RPG Day every year.)
Maybe you can run a one off game. Say once a month at the local store. Have a few of your players show and have some premade characters ready. invite others to watch or join in. Just run the PFS adventures they have. As you get it going if your friends can't commit then they can drop out and let new people fill their spots. Or better get some of them to come with you and run their own PFS games on the same night. That is if you get enough people to show up monthly to try it out.I would say the best way to support the local stores is with the pathfinder Society. For fans it would be running games at the local shops and for paizo maybe figuring out a way to encourage fans and stores to take part. Maybe offer to sell stores a Pathfinder Society box, with some ad stuff and a few free give aways for those that take part each month.If getting the two groups I game with to commit to a time and single campaign (It is like trying to herd kittens for me)I would love to set a Pathfinder Society here in Independence Kansas. The problem would be trying to find room for 6 to 15 regular players, the thought of trying to run a game that big kinda intimidates me lol.
The closest local store is 50 miles and in another state, if I were to do it it would have to be in either a home or local motel. I'd love it if someone would open a store here but until things get better job and money wise it will not be for a while. Until then I can buy some of the Pathfinder Society Adventures and run them I also have the one shot intro dungeon that has the new Iconics in it so I can get interest in it from there.
Don't worry
I don't. I just thought I'd state my opinion to show the OP what could happen if you guys did do that.
It was not meant to be threat or something (and it's pure coincidence that I carry a club ;-))
Many interesting ideas
I love having physical copies, this in part is why during highschool I messed up my back being the only person in my gaming group that could really afford 3.5 books, and the one willing to GM, I then had to use PDF files when I had to carry them using my laptop, during my time at university I have begun to carry around more physical copies again, I prescribe to Paizo because I want the PDF files as well, while I am mostly picking up the rules books (I have this unseemly habit of designing my own worlds and adventures) Still I run games when I can at my local stores, 4 of them within a 30-45min drive, due to proximity to Denver, and while on campus 2 stores one within walking distance. Almost all of my stores have taken to pathfinder which I am proud of, while still offering 4th edition, (I have nothing against 4e, I just was never all that fond of miniatures games) So I guess I am very lucky, but as a business major I have to agree giving them exclusives is not a great idea for the target market, now then having groups run games there is the best thing we can make available for many of these places, we can bring in a reasonable amount in snacks alone, not to mention dice, and who knows when you will need some tiles and what not depending on your play style, also with my players, some of them still don't buy their own books, but others see the books i have say oh that is cool goes over to the shelf buys another one, actually one of my old groups bought up a core book per player when they switched to pathfinder.
Either way I have been happy with the product but the only way to truly help your brick and mortar store and subscirbe or buy from Paizo, is to either buy some books from Paizo, and others from the stores (only about 10 bucks a core book pdf) or gaming at the stores bringing in business if you are running pathfinder and bringing in customers they will know who they owe this flux of consumers to.