RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Kenderkin,
There are real reasons that a +3 amulet of natural armor and a +3 ring of protection are not as good as a +5 ring of protection. Two of the most obvious: the amulet takes up a magic item slot, and the amulet doesn't stack with a spell providing natural armor.
(That's the major mechanical drawback to 0gre's +21 AC ring of cheese: almost no other AC improvement stacks with it. A wearer donning armor and receiving a morale bonus to her AC is losing chunks of the ring of cheese's powers.)
So I think it's reasonable that a character might clog up her item slots with a bunch of different items, each providing a small magical bonus to her armor class. Two rings? I'm fine with that. But combining all those into one item (or into slotless items, like ioun stones should get pretty expensive, pretty quickly.
The costs of a ring of protection +6 regardless of what it is called or how you get there(if the DM allows it!).
Should not be
the costs of 5 different +1's which is 5,000 GP
Your math is incorrect. You are not even paying attention to the guidelines.
AC bonus (other)1 Bonus squared x 2,500 gp Ioun stone (dusty rose prism)
1 Such as a luck, insight, sacred, or profane bonus.
Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that take up a space on a character's body, each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.
ring of protection: 2000 base +1000
ring of luck: 2500 base +1250ring of sacred: 2500 base +1250
ring of dodge: 2500 base
ring of natural armor: 2000 base +1000
So a +5 ring, using a bunch of +1s, would cost 16000
But would be subject to lose some ac where armor and dodge would not be effective.
This is actually not as OP as one would do. If they were trying to be OP, they would try and combine these effects with other items that uses the same spells to make. Like combining dodge with another item made with hate, so they could get a discount. So putting all of these effects on the same item is not preferred by one going OP. So the problem here, if there is one, is the application of the different types of AC bonuses in items. If you allow it, you might need to watch out of people specializing on AC and not allow them to find bonuses of all the different types till they raise in level in a little. But even then they are losing out on other aspects of items they should buy, so this can be taken advantage of.
you can tack both powers on the same ring, for 45,000 gold. they are 2 seperate +3 bonuses. not a lone +6.
I was under the impression that 3 + 3 = 6.
Wouldn't two +3 enchantments be the equivalent of a +6 enchantment?That's the way it works for weapons and AC.
Are the rules different for rings?
you can tack both powers on the same ring, for 45,000 gold. they are 2 seperate +3 bonuses. not a lone +6.I was under the impression that 3 + 3 = 6.
Wouldn't two +3 enchantments be the equivalent of a +6 enchantment?
That's the way it works for weapons and AC.
Are the rules different for rings?
It's what the two pluses are.
For example, a +3 Natural Armor bonus is not the same as a +3 Deflection Bonus.
So, a +3/+3 ring of naturally deflecting armor would give you +6 to AC (assuming you weren't also wearing a +4 amulet of natural armor). But, it doesn't give you a +6 Armor Enhancement bonus.
The ability to stack different bonus types (and I generally limit it to Deflection, Luck, Dodge, Shield, Profane and Sacred myself, with Profane and Sacred not allowed on the same object) isn't really all that over powered. It's more expensive than buying 3 or 5 different objects that do the same thing, but cheaper than buying slotless items that do the same thing. Which is reasonable.
What no-one seems to consider when they spout off about 'A +3/+3 should cost the same as a +6' is that a +3 slotless item is expensive, but that two +3 slotless items are NOT anywhere near as expensive as a +6 would be.
Therefore, a stacked +3/+3 slotted item should be between the cost of two +3 slotted items and two +3 slotless items. And only an idiot would stack two slotless items into one slotless item. :)
you can tack both powers on the same ring, for 45,000 gold. they are 2 seperate +3 bonuses. not a lone +6.I was under the impression that 3 + 3 = 6.
Wouldn't two +3 enchantments be the equivalent of a +6 enchantment?
That's the way it works for weapons and AC.
Are the rules different for rings?
See, that is the big problem here. I was sure there was a rule in print, standard not epic, somewhere that stated that the max TOTAL bonus for all magic items was +5, not just for armor and weapons, but I can't find it. Of course, specific items like the ring of protection and amulet of natural armor say they have a range of +1 to +5, which to me means a max of +5 no matter what type of bonuses you are using when crafting them.
Edit:
And just for the hell of it for those talking prices, the price for an Epic Ring of Protection +6 is 720,000 gp, requires the Forge Epic Ring feat, but only requires the creator to be 18th level. So if you allow people to take the Epic feats in a non-epic level game, then some things are possible.
PF srd
Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren't enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point.
The only questionable bonus listed is the dodge, everything else was directly address in the guidelines, and I did say guidelines, not rules. Also it is up to the GM to decide when they get access to some of these weirder AC types. I would say dodge is with 2500xbonusxbonus because it is not as good as deflection, but better than natural armor.
You can buy a +5 deflection ring and a +5 Natural armor amulet by RAW. No custom magic item crafting, just the listed items in the book. Is there anyone willing to argue that stacking those two should cost you a +10 equivalent?
This thread has veered straight into mindboggling.
The only questionable bonus listed is the dodge, everything else was directly address in the guidelines, and I did say guidelines, not rules. Also it is up to the GM to decide when they get access to some of these weirder AC types. I would say dodge is with 2500xbonusxbonus because it is not as good as deflection, but better than natural armor.PF srd
Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren't enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point.
And all I said is the value of a +6 ring is more than the value of a +5 ring and how you get there doesn't really matter.
In other words we go by "actual worth" of the item and ignore the formulas that result in wonkiness.....
You can buy a +5 deflection ring and a +5 Natural armor amulet by RAW. No custom magic item crafting, just the listed items in the book. Is there anyone willing to argue that stacking those two should cost you a +10 equivalent?
This thread has veered straight into mindboggling.
And all I said is the value of a +6 ring is more than the value of a +5 ring and how you get there doesn't really matter.In other words we go by "actual worth" of the item and ignore the formulas that result in wonkiness.....
That's the problem, what you're saying is that +3/+3 stacked ring equal in value to a +6 ring. But it isn't.
I can demonstrate that. I did demonstrate that.
Two +3 slotless bonus items cost LESS than a +6 ring. Significantly less (since a +6 ring would be 720,000), and those are very well within guidelines (and Ioun stones give good examples). Two +3 Ioun stones would not cost you 720,000 gp.
Your argument, is, therefore mooted.
Sarandosil had an excellent point two, with his example of the +5 Amulet and +5 ring being stacked in one item. Your logic would make that a +10 item costing several million dollars, when you could, much much cheaper, have the two items made slotless for a LOT less.
I'll reiterate my point above. Costs should be reasonable in relation to other costs already in the system.
The costs of stacking bonuses of different types are given in the rules, and examples exist (belts and headbands for example).
The cost of buying items in individual slots is the base cost and cheapest.
The cost of buying items stacked into one slot should be about halfway between the cost of individual items in different slots, and the cost of buying the same item slotless.
The cost of buying an item slotless should be the most expensive option, which it is.
This is how the rules are set up already.
Creative Director
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In 3.5, rings or cloaks or weapons or armor or whatever that provide a +6 or higher bonus are considered "epic." They're INCREDIBLY expensive (millions of gp in some cases) and aren't really intended to be used by characters who are 20th level or lower.
We haven't actually said much at all about how epic rules work in Pathfinder RPG (aside from pointing out that the 3.5 rules still work if you like them), but as far as official products and the rules themselves go, +5 is the limit for magic items like rings of protection or armor. (Yes, I'm aware that there are higher limits on some things, like bracers of armor; those are different items and their own limits are their own.)
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A bit of clarification:
+3/+3 ring is equal in value in that it is equal in total bonus to your ac as a +6 ring.
The whole pricing thing is about finding a price that puts it on par with similar items, not just using the formulas to try to create the cheapest, biggest total bonuses you can. As evidenced by the first section which talks about how the prices are guidelines only and should be matched with similar items already in the book.
Personally, I think it should be a bit less expensive than a standard +6 ring, because you're limiting the other items you can use for bonuses. However, I think it should still be on the upper end of the +6 ring cost.
So can we use some real examples and determine the costs that seem the most appropriate
How about a +4 natural armor /+ 3 deflection ring?Also not to be snarky but ioun stones don't do any of those things and max out at +2....so your point is moot.....
That's actually pretty snarky for someone trying not to be snarky, but ok, I'll roll with it.
The fact that Ioun stones max out at +2 has nothing to do with the question. The underlying question is if +N bonus A stacked with +M bonus B should cost as much as +(N+M) bonus A by itself.
So,
Let's look at Ioun stones and bonuses.
Ioun Stone (+2) to STR : 8,000
Ioun Stone (+2) to DEX : 8,000
Ioun Stone (+2) to CON : 8,000
Total : 24,000
Belt of Physical Perfection : (+2 all physical stats) 8,000
Now, why are 3 slotless Ioun stones the same as the slotted belt? Per the rules, they should be more expensive...
But they aren't slotless, they orbit around the head and can be taken away with a AC 24 attack. So, they get a discount. Note however, that in both situations the +2 to 3 different things didn't cost as much as a +6 to one thing (18,000gp).
Now, let's examine the rules for bonus items :
AC bonus (deflection) : Bonus squared x 2,000 gp
AC bonus (other)1 : Bonus squared x 2,500 gp
Natural armor bonus (enhancement): Bonus squared x 2,000 gp1 Such as a luck, insight, sacred, or profane bonus.
An item that does not take up one of the spaces on a body costs double.Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that take up a space on a character's body, each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.
So, let's look at the 3 setups using +2's each (since you objected to using #'s greater than +2 earlier).
Single Slotted Items
+2 Ring of Protection (+2 Deflection Bonus) : 8,000
+2 Amulet of Natural Armor (+2 Natural Armor Bonus) : 8,000
Total Cost : 16,000
Total AC Bonus : +4
Stacked Item
+2 Ring of Protective Natural Armor (+2 Deflection/Natural Armor)
8,000
8,000 * 1.5 = 12,000
Total Cost : 20,000gp
Total AC Bonus : +4
Slotless Item
+2 Tattoo of the Turtle (+2 Natural Armor Bonus) 16,000
+2 Tattoo of Protection (+2 Deflection Bonus) 16,000
All costs are Double for slotless items.
Total Cost : 32,000gp
Price for a Ring of Protection +4 : 32,000gp
Now, in no way is the second item (Stacked Item Ring) equal to the Ring of Protection +4 (it negates the use of spells that increase natural armor, negates use of amulet of natural armor, etc).
The Ring +4 is equal to the slotless +2's because the ring's allowance of the use of Amulet of Natural Armor to further boost ac is balanced by the two tattoo's not taking up body slots.
Your argument is that the +2/+2 ring above is equal to the +4 ring and should cost the same. My response to that is, I'll take the slotless items if that is your stance, since they cost the same and don't take up slots.
You know someone was reading the RAW and said hey I can make a +5 ring for 5,000 "according to the rules".
Power gamers WTF are you going to do????
Yes, you can, by the rules. Again though, it's pointless to do so other than as an oddity. Someone at 5th level will be 'Woah! Cool!' and someone at 15th level will be 'WTF? That is freaking useless!'.
And, it's not 5000. It would be 16,000 to be exact. 2,500 + 3,000 + 3,000 + 3,750 + 3,750 = 16,000
Give any 5th level character a 16,000gp item and they will be 'Woah! Cool!'. :)
In 3.5, rings or cloaks or weapons or armor or whatever that provide a +6 or higher bonus are considered "epic." They're INCREDIBLY expensive (millions of gp in some cases) and aren't really intended to be used by characters who are 20th level or lower.
We haven't actually said much at all about how epic rules work in Pathfinder RPG (aside from pointing out that the 3.5 rules still work if you like them), but as far as official products and the rules themselves go, +5 is the limit for magic items like rings of protection or armor. (Yes, I'm aware that there are higher limits on some things, like bracers of armor; those are different items and their own limits are their own.)
Heh, well at least the OP got his answer, even though we derailed the thread something massive.
Heh, well at least the OP got his answer, even though we derailed the thread something massive.In 3.5, rings or cloaks or weapons or armor or whatever that provide a +6 or higher bonus are considered "epic." They're INCREDIBLY expensive (millions of gp in some cases) and aren't really intended to be used by characters who are 20th level or lower.
We haven't actually said much at all about how epic rules work in Pathfinder RPG (aside from pointing out that the 3.5 rules still work if you like them), but as far as official products and the rules themselves go, +5 is the limit for magic items like rings of protection or armor. (Yes, I'm aware that there are higher limits on some things, like bracers of armor; those are different items and their own limits are their own.)
LOL,
Hopefully they'll put that in the Errata though.
Why do all the math? I said it should cost close to the cost of a +4 ring since it is a +4 ring.
The fact is that it can be made at a lower level and will cost a bit less.
And if a PC is going to make it then we are talking price to make instead of retail price.
Your ring of protection (+2deflection/+2natural) total +4
would cost less than the cost of a ring of protection +4I am saying the cost is more than 4,000 and less than 32,000
and should lean toward the high end of the range.Your math makes more sense there were others working toward the other end stacking up five or more +1s to get stupid prices. I don't see anything wrong with you calculations!
My mid range would be 18,000, then leaning toward the expensive side gets me to about 20K same as you.....
Ah, ok, then there was a misunderstanding. I thought you wanted it to cost the SAME as the +4 ring, which is way too much.
As to the math, it's important. Lots of arguments seem silly once you put the math down (see above case in point!) :)
As to the +5 from 5 different sources, follows the same logic honestly. A +5 ring of multi-bonus would cost 16,000. A +5 Ring of Protection would cost 50,000. That may seem like a huge difference, but, they've basically taken out the bonus from ANY spell or other item (or, looked at another way, they've paid for bonuses that get wiped out by buff spells). Basically, by the time you can afford to pull +5 multi ring, you can usually afford the +3 ring of Protection instead (same price) and still get full benefit from other items/spells. A +5 multi ring is just an oddity that would only be useful at low levels (1 to 5) and not much beyond there. At level 15 it would be worse than useless.
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It seems to me that there are a few issues at play here.
Multiple bonus types that affect a single thing on a single item
There are simply no examples of this in the core magic items. You can infer lots of things from this but it makes it difficult to discuss.
There is no apparent weigh applied to rare or unusual bonuses
There are only a couple magic items that offer Insight or Luck bonuses and those are tied to fairly expensive items. There is no provision in the tables to apply additional cost to bonuses which are less common.
A luck bonus is going to stack with a lot more items and spells than a deflection bonus making it a lot more valuable. A dodge bonus stacks with other dodge bonuses making it more valuable yet. But there is no provision in the rules for this.
No items in core offer Sacred or Profane bonuses to AC, nor are there apparently any spells which grant these bonuses so there is no basis for creating such items.
There are loads of spells that offer a deflection bonus or natural armor bonus to AC and a few grant luck, insight or competence bonuses but I cannot find any that offer a sacred or a profane bonus to AC. Maybe I just missed them (entirely possible) but I'm skeptical this is even a viable path in the core rules. Maybe some of the 3.5 supplemental books has sacred bonuses in spells/ items?
EDIT: See MDTs post below... I think he has a great point which contradicts points 2 and 3.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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It seems to me that there are a few issues at play here.
No items in core offer Sacred or Profane bonuses to AC, nor are there apparently any spells which grant these bonuses so there is no basis for creating such items.There are loads of spells that offer a deflection bonus or natural armor bonus to AC and a few grant luck, insight or competence bonuses but I cannot find any that offer a sacred or a profane bonus to AC. Maybe I just missed them (entirely possible) but I'm skeptical this is even a viable path in the core rules.
The spell planned assault, from "Dwarves of Golarion."
It seems to me that there are a few issues at play here.
Multiple bonus types that affect a single thing on a single item
There are simply no examples of this in the core magic items. You can infer lots of things from this but it makes it difficult to discuss.There is no apparent weigh applied to rare or unusual bonuses
There are only a couple magic items that offer Insight or Luck bonuses and those are tied to fairly expensive items. There is no provision in the tables to apply additional cost to bonuses which are less common.A luck bonus is going to stack with a lot more items and spells than a deflection bonus making it a lot more valuable. A dodge bonus stacks with other dodge bonuses making it more valuable yet. But there is no provision in the rules for this.
No items in core offer Sacred or Profane bonuses to AC, nor are there apparently any spells which grant these bonuses so there is no basis for creating such items.
There are loads of spells that offer a deflection bonus or natural armor bonus to AC and a few grant luck, insight or competence bonuses but I cannot find any that offer a sacred or a profane bonus to AC. Maybe I just missed them (entirely possible) but I'm skeptical this is even a viable path in the core rules. Maybe some of the 3.5 supplemental books has sacred bonuses in spells/ items?
Just a couple of notes that you missed.
The rules specifically address Luck/Sacred/Profane/etc bonuses to AC (see the price table, it is there Bonus Squared * 2500, which makes them more expensive than Deflection or Natural Armor which is Bonus Squared * 2000). So 'rarity' of bonus is already addressed.
As to 'no basis for creating sacred/profane' ac bonus items, since the magic item creation rules directly address them (see above point), there is precedent for creating them in the core rules.
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The rules specifically address Luck/Sacred/Profane/etc bonuses to AC (see the price table, it is there Bonus Squared * 2500, which makes them more expensive than Deflection or Natural Armor which is Bonus Squared * 2000). So 'rarity' of bonus is already addressed.
As to 'no basis for creating sacred/profane' ac bonus items, since the magic item creation rules directly address them (see above point), there is precedent for creating them in the core rules.
Excellent point. I guess that serves me right for spouting from memory without reviewing the rules first :p
Seems to me the rarity bonus should be more but I guess since it's already squared it ramps up in a hurry.
@Chris Mortika - Not core but confirmation of mdt point.
Did I miss any items that give multiple types of bonuses on the same item? Might as well make it a clean sweep...
wow. a little bit derailed but we got there in the end. thanks for all the input guys.
so we can't do +6 ring. but we can do a multi-bonus ring for less gold, but not as useful. that seems right.
The rules specifically address Luck/Sacred/Profane/etc bonuses to AC (see the price table, it is there Bonus Squared * 2500, which makes them more expensive than Deflection or Natural Armor which is Bonus Squared * 2000). So 'rarity' of bonus is already addressed.
As to 'no basis for creating sacred/profane' ac bonus items, since the magic item creation rules directly address them (see above point), there is precedent for creating them in the core rules.
Excellent point. I guess that serves me right for spouting from memory without reviewing the rules first :p
Seems to me the rarity bonus should be more but I guess since it's already squared it ramps up in a hurry.
@Chris Mortika - Not core but confirmation of mdt point.
Did I miss any items that give multiple types of bonuses on the same item? Might as well make it a clean sweep...
LOL
Nope, not that I know of. I think there might be something in the MIC, but that would be 3.5, not PF. Then again, PF has only had one book with magic items in it, and those are strictly the core items from 3.5 SRD (or replacements) so until we see the equivalent of the MIC for PF (which I'd love, one of the best 3.5 books ever) only home-made items (but legal per the rules in the book).
wow. a little bit derailed but we got there in the end. thanks for all the input guys.
so we can't do +6 ring. but we can do a multi-bonus ring for less gold, but not as useful. that seems right.
Yep, seems to be the case. And I agree, seems fair to me.
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Creative Director
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Heh, well at least the OP got his answer, even though we derailed the thread something massive.In 3.5, rings or cloaks or weapons or armor or whatever that provide a +6 or higher bonus are considered "epic." They're INCREDIBLY expensive (millions of gp in some cases) and aren't really intended to be used by characters who are 20th level or lower.
We haven't actually said much at all about how epic rules work in Pathfinder RPG (aside from pointing out that the 3.5 rules still work if you like them), but as far as official products and the rules themselves go, +5 is the limit for magic items like rings of protection or armor. (Yes, I'm aware that there are higher limits on some things, like bracers of armor; those are different items and their own limits are their own.)
LOL,
Hopefully they'll put that in the Errata though.
Since it's not errata, we won't.
It might end up in the FAQ, I guess.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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It seems to me that there are a few issues at play here.
No items in core offer Sacred or Profane bonuses to AC, nor are there apparently any spells which grant these bonuses so there is no basis for creating such items..
The spell planned assault, from "Dwarves of Golarion."
I take that back. The spell --in all versions, refers to the bonus in one place as a sacred bonus, and the next paragraph as a morale bonus. So ... who knows?
A bit of clarification:
+3/+3 ring is equal in value in that it is equal in total bonus to your ac as a +6 ring.
I agree it should be close to that costsThe whole pricing thing is about finding a price that puts it on par with similar items, not just using the formulas to try to create the cheapest, biggest total bonuses you can. As evidenced by the first section which talks about how the prices are guidelines only and should be matched with similar items already in the book.
Personally, I think it should be a bit less expensive than a standard +6 ring, because you're limiting the other items you can use for bonuses. However, I think it should still be on the upper end of the +6 ring cost.
You know someone was reading the RAW and said hey I can make a +5 ring for 5,000 "according to the rules".
Power gamers WTF are you going to do????
Can you actually read the rules? Where do you get 5k from. Are you even READING our examples? Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing because you have a personal problem with something.
There is NO WAY you can get +5 AC with various different types of protection. If you read the rules/guidelines you would know that everytime you attach another effect there is 50% increase in the price to the base cost of the cheaper item. Even there you are also ignoring another set of rules, the different TYPES of AC you can get, each following their OWN rules.
You also have ignored my post, as I explained earlier, that combining items of AC is not a good idea or cheapest, as one can save more gold by combining them with like abilities.
So my final to you here NOT ALL AC TYPES ARE THE SAME! Each have their own rules and counters.
Sorry
I threw out a random 5 K. And argued against the formulas and math.
That seems pretty consistent to me....The idea was someone wanted a ring of cheese for a low cost and I said no way....
I do read the rules RAW and vary from them however I like. It is not a personal problem to say someones calculations are off and then quote very specific RAW.
From RAW
Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren't enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point.I merely suggested the cost would be closer to the costs of a +5 ring.rather than some formula that RAW admits doesn't really work.......
Okay.
I have a series of questions for you if you could please answer.
1. Do you allow Natural Armor AC Items
2. Do you allow Deflection AC items?
3. Do you allow ANY items to be combined for the same lot.
Questions 1 - 3
Answer
Depends....
on the specifics of the item
If the item is cheese or if it is legitimate.
Please tell me about the specific item you have in mind and we can talk about how to get there and costs.
In my view since the formulas don't "actually" work then creating any item not in RAW needs to be a "case by case basis" so that the DM can properly run his/her game.
These are straightforward yes or no questions.
Edit: Let me re-phrase it a little.
1. Do you allow Amulet of Natural Armor?
2. Do you allow Rings of Protection?
3. Do you allow combining of items of ANY sort.
Guess he figured out what I was pointing at, and gave up?