Hello,
I'm wondering a bit about the leadership feat, especially the follower part.
Benefits: This feat enables you to attract a loyal cohort and a number of devoted subordinates who assist you. A cohort is generally an NPC with class levels, while followers are typically lower level NPCs. See Table: Leadership for what level of cohort and how many followers you can recruit.
First of all, it's pretty clear that it's not really about class levels. You can't take a Deva with 1 level of warrior as a first level follower. So it probably would be better to make that table with CR's. Now I never really got behind how CR's are calculated. What I do know is that exotic races have different CR's.
A level 1 kobold warrior has CR 1/4, a level 1 drow warrior has CR 1/3, a level 1 tiefling rogue is CR 1/2 and the race is supposed to be more powerful than a standard race. So I can't figure out how much of that CR increase is from the race and how much from the heroic class. Leading a kobold tribe with the Leadership feat seems kind of unfair against normal leadership followers (I assume Drow have the normal powerlevel, but I'm not sure) or a demon cult with a lot of tieflings.
Another important question is the class. Under normal circumstances I would say that the Followers have NPC-classes. Heroes are usually the ones who run around on their own plundering dungeons, killing monsters and occasionally stopping armies. But what if a Paladin takes the Leadership feat to found his own order? Or what if somebody uses it to found his own kingdom and wants his two highest level followers to be a court wizard and a cleric? Both are roles an adept can't really fill out.
In 3E adepts and aristocrats counted as followers that were two levels higher. Those with heroic classes counted as three levels higher, but it seems that this was dropped in 3.5. So how would you balance different races and class types?
Hello,
I'm wondering a bit about the leadership feat, especially the follower part.
Benefits: This feat enables you to attract a loyal cohort and a number of devoted subordinates who assist you. A cohort is generally an NPC with class levels, while followers are typically lower level NPCs. See Table: Leadership for what level of cohort and how many followers you can recruit.
First of all, it's pretty clear that it's not really about class levels.
I'm not sure I agree. "A cohort is generally an NPC with class levels" suggests to me that normally class levels is what it is about.
You can't take a Deva with 1 level of warrior as a first level follower. So it probably would be better to make that table with CR's.
I'm not sure leadership allows you to take monsters as followers (it certainly doesn't say you can.), so I would agree a Deva is out.
However, if race choice is restricted to Human, elf, halfling, dwarf, gnome, half orc and half elf, then class levels works just fine.
I don't see anything under leadership that suggests you can use monsters and replace "levels" with "CR" of the monster.
Another important question is the class. Under normal circumstances I would say that the Followers have NPC-classes.
I find this interpretation intriguing (especially considering how overpowered Leadership is) and I could see using it as a house-rule very reasonably.
However, I don't see anything in Pathfinder campaign paths that suggests to me that the standard classes are "hero only", as many minor irrelevant NPC's have PC classes. Nor does the Leadership feat suggest anywhere that the "class levels" must be NPC-only classes.
Now a GM MAY allow you to be more flexible with the Leadership feat. However, there are no specific rules for doing so.
First of all thanks for the reply.
I'm not sure I agree. "A cohort is generally an NPC with class levels" suggests to me that normally class levels is what it is about.
Well, there's a table called "Monster Cohorts" that gives level equivalents. http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterCohorts.html But that's cohorts only. ;-)
I'm not sure leadership allows you to take monsters as followers (it certainly doesn't say you can.), so I would agree a Deva is out.However, if race choice is restricted to Human, elf, halfling, dwarf, gnome, half orc and half elf, then class levels works just fine.
I don't see anything under leadership that suggests you can use monsters and replace "levels" with "CR" of the monster.
That's the point. For cohorts there's special table if you want a powerful monster as a cohort. But if you want more exotic followers for any reason (in old D&D having drow followers would have been almost impossible because of the Level Adjustment +2), you can get either very weak ones (for example if a Dragon Disciple wants to try and lead a good kobold tribe who worship him because of his draconic heritage) or stronger than average ones if you try to do something like founding a guild or political party that protects the rights of tieflings in a society where native outsiders are a big minority. For such cases I seek a way to balance them.
I find this interpretation intriguing (especially considering how overpowered Leadership is) and I could see using it as a house-rule very reasonably.However, I don't see anything in Pathfinder campaign paths that suggests to me that the standard classes are "hero only", as many minor irrelevant NPC's have PC classes. Nor does the Leadership feat suggest anywhere that the "class levels" must be NPC-only classes.
Well I started playing when 3E came out (if you don't count Baldur's Gate II), and still use the Epic Level Handbook of that edition, so I never really realised until now that the restriction was lifted. I have to admit I don't like both extremes. The old 3E way was too restrictive. You could only have warriors, commoners and experts (the rules for aristocrats, adepts and followers with hero classes where added with Epic Leadership in the ELH), what made a lot of concepts impossible. The freedom of 3.5 and Pathfinder is too easy to abuse and makes heroes less special. Personally I would have preferred a middle ground where the bulk consists of NPC-classes and you have certain percentage of "officers" who can have hero class levels.
Now a GM MAY allow you to be more flexible with the Leadership feat. However, there are no specific rules for doing so.
That's a shame. :-( Well, then I guess my only real rules question is how the CR is calculated, the rest would fall under house rules.
Just a detail: The reason bestiary Tieflings have CR 1/2 while Drows have 1/3 is that the Tiefling is a Rogue, a PC class, while the Drow is a Warrior, an NPC class. A 1st level Drow Rogue would have CR 1/3, and a 1st level Tiefling Warrior would have CR 1/3. Tiefling is rather balanced as a PC race. Aasimar is IMO a little too good as a cleric, but not enough to warrant a higher CR.
The reason kobolds have CR 1/4 is that, IIRC, a kobold with NPC-class levels only count as one CR lower than other races. Thus, a kobold rogue would also have CR 1/2.
IIRC, this is how you calculate CR for monsters with no class levels only and no racial CR-adjustment:
If NPC class level, CR = Level -2.
If Kobold with NPC class level, CR = Level -3.
If PC class level, CR = Level -1.
If CR is lower than 1, you divide CR by the number of points below 1 it should be, +1 (hard to describe, but you'll get the feeling of it).
Warrior 1 = 1-2 = 1/3
Rogue 1 = 1-1 = 1/2
Adept 3 = 3-2 = 1
Kobold Expert 2 = 2-3 = 1/3
IIRC, this is how you calculate CR for monsters with no class levels only and no racial CR-adjustment:
If NPC class level, CR = Level -2.
If Kobold with NPC class level, CR = Level -3.
If PC class level, CR = Level -1.
If CR is lower than 1, you divide CR by the number of points below 1 it should be, +1 (hard to describe, but you'll get the feeling of it).Warrior 1 = 1-2 = 1/3
Rogue 1 = 1-1 = 1/2
Adept 3 = 3-2 = 1
Kobold Expert 2 = 2-3 = 1/3
Thanks a lot, that's great information! :-)
Just a detail: The reason bestiary Tieflings have CR 1/2 while Drows have 1/3 is that the Tiefling is a Rogue, a PC class, while the Drow is a Warrior, an NPC class. A 1st level Drow Rogue would have CR 1/3, and a 1st level Tiefling Warrior would have CR 1/3. Tiefling is rather balanced as a PC race. Aasimar is IMO a little too good as a cleric, but not enough to warrant a higher CR.
Good to know. I was unsure about that because of the long list of ways to nerf player character Tieflings in Council of Thieves. :D And I couldn't find any level 1 members of standard races to compare in the bestiary.
The reason kobolds have CR 1/4 is that, IIRC, a kobold with NPC-class levels only count as one CR lower than other races. Thus, a kobold rogue would also have CR 1/2.
Are you sure about that? It seems kind of weird, that a kobold suddenly has the same CR as a standard race just because of a heroic class.O_o
Are you sure about that? It seems kind of weird, that a kobold suddenly has the same CR as a standard race just because of a heroic class.O_o
Checked it right now, and I was correct.
"A kobold with NPC class levels takes a –3 penalty to its CR (rather than the normal –2 penalty). All kobolds have the following racial traits. "http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-lists-and-details/-k/kobold
I think it has to do with classes. A 3rd level kobold adept, warrior, expert or aristocrat will all suffer greatly from the -4 str, -2 con.
As NPC classes use the low attribute array, a 3rd level adept will have a main casting attribute of 13, leading to 2 1st level spells with a DC of 12. This means even an adept will have to use weapons for offense, meaning he's dead (and the 3d6+3 hp he'll probably have won't make it better).
On the other hand, a 3rd level kobold sorcerer will have a main stat of 15, and 6 1st-level spells with a DC of 13 - so he probably doesn't have to use his strength in combat. Thus, the "koboldness" won't feel as much...
Ah, thanks, I didn't think of them using a different ability score array. :D
I think I'm going to post a house-rule version of the Leadership feat in the appropriate forum within the next few days.