To everyones favorite Treantmonk!! - Please HELP!! lol


Advice


Dear Mr. Treantmonk Sir,

It has come to my attention that you are basically THE AUTHORITY on Wizards(I read all your guides and lovem) among other things. Recently I was playtesting the Summoner from Paizo's upcoming release. I couldn't help but notice in my testing that he seems to be playing more as a self buffing off-melee/off-tank with a couple of pets rather than a caster in the traditional sense.

So we come to my question:
How do you view this class, and what recommendations as to
feats/spell/skills choices as well as stat assignment, if any,
do you have

Just so you don't think I'm mooching or stealing your brilliant ideas(blatant suck up), here is my current form setup(without specific values)

Stats:
CHA > CON > INT > DEX > STR > WIS

Skills:
Spellcraft > UMD > FLY > Know(Planes) > Know(Arcana) > Others

Feats:
1 - Spell Focus Conjuration
3 - Augment Summoning
5 - Arcane Armor Training
7 - Armor Proficiency, Medium
9 - Arcane Armor Mastery
11 - Leadership(assume Eidolon is a Familiar/Companion so -2 modifier)
13 - Extend Spell
15 - Arcane Strike(get a +1 weapon with +9 abilities and now its a +14)
17 - Combat Expertise(Extra AC helps for off-tank/melee)
19* - Defensive Combat Training(better late than never)
*If your a human get rid of this, shift everything up one on the list, make 17&19 Endurance > Die Hard

I really hoped to make him more castery but given his severe lack of direct damage spells, I thought this fit better.

Anyways, thanks in advance for your response and thanks for all the hard work you threw into your many Highest Quality class guides so far, you are a pro in my book! :P


JimmyNids wrote:
Dear Mr. Treantmonk Sir,

Treatmonk, you need to either start charging, or start publishing.


Helic wrote:

Treatmonk, you need to either start charging, or start publishing.

I will gladly pay if ya want :P


JimmyNids wrote:
Helic wrote:

Treatmonk, you need to either start charging, or start publishing.

I will gladly pay if ya want :P

I can guess what he'll probably say...if you're going to hit things with a stick, you should prioritize STR. If you're buffing/non-attack spells, your DCs don't matter very much. But STR and Power Attack (esp. with a 2H weapon) counts heavily for hit and damage.

EDIT: And a one level dip in a martial class gets you all the armor and weapon proficiencies you could want, more BaB and Hit Points, leaving your feats more free...think about it.


Helic wrote:


I can guess what he'll probably say...if you're going to hit things with a stick, you should prioritize STR. If you're buffing/non-attack spells, your DCs don't matter very much. But STR and Power Attack (esp. with a 2H weapon) counts heavily for hit and damage.

EDIT: And a one level dip in a martial class gets you all the armor and weapon proficiencies you could want, more BaB and Hit Points, leaving your feats more free...think about it.

All valid points however CHA isnt just for spell DCs but also bonus spells per day. It also affects the primary skill choice, Use Magic Device, which gets him access to Scrolls, Stalves and Wands with spells he would otherwise be unable to use, such as fireballs, magic missiles, polar rays, etc.. and his second primary class feature(summon monster as a spell-like ability 3+CHA times per day). I guess if you had to make it lower in the list, you could but I would at least give it the 3rd best stat(try to get 24ish CHA by endgame so you can pretty much never need to roll a UMD check to succeed)

Int was in there for Skills, more the merrier, but you only really need +3 total so Int 16 off the bat or int 10 with enhance items tuned to 3 of the 5 primary skills will work. Otherwise Int could be dropped to 4 in the list... so if I had to rework the list I would say:

CON(14+) > CHA(14-18) > DEX(10-14) > STR(12+) > INT(10-16) > WIS(DUMP-O-RAMA)

CON is Hit Points and Fort Saves and your prolly gonna end up on the front lines a lot as an Off-Tank so keep it high!!
CHA.. HELLO! Bonus spells per day, Summon Monster(Sp) 3+CHA times per day and primary stat for Use Magic Device(your primary magic damage source)... Would be #1 if you weren't doin front line detail so often.
DEX would also not need be high since I would use Breastplate.. maybe Mirthil, with a +6 DEX item you would only need 10-14.
STR as you said for Attack and Damage rolls, though i still think not so important personally.
INT as said is just for extra skill points, if you start with a 16 you shouldnt need an INT+ stat item but if you don't, I would go for the skills listed.
WIS.. is pointless except for your Will save.. so don't put effort into this one.

See now you got me second guessing myself here heh, this is exactly why I wanted feedback. It is helping me greatly even if you aren't the almighty one(Treantmonk, not God)

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

I think there are really three options:

Caster focused - focus on getting the most out of summoning - the class feature, and the spells. Here I would focus on charisma.

Mellee focused - Two options - the feat cheap 2H option or the more feat intensive, but perhaps quite effective mounted combat. Power Attack and Arcane Strike is a nice combo.

Archer focused - Archery is feat intensive but gets great damage.

I think at high level the missing BAB and the improved summons will make the caster focused version better. At lower levels, my intuition says the direct damage classes will be better.

I would focus less on Cha in the latter two builds and consider a fighter dip for feats and proficiencies.

I don't think it is optimal but some part of me loves this build:

1 Fighter EWP Whip, Weapon Finesse
2 Summoner
3 Summoner Serpent Lash - Osirion Book - Free attack on a trip and other stuff
4 Summoner
5 Summoner Combat Expertise
6 Summoner
7 Summoner Imp Trip
8 Summoner
9 Summoner Fury's fall - Dex to CMB
10 Summoner
11 Summoner Greater Trip
12 Summoner
13 Fighter Power Attack, Arcane Strike
14 Summoner
15 Summoner Craft Arms and Armor
16 Summoner
17 Summoner Spell Focus Conj
18 Summoner
19 Summoner Augment Summoning
20 Summoner

You would use a scorpion whip for decent damage and to generate lots of extra attacks (from your Eilodon and Summons). Plus a summoner with a whip really seems kind of awesome to me.

Dex > Cha > Int > Con > Str > Wis


My bad, I am currently not factoring in 3.5 material, strictly Paizo's Pathfinder books and I am not familiar with all of their legal materials(scorpion whip, Osirion Book, Serpent Lash) could you site the sources so I can look them up(and if they are in the Pathfinder books give me a reference cause i only skimmed them over for what i needed using my 3.5 knowledge to fill gaps)

Thanks for the ideas though! I didn't consider him a Machine Gunner at first glance so much as a battle field supporter who would sit and soak some hits.. along with his pet(s).

Also forgot to mention that with leadership i am testing all different classes but I am taking a liking to Alchemist as the cohort. He's not overly threatening so not a primary target, while he still hits nicely with touch attack bombs, and his potion making skills will be a boon to the party. Thus I turn my Leadership into his Brew Potion and Xd6 Bombadier. I realize I would be better off with someone like a Fighter or other top tier class, but I would think a Summoner would attract someone more like an Alchemist than a Fighter or Paladin.

Anyhow keep the feedback coming, I really appreciate it!

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

All Paizo stuff, though some was before the switch to PFRPG.

The Osirion book is 'Osirion - Land of the Pharaohs'
Fury's Fall is from the Cheliax book
The whip that does real damage to an armored foe is from Legacy of Fire.


JimmyNids wrote:
Helic wrote:


I can guess what he'll probably say...if you're going to hit things with a stick, you should prioritize STR.
All valid points however CHA isnt just for spell DCs but also bonus spells per day. It also affects the primary skill choice, Use Magic Device, which gets him access to Scrolls, Stalves and Wands with spells he would otherwise be unable to use, such as fireballs, magic missiles, polar rays, etc.. and his second primary class feature(summon monster as a spell-like ability 3+CHA times per day). I guess if you had to make it lower in the list, you could but I would at least give it the 3rd best stat(try to get 24ish CHA by endgame so you can pretty much never need to roll a UMD check to succeed)

All good reasons to be sure, BUT keep the following in mind: Combat starts. What do you do?

Round 1: Use your Summon Monster ability (natch)
Round 2: Buff?
Round 3: Buff?
Round 4: Fight over...(often)

If this is the way you'll run him, then you're not a melee character at all. When you start getting Haste and Mass (Buff X) spells buffing all your minions + party will win fights, but you won't swing a sword at all until the fight's almost over.

But, if you plan on running him as 'self buffing off-melee/off-tank', you can only do so much self buffing without being completely ineffective, b/c by the time you actually start damaging the enemy, the rest of your party has either won the fight or died (this happened to my party once...the cleric decided to triple-buff during a combat...to face the enemy virtually all alone by the time he was done...not pretty). :-/

So there's only so many medium-long buffs available, so you don't need lots and lots of spells (b/c those spells do last). Yes you'll need Charisma for extra Summons, but this depends on how many fights a day you'll have (more than 5?) and don't forget wands of Summon Monster are your friend.

As for UMD, you need to roll a 20 to use wands. At 1st level, 14 CHA, you have 1 rank and a +6 bonus. By the time you can afford to buy wands (750gp for a level 1 wand!), you'll have more bonus and Skill Focus can help a lot in this regard.

Another point! Summoners can cast in light armor, so you don't need Arcane Armor Training/Mastery - just Medium Armor Prof., and Mithril Breastplate (which counts as light armor for all but proficiency...not 100% on this, but can't find anything that contradicts it).

Quote:
Int was in there for Skills, more the merrier,

Well, within reason, of course. UMD will eventually cap out (esp. combined with Skill Focus) to the point where more skill ranks is pointless, you probably won't need max Fly ranks, and Spellcraft? What for, exactly? You're not making items, inventing spells, etcetera, and probably someone else in the group can identify magic items better than you. Plus humans (go human!) get bonus skill points. You can probably get away with an INT of 12 (a bargain on the point buy system).

Quote:


CON is Hit Points and Fort Saves and your prolly gonna end up on the front lines a lot as an Off-Tank so keep it high!!

CON is good. Everyone loves CON.

Quote:


STR as you said for Attack and Damage rolls, though i still think not so important personally.

Unless you're archer or TW Finesse Fighter, STR is supreme for melee. Bonus to hit and bonus to damage means you both hit more AND do more damage every time you hit (meaning your bonus to hit actually increases your damage potential). Use a 2 hander adds 50% more bonus damage. 18 STR means +6 damage, +9 damage with Power Attack. And that's at 1st level.

Of course, it all depends on the points you have to spread around. At 20 points, I'd go with this:

STR 14
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 8
CHA 14

And I'd put the human bonus into STR. Though putting it into CHA isn't a bad choice either. If you don't want to take a Fighter dip, use a Spear (1D8 damage is 'meh', but it doesn't eat feats) and with 16 STR and Power Attack you're doing (effectively) +2 hit and +7 damage right out of the gate (or +3 hit/+4 damage), with an AC of 16 (chain shirt + DEX). With 14 STR, you'd be +1/+6 (power attack) or +2/+3.

Displacement is your spell at 7th level...50% miss chance is worth a LOT of AC.

At 1st level, having Spell Focus: Conj + Augment Summons is huge, which is why you should go human and get it, since your summons last for 1 minute, not 1 round. Power Attack at 3rd level.


First thing is first, loving the feedback :)

Helic wrote:

Another point! Summoners can cast in light armor, so you don't need Arcane Armor Training/Mastery - just Medium Armor Prof., and Mithril Breastplate (which counts as light armor for all but proficiency...not 100% on this, but can't find anything that contradicts it).

DM made his ruling on this, which I thought sounded official so I thought everyone did it..

"Most mithril armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations...(skip example sentence)... This does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithril full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving."

Since Mithril does not negate the necessity for proficiency in that armor category for penalties(to attack, skill checks) he ruled that the penalty for arcane somatic components(Arcane Spell Failure) also still applies. His logic: "While it says one category lighter for movement and other limitations, the penalties to attack rolls and skills such as Acrobatics/Fly/Swim are in no small part also due to restricted movement of arms and/or legs depending on the armor selected, and ASF is nothing if not dependent upon free movement. It still applies."

So as you see I am kinda boned on that one if thats not how it is, but anyways thanks and keep the input coming!

Liberty's Edge

The other thing to remember is that a "traditional" Arcane Spellcasting Character has been a summoning, buffing, and de-buffing class for the last ten years. Tossing around evocations and necromancy effects hasn't been an optimum choice since second edition, and still isn't always even viable depending on level, party makeup, and enemy composition.

In terms of power, a summoner compares reasonably well to a Conjuration specialized wizard. There are some drawbacks, but some benefits too.


JimmyNids wrote:

First thing is first, loving the feedback :)

Helic wrote:

Another point! Summoners can cast in light armor, so you don't need Arcane Armor Training/Mastery - just Medium Armor Prof., and Mithril Breastplate (which counts as light armor for all but proficiency...not 100% on this, but can't find anything that contradicts it).

DM made his ruling on this, which I thought sounded official so I thought everyone did it..

Let's just say I find his logic unconvincing...and incomprehensible.

If that's the case, though, I'd stick with the Chain Shirt, as the +2 AC from the breastplate isn't worth spending 2 feats (maybe 3, if you count Medium Armor Prof) and a Swift Action. Instead, go with Dodge (+1 AC) and never worry about ASF. Someday you'll be able to afford Celestial Armor (which IS light armor). Those feats can be better spent elsewhere.

If you really want AC bonuses, get AAT and Shield Proficiency - a heavy mithril shield is 5% ASF, easily countered by AAT alone. You could use a light shield (any kind) early on and suck up the ASF - 5% isn't much.


Quote:
Anyways, thanks in advance for your response and thanks for all the hard work you threw into your many Highest Quality class guides so far, you are a pro in my book! :P

OH! Got me in my one weakness...my ego. ;)

Quote:
Treatmonk, you need to either start charging, or start publishing.

If I could make a living publishing RPG material - I would, but wouldn't we all?

That said - in all honesty I haven't picked apart the Summoner class all that carefully. We just finished a LONG (about 2 or 3 years) campaign where I played a Malconvoker - so it will be a while before I play a dedicated summoner again.

From what I've seen of the Summoner class, I would say:

Spells: Obviously you aren't getting a lot of castings per day, or super high level spells. Still - the spell list is pretty sweet.

My recommendation with summoning is don't buff a summoned creature unless you are buffing everyone. It's just not worth it. Spells like Haste are still a great investment if you want to buff. Otherwise, grab any of the awesome spells on the list. Grease, Glitterdust, Slow, Fly...is that Magic Jar as a 4th level spell? Nice.

Skills: UMD springs off the page don't it? Obviously you want enough Linguistics to learn Infernal, Abyssal, Celestial, Auran, Aquan, Ignan and Terran. Fly and Spellcraft are good ideas, and knowledges (the planes/Religion/Arcana/Nature) are all good choices.

Obviously you can't take all of those - but UMD is your first choice, then pick and choose from the rest.

Role: I'm not sure you need to mix it up at all. Yeah, you don't have a huge number of castings per day, but remember that summoning is giving you 3+Cha mod extra castings per day. That puts you in a lot better position than an Inquisitor or a Bard on the casting front.

If you are going to mix it up - maybe consider a bow. Your Eidolon is pretty friggin' tough - and you can up its damage output by shooting in some arrows. Get in close enough to benefit from PBS and you can get the nice "being close to my Eidolon" abilities too.

Race: Halfling kind of seems like the perfect choice doesn't it? Humans are always good choices. Gnome would probably be decent as well.

Feats: Point blank shot, Precise shot, Rapid shot, Arcane strike, Manyshot. Those are the ones that stand out to me.

Stats: Dex > Cha > Str > Con > Int > Wis

Dex and Cha may switch (and Str dumped) if you are planning on casting as a primary role.

As for the armor discussion: If you take Medium Armor Prof - you can wear a mithril breastplate and cast spells as if it were light armor. Here's the quote,

PFSRD - Mithral wrote:
Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor.

The "other limitations" would be you being only able to cast in light armor by the way.

That said, if you do the archery thing, your Dex will be high, and your feats will be stretched, so you may be better off with a Mithral Shirt anyways.


***GLAZED LOOK*** The almighty one has spoken ***DROOL***

Back to reality now, thanks for all the advice guys, as always it is much appreciated. I was considering Halflings, Humans, and Tengu(2 languages per linguistics point and free proficiency in all swords even if it hurts con and ups wis+dex) as the main 3 races from core Pathfinder. I am still concerned about this class not really fitting into any of the main categories, it isn't a Tank/Striker/Healer to any major extent so the only main spot left is Controller and hes looking sub par in that at best. Thinking its mostly a 5th wheel type class like the bards of old, sorta 1/3 tank, 1/3 striker, 1/3 controller. He really cannot be a full caster and if someone wants to point out how I would welcome it but with his spell selection such as it is and his wasting of actions on summoning usually 2 times a fight(before using actual spells to summon), he seems more suited to the bards life... -music +eidolon/summons.

Looking to leadership as a standout feat, he already has an eidolon which is equivalent to or better than all those familiars/companions/mounts so thats a -2 right off but it shouldnt make too much difference.

The thought of making him ranged is nice, however I then need to waste a feat on a weapon proficiency bow or be an elf, or take rapid reload for x-bows... so its a wasted feat no matter how ya see it there(elf isn't human :P ) Still, that would open up a nice amount of stat requirements letting me up DEX and INT and throw CON lower in the list. Arg now ima have more playtesting to do!

Maybe I should make a guide for this class when its officially released... sorry if you find lots of cut and paste jobs from your guides TM :P

Thanks again as always guys!


JimmyNids wrote:
***GLAZED LOOK*** The almighty one has spoken ***DROOL***

Ya know Treant, seeing as you are pretty much the only serious contributing member from the old CharOp boards to make the switch to Pathfinder (or at least these forums), you have virtually no competition for the title "King of Optimization" around here. Might have been different had Caelic, Funny, Tempest, or some of the others joined us, but your it man. So my question is...is it lonely on top?


Gambit wrote:
JimmyNids wrote:
***GLAZED LOOK*** The almighty one has spoken ***DROOL***
Ya know Treant, seeing as you are pretty much the only serious contributing member from the old CharOp boards to make the switch to Pathfinder (or at least these forums), you have virtually no competition for the title "King of Optimization" around here. Might have been different had Caelic, Funny, Tempest, or some of the others joined us, but your it man. So my question is...is it lonely on top?

All I can say is this: Absolute power corrupts absolutely, but it absolutely rocks too.

Seriously, I would love to see more class handbook writers on these boards, but nothing says they need to be from the 3.5 forums. Take a look at John Spalding's ("Cryptictraveller") Paladin guide for example. I hope to see more handbooks by others, because although I love the occasional ego rub, I love being lazy even more.

As for Optimization itself, I'm no "king" here. Perhaps the best-known, but I don't think I'm the best at it. I struggle a bit when not discussing spells/magical tactics (getting better though). Optimizers like "Man In Black" for example are more versatile.

I got an undue amount of love on this particular thread, which is fine by me, since I work for flattery.

The Exchange

I would take my chances at writing a handbook or two, but you've done quite a bit of groundwork on the casters (minus the cleric, but it also is the one class I've avoided playing since I started table-top gaming), and the non-casters really don't take a lot of thought to make into the glass-canons, big stupid fighters, or corpses (at least it doesn't seem that way to me). But hey, I already optimize the rest of my group's characters anyways. I've been looking into the Alchemist and Inquisitor classes quite a lot lately, maybe I'll take a stab at them after the final version comes out. The inquisitor does seem like a very selfish bard, though.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

JimmyNids wrote:

I am still concerned about this class not really fitting into any of the main categories, it isn't a Tank/Striker/Healer to any major extent so the only main spot left is Controller and hes looking sub par in that at best. Thinking its mostly a 5th wheel type class like the bards of old, sorta 1/3 tank, 1/3 striker, 1/3 controller.

An Eilodon is at the minimum a journeyman striker. If we ignore (for the sake of a fair comparison) the fighter-archer and the paladin when smiting...the eilodon looks pretty good.

For one: you get the two things that really make mellee damage work...PA and high strength. PA is due to the sheer number of primary attacks. A 2H weapon user gets a better ratio... but you get more attacks... potentially a lot more. You also get better than average strength (after 6th level anyhow and before that you can have three attacks at 1st level).

As far as tanking goes...if that is even a role in PF, and I am not certain it is...no good threat mechanic, AC is not really based on class, point buy and racial bonuses sometimes free up more points for con in less martial classes (i.e. gnome sorcerers can rock silly high con scores). That aside summons are great at soaking hits. They have decent HP and many are big enough to serve as road blocks. The Eilodon can be a little HP fragile, but you can definitely get its AC up if you focus on that. Few do, but it is possible.

You heal as well as any other class that doesn't have the heal spell and cannot channel (which is to say poorly, but passably in an emergency, 3.5 style with CLW wands), because you have every reason to rock a great UMD.

Lastly, the role you left out, skills guy, the summoner can be really good. Sure the summoner skill list kind of sucks. But the Eidolon skill list is awesome... perception and choose 4, thank you very much. Plus the skilled evolution is a free +8 of racial (read stacking with items) bonus and you can take it a couple times. That puts the ranger and even the bard to shame. Between the two you get 6+int, the best list in the game and, if needed, a huge bonus. The only downside here is that you don't have trapfinding to disable magic traps.


Treantmonk wrote:
Gambit wrote:
JimmyNids wrote:
***GLAZED LOOK*** The almighty one has spoken ***DROOL***
Ya know Treant, seeing as you are pretty much the only serious contributing member from the old CharOp boards to make the switch to Pathfinder (or at least these forums), you have virtually no competition for the title "King of Optimization" around here. Might have been different had Caelic, Funny, Tempest, or some of the others joined us, but your it man. So my question is...is it lonely on top?

All I can say is this: Absolute power corrupts absolutely, but it absolutely rocks too.

Seriously, I would love to see more class handbook writers on these boards, but nothing says they need to be from the 3.5 forums. Take a look at John Spalding's ("Cryptictraveller") Paladin guide for example. I hope to see more handbooks by others, because although I love the occasional ego rub, I love being lazy even more.

As for Optimization itself, I'm no "king" here. Perhaps the best-known, but I don't think I'm the best at it. I struggle a bit when not discussing spells/magical tactics (getting better though). Optimizers like "Man In Black" for example are more versatile.

I got an undue amount of love on this particular thread, which is fine by me, since I work for flattery.

I've done alot of playtesting with the summoner. I'm even playing one in a current campaign that will hopefully go 1-20. Maybe when the APG comes out I'll take a crack at it. Though I dont think i can hope to match the one thing you have in spades, style. Seriously your writing style is a pleasure to read and it comes across really well. Instead of the more abrasive style that some optimizers myself included tend to lean towards.


Treantmonk wrote:
As for Optimization itself, I'm no "king" here. Perhaps the best-known, but I don't think I'm the best at it.

Yeah but you are perceived as such around here my friend, and you know what they say, perception is in the eye of that thing WotC owns a monopoly on and Paizo cant publish.

And how many other forum members have their own section of the SRD...


Gambit wrote:
Treantmonk wrote:
As for Optimization itself, I'm no "king" here. Perhaps the best-known, but I don't think I'm the best at it.

Yeah but you are perceived as such around here my friend, and you know what they say, perception is in the eye of that thing WotC owns a monopoly on and Paizo cant publish.

And how many other forum members have their own section of the SRD...

It's the PFSRD (the fan content site). John pops up on pages where posters submit content regularly to ask if they want to collaborate.

I am grateful to have a spot where my stuff is easy to find and access.

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