Up in the gamer connection section, I posted a notice about an online "Living Game" playtest that a website I am involved with is doing. In it I stated that D&D 4e was being used for the playtest because it is what most people seem to be playing nowadays. This sentence elicited many expressions of surprise and incredulity.
It is my impression, from both the net and my local area, that more tabletop gamers are playing D&D 4e than anything else, and that the majority of tabletop gamers are playing 4e. Obviously that is not true of people on this board, but it seems to be true in the English speaking world in general. And yet...I keep seeing indications that D&D no longer holds the commanding lead it once had in sales or player base. I keep hearing WOTC and Paizo mentioned in the same breath as the market leaders, with everyone else behind. And there seem to be a lot 3.5er's out there who are still very active with that system.
So what are the figures like? Does anyone know? Does anyone else have different impressions?
It really depends on the area and the message board you are on
I was at two game stores yesterday less then a block apart
One says he cant sell forth edition at all and the other store is running 4E's new living adventure. I forgot to ask him how his sales were of Pathfinder compared to 4E
I personally wouldnt take 4E stuff unless it was given to me free and then I would try to figure out how to back convert it to Pathfinder
Out of interest, I took a look at game advertisements on myth-weavers.com. Judging from that, D&D 3.5 is the most popular by a fair margin, followed by D&D 4e, Pathfinder, and Star Wars, followed by other games like GURPS or Mutants & Masterminds.
In all honesty 4e is the leader. It's D&D and that logo and brand name means more than the system behind it. The market share might not be as large as it was, but it's still the 800 lbs gorilla.
Hyrum.
Super Genius Games
"We err on the side of awesome."
Actually, I'm confused -- by "market share", do you mean the number of people buying RPG products, or the number of people playing a given RPG? Certainly more people are buying 4e stuff than 3.5.
Actually, I'm confused -- by "market share", do you mean the number of people buying RPG products, or the number of people playing a given RPG? Certainly more people are buying 4e stuff than 3.5.
By "Market Share" I meant the number of people buying, or sales volume, whatever. I used the term "player base" to mean the number of people actually playing the game. My impressions have more to do with player base, actually, because I've never asked anyone how much product of each type they sell.
Actually, I'm confused -- by "market share", do you mean the number of people buying RPG products, or the number of people playing a given RPG? Certainly more people are buying 4e stuff than 3.5.By "Market Share" I meant the number of people buying, or sales volume, whatever. I used the term "player base" to mean the number of people actually playing the game. My impressions have more to do with player base, actually, because I've never asked anyone how much product of each type they sell.
Here's ICV2.com's 2009 4th quarter rpg games
1- D&D 4th
2- Pathfinder
3- Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay
4- Rouge Trader/Dark Heresy
5- World of Darkness
I tend not to buy anything 4E unless it is handed to me for free, because I rely on the online subcription for all my material. For the same fact, it will be hard to judge overall 4E or pathfinder market share becaues they have subscription based models that may be hard to extract sales figures.
Regardless of which one is played more, if there is a good GM, then let's go forth and conquer!
It surprises me that World of Darkness was fifth. It's not as popular as it was, then?
It also surprises me that Pathfinder is more popular than Warhammer; after all, they have their own shops.
Interesting stuff... and good for Paizo!
Well, it is Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, not the mini game, but I was still surprised to see it up that high. It seems like White Wolf only puts out physical books when they feel like they have something really kick-ass to produce (one of the happy side effects of being owned by a MMO company yet still being allowed autonomy), so it makes a bit of sense. Regardless, even though White Wolf is my true love, I'm happy to see Pathfinder at second place! Great job guys!
It's important to draw the distinction between what the really hardcore tabletop gamers who spend significant time talking about their hobby online tend to play, and what your typical tabletop gamer is playing.
The former group probably plays a lot more PFRPG than the latter group, though I'm still relatively certain that 4e remains the most popular game even for the enthusiast audience.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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It's important to draw the distinction between what the really hardcore tabletop gamers who spend significant time talking about their hobby online tend to play, and what your typical tabletop gamer is playing.
The former group probably plays a lot more PFRPG than the latter group, though I'm still relatively certain that 4e remains the most popular game even for the enthusiast audience.
I'm sorry, Scott, but you are incorrect. The most popular game among the Enthusiast crowd is "Bang, Bang, you're dead!" Followed closely by "You Have Cooties, Yuck!" and the ever-so-popular "You Be the Mommy, I'll Be the Daddy."
What I find most interesting is that Fantasy Flight Games takes 3 and 4 - I did not see them as such a big RPG publisher at all. Didn´t they get into RPGs with 3.0/OGL as well? Nowadays, two of their game lines alone sell better than the whole WoD - I seem to recall that White Wolf was considered the #2 RPG publisher overall, but that was way back. So, D&D4 and D&D 3.5 seem to have the market cornered somewhat, with everything else behind that. Given WotCs/TSRs/D&Ds history as market leader, this is not very surprising. But that Pathfinder seems to be such a huge success is nice to hear.
Stefan
...though I'm still relatively certain that 4e remains the most popular game even for the enthusiast audience.
*shucking shotgun*
We doan use the 4E word around here, stranger...*over shoulder*
Zeke! Get up here! We got us a stranger what needs killin' to death!
I suspect that 4e is FAR, FAR out in the lead, especially in sales.
Zeke! Got us another one! Theys hoppin' about lahk ticks!
Reckless looks at his tags.
Zeke, y'all know me, Ah bin here longer'n dat fella what's doin' all the yellin' and ya KNOW Ah ain't ownin' none of dem dere 4e buks. Ahs jus' sayin', is all.
Zeke, you can call off th'dogs on this feller. Seems alright if he h'aint been reedin' them thar hee-retee-cull 4E buks. But let's kill tha' other fella! He looks lahk a Hasbro simpathizzer.
An' we doan cotton to no simpeethizzers 'roun these parts! Reckless, you better come'on over to this side of the porch. Zeke ain't as accurate as he usta be. Grab yursel' a beer and a shotgun, if you want some targit praktiss.
<pulls back the charging handle on his m249.>
4e 4e 4e
hehehe....superiority through higher sales margin.
all kidding aside:
get together, drink beer, role dice. (in whatever game strikes your fancy)
<pulls back the charging handle on his m249.>
4e 4e 4e
hehehe....superiority through higher sales margin.
all kidding aside:
get together, drink beer, role dice. (in whatever game strikes your fancy)
Wha' that shor iz a pretty little toy you got there... got two of 'em mahself, all chromed up and mounted as hood orniments on mah truck...
That'd be the truck over yonder pointed in your gen'ral direction, friend. :)You have yur'self a nice day now, h'ear?
Kidding aside - I'm a gamer first and version X loyalist somewhere about 10 slots down the list. I give a thumbs-up to anyone who games regardless of specific brand.
you mean the truck that i planted c4 on last night?
!!!!!KAAAA BOOOOOMMMMMMmmmmm!!!!!
i have always hated chevys.
you mean the truck that i planted c4 on last night?
!!!!!KAAAA BOOOOOMMMMMMmmmmm!!!!!
i have always hated chevys.
Nope, Ah drive a FERD!
That was Zeke's Chevy... woah, doggie you done pissed him off sum'tin fierce right now!
Zeke, you tell Imelda to put away that .50 cal sniping rifle... that's not sportsman-like!
you hear that? the silence? thats the sound of a hellfire being fired from a predator. if your gonna shoot, you have about 30 seconds from getting it done. but even so, hellfires dont often miss, and i am not that concerned about collateral damage. and the rest of my team is in the tree line.....its a pretty big group, we all play 4e.
well, its been fun, but i have homework to do.
I think white wolfs' relaunch of the WOD was not nearly as successful as they thought it would be.
I still play oWoD every few months but the new stuff just doesn't hold my interest. I purchased the ancient Rome books and I felt like it was sort of hollow once I read through it all.
In that regard, nWoD is similar to D&D4 to me: both are surely interesting and fun games, but they failed to captivate me like their predecessors did. I judged them both from knowing not really much, but I did not like what I saw, and I won´t invest a lot of money into something that failed to hold my interest on first sight.
Stefan
In my experience, though 4E outstrips its competition by a sizable margin, this is primarily due to new blood; when they launched 4E, WotC specifically targeted younger gamers, more familiar with console and online gaming than tabletop. They have been successful in bringing a fair number of individuals from this demographic into the hobby. Those that disliked 4E will often say that WotC opted to pursue quantity over quality. If this is true or not is something to be determined on an individual basis, but even if it is true, the fact remains that such a decision is a valid business strategy. One that, if it was their intent, WotC had the resources and manpower to successfully accomplish.
Alternatively, though a fair number of WotC's existing gamers switched to 4E when it was launched, over time many have returned to playing 3.5. A growing number of these, along with those that stuck with 3.5 all along, seem to be switching to Pathfinder as time passes.
It's also important to note, however, that sales figures alone are not accurate indicators of a game's success; the same new gamers that WotC attracted are more likely to leave the hobby, for any number of reasons, but continue to purchase material in the hopes of playing again at another time. In several areas I'm familiar with of, this has resulted in a situation where 4E continues to sell well, but no one in the area is actually playing the game. At the same time Pathfinder, a game that no local retailers can move, is being played regularly at multiple locations.
I think white wolfs' relaunch of the WOD was not nearly as successful as they thought it would be.
I still play oWoD every few months but the new stuff just doesn't hold my interest. I purchased the ancient Rome books and I felt like it was sort of hollow once I read through it all.
I think it did quite well (though I don't really have any evidence, it's just based how they talked about it after launch).
I think one of the reasons it's fifth is because its oldest game on the list and hence in the mature part of it's life-cycle. IIRC it come out in '04, and they haven't even released any revised editions of the WOD books (though they have done second printings where some typos were fixed and what not). The way the gaming marketplace is now a days, thats a lengthy chunk of time to go without at least releasing revised core books.
I'd say most previous editions of D&D compare favorably to 4E, and PFRPG nutpunches 4E pretty firmly. Just create a character in each and tell me I'm wrong.
You're wrong.
System vs. system there really isn't much comparison.I'd say most previous editions of D&D compare favorably to 4E, and PFRPG nutpunches 4E pretty firmly. Just create a character in each and tell me I'm wrong.
Let's not be silly, hm? Both are great games with great companies behind them, and both have found a strong place in the current tabletop market.
System vs. system there really isn't much comparison.I'd say most previous editions of D&D compare favorably to 4E, and PFRPG nutpunches 4E pretty firmly. Just create a character in each and tell me I'm wrong.Let's not be silly, hm? Both are great games with great companies behind them, and both have found a strong place in the current tabletop market.
Can we avoid hyperbole on both sides before this becomes a flamefest?
I never understood the whole getting up in arms about 4E or PFRPG. They are like two ladies, 4E with a pair of Cs, and PFRPG with a pair of Bs. Both look and feel a bit different, but they are both fun to play with.
I think 4E was modeled after the popularity of card games (magic the gathering, etc.), versus console or computer games, just for the fact of the conditions that constantly change throughout combat. It is easy to correlate any roleplaying game to an online game of the same genre. Since they are all governed by rules to simulate a ficticious setting.
I do believe if you played previous editions and liked them, then there is no compeling reason to switch. Especially if you have purchased prior material. But it is my experience, with the people I play with during encounter nights, etc. that the majority have played previous editions, and enjoy playing 4E as well. But I expect people that play 3.5 or pathfinder society, etc. would state their experience shows the opposite trend. That is to be expected, because players will support the game that fits their preferences.
I can't speak of percentages of the former or the later, but does it really matter? Shrug.
It all depends on what you like and the people you play with.
I never understood the whole getting up in arms about 4E or PFRPG. They are like two ladies, 4E with a pair of Cs, and PFRPG with a pair of Bs. Both look and feel a bit different, but they are both fun to play with.
I don't quite understand this metaphor. Do you have a diagram that might help explain it? Or even better, a bunch of diagrams?
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I never understood the whole getting up in arms about 4E or PFRPG. They are like two ladies, 4E with a pair of Cs, and PFRPG with a pair of Bs. Both look and feel a bit different, but they are both fun to play with.I don't quite understand this metaphor. Do you have a diagram that might help explain it? Or even better, a bunch of diagrams?
Yes, I too am confused and could use some graphical aids to help clarify this.
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I never understood the whole getting up in arms about 4E or PFRPG. They are like two ladies, 4E with a pair of Cs, and PFRPG with a pair of Bs. Both look and feel a bit different, but they are both fun to play with.I don't quite understand this metaphor. Do you have a diagram that might help explain it? Or even better, a bunch of diagrams?
since its talking about look and feel... might need more than diagrams...
Well not quite exactly a diagram but enjoy this picture from a while back:
http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/2009/february/v5748dyo5l9v4&source=search
I never understood the whole getting up in arms about 4E or PFRPG. They are like two ladies, 4E with a pair of Cs, and PFRPG with a pair of Bs. Both look and feel a bit different, but they are both fun to play with.I don't quite understand this metaphor. Do you have a diagram that might help explain it? Or even better, a bunch of diagrams?
Personally I thought our beloved hobby was all about D's and more D's. I don't know what this C & B stuff is all about... :P