I'd urge those who are rambling inaccurately about how the Mystic Theurge is rolling in spells to actually run the math on spells per day on a MT vs. a single caster. Particularly for levels 1-10, but even later.oops, someone did and the MT got more spells. ;-)If you take out 0 level spells - they don't get any more than a straight sorcerer by level 10.
I'm guessing those numbers become less favorable for the MT at lower levels.
if you remove 0 lvl spells at 10 lvl:
Taking a straight 10th lvle character, these are the total spells per day:bard 13
cleric 16 (+5 domain)
druid 16
sorcerer 20
Wizard 16
10th level ? 3/? 3/Mystic Theurge 4, which makes each class have 7th lvl access:
Bard: 8
Cleric: 10 (+4 Domains)
Druid: 10
Sorcerer: 10
Wizard: 10
EX: Wizard 3/ Cleric 3/ Mystic THeurge 4: 20 spells per day (+4 Domains)
that is not including 0 lvl spells.
so at that point, removing 0 lvl spells just makes sorcerers equal if you had done a druid/wizard or druid/sorcerer.
and sorcerers would have more spells verse druid/bard combo, and less spells with a cleric/sorcerer, cleric/wizard, cleric/bard.
that is the base number of spells per day totaled minus 0 lvl spells.
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Agreed. Pathfinder Bards are tough. The ability to maintain inspire courage as a free action really changes the dynamics. (Nevermind the ability to start it with less than a standard action as you advance)I fully agree with the "start it with less than a standard action" - that's really great for bards. However, the maintain as a free action is nothing new - been that way for inspire courage (and *most* bardic abilities) since 3.0.
You're kind of splitting hairs. It was a free action but it prevented you from using any other magic at all. Alternately you could stop singing and let the effects linger for 4 rounds.
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I have to agree on the comments regarding the Witch. From what I can see, it is a fantastic class. I know in my future campaigns there will be no NPC mystic theurges...only Witches.
And I love the whole idea of a goat familiar!
I wish the goat and pig had better spell lists, they would be really fun to play but I don't see them getting a lot of screen time with those spell lists. I suppose the pig might be interesting if you were to try and make a witch who goes into combat.
Would a witches familiar still gain spells if you multi classed into eldritch knight :)
One thing I think people aren't mentioning with Mystic Theurge is statistical bonuses.
Wizard and cleric both have a single stat they need to raise that brings up their number of bonus spells.
Mystic Theurge can't just focus fully on a single stat, however. Well, I suppose he could, but he's not much of a Mystic Theurge at that point.
One thing I think people aren't mentioning with Mystic Theurge is statistical bonuses.
Wizard and cleric both have a single stat they need to raise that brings up their number of bonus spells.
Mystic Theurge can't just focus fully on a single stat, however. Well, I suppose he could, but he's not much of a Mystic Theurge at that point.
Well you could play a sorc/oracle/MT have CHA as your primary stat that hits both classes as prime but you'd be the worst MT in near history entering at 9th level with 2nd level spells XD
You know the MT could use a slightly better capstone ability
like
10th level MT +2 to arcane +2 to divine caster levels
Or
10th level MT +3 to one of your caster levels +1 to the other.
People also tend to forget that Mystic Theurge is only 10 levels long, meaning at level 16 you need to start taking single-level classes again.
This means that not only are you 1-2 spell levels behind, but you'll never get the 8th and 9th level spells from one of your classes (or never get the 9th level spells from both classes).
Basically, at level 17 when a single-class arcane caster can cast gate to get all the cleric spells he wants, the MT is making a choice about which class they'd like to take that gets them halfway to 8th level spells and beyond and which class they sacrifice.
Basically, the MT concept works around level 13-16. Earlier or later, a single-classed caster is embarrassingly better and more versatile. MT's only ever worked with cheese like the Ur-priest and the Sublime Chord, and even then if you didn't have to play through the awkward levels.
One thing I think people aren't mentioning with Mystic Theurge is statistical bonuses.Well you could play a sorc/oracle/MT have CHA as your primary stat that hits both classes as prime but you'd be the worst MT in near history entering at 9th level with 2nd level spells XD
A previous thread (about a month ago) discussed this option, it's even worse, as the one level delay in higher level spells means you have to be 10th level (Sor4/Ora4/MT2) before you see 3rd level spells. Plus it kills the main feature of the MT, which is versatility.
IIRC level 10 is the tipping point in this regard, where they MT gets 'more spells'. I.e. this is where the payoff BEGINS.Even after the breakpoint, the "extra spells" you get is illusionary. Check this out:
<snippage>
(note: the MT in your example should have 6 4th level spells (not 4), though I doubt he'd have the INT/WIS to get bonus 4th level spells - magic items would make this more likely, I suppose. So the MT should have more 4th level spells than the wizard in your example. It skews better for the wizard at 11th level - 6th level spells).
I agree that the the higher level spells are generally more valuable than many more lower level spells, there are a LOT of really useful 2nd and 3rd level spells. So if you want to play god wizard/blaster, yeah, a straight caster is the way to go. If you want to be utility mage, MT can do that very well because they do, in fact, have more spell slots (not to mention two separate lists to draw from).
And yeah, the MT has no business throwing out spells that have DCs to save against, thanks to lower level spells and two spellcasting attributes (meaning both are probably a full +1 lower than a single class caster).
I think it behooves a MT to take Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus because of this, though I'd have to take a long look at spell lists before choosing which school to focus in for maximum effectiveness.
Anyways, my point is that around 10th level the MT can finally say "Thank goodness the hurting is over!" because he now has a bucketfull of 3rd and 4th level spells to play with. Are an extra 5 3rd level spells and extra 2 4th level spells worth 4 5th level spells? Maybe not, but it's not a no-brainer of a decision. A clever player that rocks a straight caster could be a monster of a MT.
I don't want to sidetrack the (remarkably civil) discussion, but for anyone looking for a house rule to allow more "blasty" type Mystic Theurges a bit easier, you can check out this Feat.
When used in conjunction with Magic Rating it gives a MT decent save DCs, without wrecking the balance with a single class caster. (I think anyhow).
WRT the witch, would it be unbalanced in any way to swap out the spell lists? IE, let the player have a goat or a pig, but pick a spell list from one of the other familiars instead?
Of course, what I would prefer would be to make the goat and pig spell lists the most awesome!
Ken
No, there isn't really anything unbalanced about that. If there is, it shouldn't be. The variety of familiar is purely flavor, the spell-list gained should be the only thing that matters in terms of balance.
A previous thread (about a month ago) discussed this option, it's even worse, as the one level delay in higher level spells means you have to be 10th level (Sor4/Ora4/MT2) before you see 3rd level spells. Plus it kills the main feature of the MT, which is versatility.One thing I think people aren't mentioning with Mystic Theurge is statistical bonuses.Well you could play a sorc/oracle/MT have CHA as your primary stat that hits both classes as prime but you'd be the worst MT in near history entering at 9th level with 2nd level spells XD
so what your saying is
you'd be the worst MT in near history entering at 9th level with 2nd level spells XD
Has anyone considered playing the MT slightly differently
I mean any time somone wants to add a PrC they look for the fasetest way to enter it becuase its pretty much always better to take earlier than later.
Now MT's tend to really suck around 5-7 and hit their stride 13-16
what if you did MT progression like this
e.g.
Cleric 1-7 then Wiz 1-3 then MT 1-10
which means 1-7 your solid, 8-11 your verstaility increases but your starting to lag behind your peers, BUT you can cast still 4th level cleric spells and around these levels metamagic rods can keep your 3rd and 4th level spells up to snuff.
Sure you wizard spells are going to lag too far behind to be combat effective but there are many wiz utility spells which are effective and thier DC's etc won't come into play.
By the same token
Wizard 1-7 , Cleric 1-3 and then MT 1-10
4th level wiz spells are nothign to sneer at and most people keep firing off 3rd and 4th level spells around the 8-12th level range
If you want the MT flavour early on
Wizard 1
Cleric 1
Wizard 2-7
Cleric 2-3
MT 1-10
get arcane and divine spells from 2nd level plus the base domain and school abilites
Going one step further
Go cleric or wizard 1-9 giving you 5th level spells then throw in the 1-3 of the other and then 1-8 to finsih off your MT
So from levels 9 to 13 your stuck with 5th level spells but hey they're 5th level spells
14th level 6th level spells
16th level 7th level spells
18th level 8th level spells
20th level 9th level spells
ANyone tried it this way ?
Given the amount of campaigns that go beyond 15th level is in the microscopic it's not a big deal. There is some published material on extending 10-level prestige classes that can be used as a guideline it basically works out to continue things that advance in a regular pattern.People also tend to forget that Mystic Theurge is only 10 levels long, meaning at level 16 you need to start taking single-level classes again.
But it is one more issue making MTs terrible.
The list:
1. Before 10th, actually fewer spells.
2. After 16th, no core prestige classes to continue dual advancement.
3. At all levels, 1-2 spell levels behind (and at least 1-2 DC behind for your best offensive spells).
4. Since you are using two casting stats, chances are low that you'll have bonus spells for higher-level spell levels and high that your DCs across the board will be lower.
5. Actual number of spells on a MT is deceptive considering that Domain spells aren't that good, it's unlikely you'll have high-end bonus spells, pound for pound Cleric spells are worse that Wizard spells, and cantrips are so worthless than Pathfinder Sorcerers can cast unlimited numbers per day.
We don't even need to talk about the fact bigger slots removes the need for masses of low-level slots. I mean, it doesn't matter that the MT has so many slots he can cast Bear's Endurance on the whole party, because the Wizard can cast Mass Bear's Endurance.
The thing is, you need to look at all these factors when you chose to go Mystic Theurge. I mean, chances are good that you'll just be a Cure battery for people that don't want to exercise tactics anyway and want to melee with closet trolls, so trying to emphasize "versatility" and your role as a utility caster is disingenuous at best.
I'm not saying that a skill player can't do it, or can't be the most useful player in a party of warrior-types. I am saying that people are going to take Leadership and have Henchmen that are better and more useful casters than you.
Has anyone considered playing the MT slightly differently
I mean any time somone wants to add a PrC they look for the fasetest way to enter it becuase its pretty much always better to take earlier than later.
Now MT's tend to really suck around 5-7 and hit their stride 13-16
what if you did MT progression like this
e.g.
Cleric 1-7 then Wiz 1-3 then MT 1-10
which means 1-7 your solid, 8-11 your verstaility increases but your starting to lag behind your peers, BUT you can cast still 4th level cleric spells and around these levels metamagic rods can keep your 3rd and 4th level spells up to snuff.
Sure you wizard spells are going to lag too far behind to be combat effective but there are many wiz utility spells which are effective and thier DC's etc won't come into play.
By the same token
Wizard 1-7 , Cleric 1-3 and then MT 1-10
4th level wiz spells are nothign to sneer at and most people keep firing off 3rd and 4th level spells around the 8-12th level range
If you want the MT flavour early on
Wizard 1
Cleric 1
Wizard 2-7
Cleric 2-3
MT 1-10get arcane and divine spells from 2nd level plus the base domain and school abilites
Going one step further
Go cleric or wizard 1-9 giving you 5th level spells then throw in the 1-3 of the other and then 1-8 to finsih off your MT
So from levels 9 to 13 your stuck with 5th level spells but hey they're 5th level spells
14th level 6th level spells
16th level 7th level spells
18th level 8th level spells
20th level 9th level spellsANyone tried it this way ?
I once arrived at a similar point (cleric 6 to 8 I think), with an OK Int score, and found a spellbook and thought about going wizard for three levels, then MT. But when I compared the level 4 or 5 goodies, I just couldn't resign myself to take a level of wizard, then another... So I let it go.
As I look at the spells you consider strong below, I realize we are not discussing the same subject.Clerics are not Wizards, and should not be played as such. Wizards do their thing, and Clerics do an entirely different thing. What makes the Druid list weak is that is uses Cleric-level powered spells and does Wizard-like things.
And it absolutly blows my mind you do not consider Hold Person an A-list spell...
Hold Person was good in AD&D 2 and average in 3.0. Since 3.5 it's generaly not worth memorizing. 70+% of opponents being immune keeps it from A-list in any iteration of DnD 3.
Hold Person was good in AD&D 2 and average in 3.0. Since 3.5 it's generaly not worth memorizing. 70+% of opponents being immune keeps it from A-list in any iteration of DnD 3.
Perhaps not a über spell, but I'm not sure how you came up with 70+% of opponents being immune. Let me point out that the spell now targets any humanoid creature. That includes trolls, ogres and giants. Trolls and ogres usually don't have good will saves. Sure "each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect.", but this is a full-round action.
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Cleric 1-7 then Wiz 1-3 then MT 1-10
You a 7th level cleric with a (very) few low level wizard spells in a party of 8th/ 9th/ 10th level characters. Then you are an 8th level cleric in an 11th level party with a few wizard tricks. Regardless of where it comes into play those lost levels are going to hurt.
It would be better if you lost the levels after you were in the prestige class. Requiring 3rd level spells in one class and 1st level spells in the other then losing a level of casting in one class at 4th level MT, and one at 9th level. You would be the same distance behind at 9th level MT but it would hurt far less to enter the class and the first few levels would be much less painful.
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I played a mystic-theurge (3.5 Grey Elf Cloistered cleric 3 Wizard 3, Mystic-Theurge 4) in a Ptolus campaign. We were playing in a game store and the group size changed week by week. When I was the only spell caster there, the versatility was great. When the players who had single classed spell casters there I wasn’t quite as useful. I used the Practiced spell caster feat to boost my caster level for both classes up to my hit dice. I lagged in spells per day, and didn’t have the sheer stopping power that the single classed casters had.
I found that for my character (perhaps my own bad luck) it was better to use spells that relied upon saves rather then touch attacks.
I also found that the use of boosting spells to be an excellent option. I used Haste, Recitation, Slow, Bless, and Bane. This combination gave the party a huge advantage in a fight. I also used my raven familiar to deliver cure spells.
For feats I focused on Practiced spell caster x2, Spell penetration and greater spell penetration, and I planned to get the feat craft wondrous item.
I also have a Pathfinder Society Organized play character called Fatum Aedituus Venificus, who is a Cleric of Pharasma 3/ Wizard (specialist Necromancer) 2. The questions as to weather the character is viable is a good one. My character concept was a ying and yang one. In order to fully understand life, one must also understand death.
I picked the domains Healing and Repose. He channels positive energy, and has the Turn Undead feat. He can also channel negative energy to Command undead as well because of his levels in Wizard (necromancer). I also picked the Arcane Bond class feature instead of having a familiar.
I have found the character very useful so far. In Tiers 1-2 he has been very useful, now at tier 3 I am finding him useful as well. I have yet to play him in a 5th level game, I think he will be useful.
With Pathfinder organized play the spell knack character trait isn’t allowed. I am finding with my class-based abilities, when I reach 4th level in both classes, their abilities will notch up. For example my rebuke death ability from the healing domain heals 1d4+1, the +1 is ½ caster level. Don’t get me wrong, I am not complaining. I realize that I will have to make some real sacrifices to go into mystic theurge. All of my class-based things will be at 3rd level, my spells per day will advance but they will be 3 levels behind my characters level. For example at sixth level, I will have 3 levels in cleric and 3 levels in wizard. And at seventh level I will have the spells per day and caster level of a 4th level cleric and a 4th level wizard.
Now the flexibility of casting spells from both the cleric and wizard class lists is impressive. It gives me access to almost every spell in the game. I’m spending all of my characters cash on purchasing all of the 1st level arcane scrolls I can get my hands on. I will do the same when I get access to 2nd level spells at sixth level.
So I am not sure how viable my character will be if he plays at his level. However, there have been plenty of games, where there is no spell caster. It’s nice to fill both rolls. There have been other games where there is no front line fighter class. We were all mages monks, rogues and myself. We burned through summon monster spells to create a front line.
I can say the Channel positive energy is very useful. I have seven uses of it per day, and I heal 2d6 points. I have also taken the selective channeling feat. However I realize it will not get any better.
I’m beginning to repeat myself.
I guess I should sum up my thoughts. I think the Mystic Theurge is an excellent character concept for my character, a follower of Pharasma. I think it would work for follower of Nethys as well.
I have found him effective when playing in scenarios for level 1 to 3. I don’t know how he will be for levels 5-6.
I do have one quick question. Once my character picks up the spell Spectral hand, I know that I will be able to cast Cure light wounds and Cure moderate wounds through the spell. Will I be able to use my Domain abilities Rebuke Death, and Gentle Rest and the Necromancer ability Gentle Rest through the spectral hand spell?
Thank you
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I played a mystic-theurge (3.5 Grey Elf Cloistered cleric 3 Wizard 3, Mystic-Theurge 4) in a Ptolus campaign. We were playing in a game store and the group size changed week by week. When I was the only spell caster there, the versatility was great. When the players who had single classed spell casters there I wasn’t quite as useful. I used the Practiced spell caster feat to boost my caster level for both classes up to my hit dice. I lagged in spells per day, and didn’t have the sheer stopping power that the single classed casters had.
I found that for my character (perhaps my own bad luck) it was better to use spells that relied upon saves rather then touch attacks.
I also found that the use of boosting spells to be an excellent option. I used Haste, Recitation, Slow, Bless, and Bane. This combination gave the party a huge advantage in a fight. I also used my raven familiar to deliver cure spells.
For feats I focused on Practiced spell caster x2, Spell penetration and greater spell penetration, and I planned to get the feat craft wondrous item.I also have a Pathfinder Society Organized play character called Fatum Aedituus Venificus, who is a Cleric of Pharasma 3/ Wizard (specialist Necromancer) 2. The questions as to weather the character is viable is a good one. My character concept was a ying and yang one. In order to fully understand life, one must also understand death.
I picked the domains Healing and Repose. He channels positive energy, and has the Turn Undead feat. He can also channel negative energy to Command undead as well because of his levels in Wizard (necromancer). I also picked the Arcane Bond class feature instead of having a familiar.
I have found the character very useful so far. In Tiers 1-2 he has been very useful, now at tier 3 I am finding him useful as well. I have yet to play him in a 5th level game, I think he will be useful.
With Pathfinder organized play the spell knack character trait isn’t allowed. I am finding with my class-based abilities, when I reach 4th...
I think you are in the levels where multiple classes are not a burden yet. It's from 5-9 where a MT should encounter their problems. Also keep in mind if your DM is not using CR as a guideline on encounter difficulty, then your results will not match the expected results, for better and for worse.