Greater Grapple feat, grappled and pinned in the same round?


Rules Questions


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Hello.
A friend is playing a monk that uses the grapple maneouver.

I have doubts with the "Greater Grapple" feat.

Scenario: The monk with Greater Grapple is adjacent (or 5ft away) to a foe.
The monk moves 5 feet if necessary. Then uses the standard action to grapple the foe, succesfully. Can he use the move action to make the check to maintain the grapple in that round and harm/pin/move the foe?

The feat allows you to make two grapple checks in the same round, but I don't know if I should allow the monk to do a check in a round when the check is not usually done... and what consequences it would bring.

Thanks in advance

Liberty's Edge

PRD wrote:

Greater Grapple (Combat)

Maintaining a grapple is second nature to you.

Prerequisites: Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +6, Dex 13.

Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Grapple. Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.

Normal: Maintaining a grapple is a standard action.

RAW, it's not clear. Go with your gut, that's your job as DM.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

4 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required. 24 people marked this as a favorite.

With Greater Grapple, making a grapple check is a move action only once you grapple a creature.

So if you take a standard action to grapple a foe, and still have a move action in the round because you haven't moved or taken out a potion or opened a door or something like that, you can indeed make an attempt to pin the foe as that move action.

The monk's tactics are pretty much exactly the way Greater Grapple is intended to work. If that feels overpowered, remember that in order to even qualify for Greater Grapple, you need that base attack bonus of +6. A single-classed monk can't get this feat until 9th level (since that's the first level he has a BAB of +6 and can pick a feat. By 9th level, his wizard friend can teleport and his cleric friend can raise the dead.

Liberty's Edge

James Jacobs wrote:

With Greater Grapple, making a grapple check is a move action only once you grapple a creature.

So if you take a standard action to grapple a foe, and still have a move action in the round because you haven't moved or taken out a potion or opened a door or something like that, you can indeed make an attempt to pin the foe as that move action.

The monk's tactics are pretty much exactly the way Greater Grapple is intended to work. If that feels overpowered, remember that in order to even qualify for Greater Grapple, you need that base attack bonus of +6. A single-classed monk can't get this feat until 9th level (since that's the first level he has a BAB of +6 and can pick a feat. By 9th level, his wizard friend can teleport and his cleric friend can raise the dead.

So if you can maintain as a move action after the initial grapple, i'm assuming that means that a full attack action can be taken?


A full attack requires a full round action. If you use your move action to pin your foe, you cannot take a full round action. You can take a standard action, free actions and likely a swift action. So your monk can (in subsequent rounds) maintain the pin with his move action and then make a single standard action attack (likely an unarmed strike of some sort).

Liberty's Edge

Mauril wrote:
A full attack requires a full round action. If you use your move action to pin your foe, you cannot take a full round action. You can take a standard action, free actions and likely a swift action. So your monk can (in subsequent rounds) maintain the pin with his move action and then make a single standard action attack (likely an unarmed strike of some sort).

I was under the impression that a full attack using all iterative attacks was considered a standard action and could be combined with a move action...did I just pull this out of my ass or was it somewhere in previous editions?

Jon Brazer Enterprises

Xpltvdeleted wrote:
Mauril wrote:
A full attack requires a full round action. If you use your move action to pin your foe, you cannot take a full round action. You can take a standard action, free actions and likely a swift action. So your monk can (in subsequent rounds) maintain the pin with his move action and then make a single standard action attack (likely an unarmed strike of some sort).
I was under the impression that a full attack using all iterative attacks was considered a standard action and could be combined with a move action...did I just pull this out of my ass or was it somewhere in previous editions?

A full attack has required a full-round action for all of 3rd edition. In 1st and 2nd edition, Fighters (and subclassed Fighters like Rangers and Paladins) always got their extra attacks.


It's the first item in the "Full Round Actions" section of the Combat chapter in the core book. The "no full attacking while moving" thing is the reason the Vital Strike feats exist.

Liberty's Edge

So apparently I did just pull it outta my ass since I never played 1st or 2nd edition...how the hell I came to that conclusion I will never know.


It's actually a fairly common mistake, especially if your group doesn't contain a resident "rules lawyer" like me. It's a huge tome of rules, missing some things here and there (even relatively common things) is going to happen.

I mean, I just discovered that charges don't provoke attacks of opportunity.


James Jacobs wrote:

With Greater Grapple, making a grapple check is a move action only once you grapple a creature.

So if you take a standard action to grapple a foe, and still have a move action in the round because you haven't moved or taken out a potion or opened a door or something like that, you can indeed make an attempt to pin the foe as that move action.

The monk's tactics are pretty much exactly the way Greater Grapple is intended to work. If that feels overpowered, remember that in order to even qualify for Greater Grapple, you need that base attack bonus of +6. A single-classed monk can't get this feat until 9th level (since that's the first level he has a BAB of +6 and can pick a feat. By 9th level, his wizard friend can teleport and his cleric friend can raise the dead.

Many thanks, will try it !


Mauril wrote:

It's actually a fairly common mistake, especially if your group doesn't contain a resident "rules lawyer" like me. It's a huge tome of rules, missing some things here and there (even relatively common things) is going to happen.

I mean, I just discovered that charges don't provoke attacks of opportunity.

The charge itself does not but the movement might. Was that you in the other thread?


Mauril wrote:
I mean, I just discovered that charges don't provoke attacks of opportunity.

Sorry for the threadjack - but just as you mentioned it, I noticed it too - and immediately thought: isn't that a silly rule? I mean, instead of using a full retreat to get out of a huddle (and potentially provoking several AoO), you could just say, "I'll charge that tree over there" and be fine.


PathfinderEspañol wrote:
The feat allows you to make two grapple checks in the same round, but I don't know if I should allow the monk to do a check in a round when the check is not usually done... and what consequences it would bring.

My two cents: it allows you to maintain a grapple as a move action, but that doesn't help you during the first round (where you're not maintaining the grapple).


Cpt. Caboodle wrote:
Mauril wrote:
I mean, I just discovered that charges don't provoke attacks of opportunity.
Sorry for the threadjack - but just as you mentioned it, I noticed it too - and immediately thought: isn't that a silly rule? I mean, instead of using a full retreat to get out of a huddle (and potentially provoking several AoO), you could just say, "I'll charge that tree over there" and be fine.

Folks getting confused with this are missing an important note in the AoO chart:

PRD wrote:
Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square, you usually provoke an attack of opportunity. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an attack of opportunity.

The action "Charge" does not provoke an AoO. Your movement, however, still provokes as normal.


Yeah. The footnote clarifies that. The attack doesn't provoke, just the movement. Either way, the point I was trying to make still stands. I've read through the core book a half dozen times, cover to cover, and I still get surprised by stuff.


erian_7 wrote:

Folks getting confused with this are missing an important note in the AoO chart:

PRD wrote:
Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square, you usually provoke an attack of opportunity. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an attack of opportunity.
The action "Charge" does not provoke an AoO. Your movement, however, still provokes as normal.

Ah, I missed that, and thus got confused. So now it makes sense again. You charge an enemy, you provoke AoO from everyone you meet underway, just like full retreat.

Thanks for clearing that up.

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