Combat Training (Trained for War) for Animals and Armor


Rules Questions


OK,

First off, I did find THIS. So as I understand it Handle Animal is the skill I need to train an animal for war. And under Animals in the Bestiary on page 307 it states no animal is proficient with armor (barding) unless trained for war.

So can I have any animal get Combat Training and thus they can be taught to wear armor? It sounds as if they get all three armor feats included in the training when it is applied to horses. Every comment I can find hints that this only applies to mounts being ridden in battle, but it does not really state clearly that it could not be applied to a larger animal such as a boar, dog, or bear that are not mounts.

So here are the rules questions.

1. Can all animals that have received Combat Training wear barding?
2. Can only mounts wear barding?
3. What feats if any are included in the training or does the animal have to spend feat slots to be allowed to wear the armor?

I looks forward to everyone's feedback and thoughts.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Great questions Thazar, I have no answers.

I'm bumping this thread because I have the exact same questions.

The Exchange

Same here. I'd like to see the Combat Training rules cleaned up a lot, specifically so that they clearly indicate how they interact with something other than a horse as well as interaction with feats and armor training etc.


My turn to bump.

Not only is there the thread that Thazar linked to earlier, but there are these:

Horse Questions

Barding and Armor Prof.

Mount Questions....

And I'll add my own questions:

1) a) Is Combat Training the only training "for war?"
b) Can Fighting count as being trained "for war?"

And I'd like to reiterate the question "does the animal have to spend feats to be proficient in armor, if trained for war?"

For the curious, the reason I ask is that I am thinking of a character concept the includes dogs in barding. The standard, small classification dog. Combat Training is for "combat riding," and I'd rather not have to train the small dog how to be ridden.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I still come to this post everyday waiting for an answer.

I need to decide between horse and wolf for my ranger's animal companion.

Silver Crusade

I see no reason that the rules prohibit any animal from being war-trained, provided it meets the INT requirement. If it does not, it will have to take Armor Proficiencies as Feats, one by one.

--No animal has armor proficiency unless combat trained. [animal description] Makes sense, sorta like a wizard. There is no prohibition that they couldn't later, if gaining Hit Dice, take it as a Feat, though.

--Combat Training can be used with any animal [handle animal skill] with INT score of 2 or greater.
Since it gives more than 3 tricks, animal must have INT of 2 or above. Read in context with the entirety of the skill, there is no "restriction" that combat training can't be used with any animal that has the INT score. Rather, I can only assume the writers unintentionally created confusion by referencing common animals trained in this skill that have been historically "combat trained." Since you could individually train ANY animal with the same skills that this overall training provides, a dash of common sense solves the problem. Your next problem would be finding someone capable of crafting barding for a non-traditional animal.

--If trained with Combat Training, animal becomes proficient in ALL armor. [handle animal skill] By default, since armor proficiency is a feat, this would "grant" feats much like a player gets when playing a fighter at no extra cost.

--If trained to "Fight", there is no provision that the animal becomes trained in armor. This is for your dumber animals (INT 1). They'll have to take proficiencies one-by-one as feats.

Finally, if my perspective does not sway you, just erase one line in your books and play the game as you wish with no confusion!

I do have one remaining discrepancy of my own - combat trained says they learn "attack," but to attack unnatural things (like undead), the trick normally requires 2 slots. Not sure whether a combat trained animal gets the full or regular version of attack. I'm inclined to think it's the complete package.

Scarab Sages

One thing to keep in mind is that, even without proficiency, a mount could still wear padded, leather, or masterwork studded leather barding with no penalty (since all of those have an ACP of 0).


M P 433 wrote:
--If trained with Combat Training, animal becomes proficient in ALL armor. [handle animal skill] By default, since armor proficiency is a feat, this would "grant" feats much like a player gets when playing a fighter at no extra cost.

Are you sure about this? Several people have looked over the rules and have seen no mention of this.

M P 433 wrote:
--If trained to "Fight", there is no provision that the animal becomes trained in armor. This is for your dumber animals (INT 1). They'll have to take proficiencies one-by-one as feats.

This could also be for the animals that people do not wish to ride into combat, which is what the Combat Trained option is for.

Silver Crusade

Disenchanter wrote:
M P 433 wrote:
--If trained with Combat Training, animal becomes proficient in ALL armor. [handle animal skill] By default, since armor proficiency is a feat, this would "grant" feats much like a player gets when playing a fighter at no extra cost.

Are you sure about this? Several people have looked over the rules and have seen no mention of this.

M P 433 wrote:
--If trained to "Fight", there is no provision that the animal becomes trained in armor. This is for your dumber animals (INT 1). They'll have to take proficiencies one-by-one as feats.
This could also be for the animals that people do not wish to ride into combat, which is what the Combat Trained option is for.

I feel the armor proficiency thing is moot. Whether you call it a feat or an aspect of the training, they get it.

Handle Animal applies to all animals; I'm reading it as a whole, and if there's some part that doesn't jive with the rest (like Combat Training appearing to apply only to things that can be ridden), then we should assume that part was not meant to say something that does not jive with the rest. It's a staple of interpretation of the law so we don't achieve absurd results. There's no reason a bear (with INT 2) couldn't be trained to fight and be accustomed to armor, assuming you could find someone skilled enough to make war bear armor.

Anyhoo, I get the impression folks just want to make sure if there's a subsequent edition someday (in the FAR future), matters are laid out more clearly, and that's not a bad objective.


If combat training allows animals to wear armor, and animal companions can become combat trained, 1. why do they have feats for it? 2. What happens when you raise your animal companion's int to 3, does he lose the ability to wear armor?

Grand Lodge

Just bumping this to maybe get an answer to the combat training and what armor/barding a creature can where. Also does it cost one or more feats for an animal or an animal companion for that matter.


From the PRD (Creature Types):

Quote:
ANIMAL: Proficient with no armor unless trained for war.

Accordingly, a combat trained animal gains armor proficiency (the text does not say to what degree).


Nemesis_Rex wrote:

From the PRD (Creature Types):

Quote:
ANIMAL: Proficient with no armor unless trained for war.
Accordingly, a combat trained animal gains armor proficiency (the text does not say to what degree).

It could also be interpreted as "animals can't take proficiency as feats unless trained for war".

Sovereign Court

The SRD and Core Rulebook differ on this. I couldn't get an official answer from JJ last time I asked; I was told it would be clarified at a later date. Will try and find the thread where we discussed it...


This:

M P 433 wrote:
I do have one remaining discrepancy of my own - combat trained says they learn "attack," but to attack unnatural things (like undead), the trick normally requires 2 slots. Not sure whether a combat trained animal gets the full or regular version of attack. I'm inclined to think it's the complete package.

I have the same question. Has anyone the answer?

To elaborate on the issue: An INT 2 animal can have max 6 tricks. The combat trained package includes exactly 6 tricks. If training to attack unnatural creatures will require a second attack trick, a combat trained INT 2 animal can't do it. So, considering the combat training to be the "complete package" would sure be preferable!

Sovereign Court

That issue is not unclear, adding up the tricks for combat training and it comes out to the 6- without two tricks in attack. Versimilitude-wise, most combat trained horses won't be expected to face undead and abominations etc.

Either get your animal custom trained, or be a Druid or another class that gets bonus tricks.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Combat Training (Trained for War) for Animals and Armor All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.