How do people handle finding enemy spellbooks?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Sovereign Court

So the party kills off an enemy wizard and finds his spell book. The PC wizard's eyes sparkle...

Now, from how the rules read, while it might take a bit of time, it sounds as if the entire contents of the enemy wizard's spellbook could just be copied into the PC wizard's spellbook. Sure rolls need to be made, perhaps the wizard needs to wait another level to get more spellcraft ranks, etc. But the end result is that it sounds as if the PC wizard can basically get a bunch of spells for free and then sell the enemy wizard's spellbook for half price.

How do people deal with this little nuance of party distribution of wealth and power?


Mok wrote:

So the party kills off an enemy wizard and finds his spell book. The PC wizard's eyes sparkle...

Now, from how the rules read, while it might take a bit of time, it sounds as if the entire contents of the enemy wizard's spellbook could just be copied into the PC wizard's spellbook. Sure rolls need to be made, perhaps the wizard needs to wait another level to get more spellcraft ranks, etc. But the end result is that it sounds as if the PC wizard can basically get a bunch of spells for free and then sell the enemy wizard's spellbook for half price.

How do people deal with this little nuance of party distribution of wealth and power?

Why is selling a wizard's spellbook different to selling a spare suit of +1 armor?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Spacelard wrote:
Mok wrote:

So the party kills off an enemy wizard and finds his spell book. The PC wizard's eyes sparkle...

Now, from how the rules read, while it might take a bit of time, it sounds as if the entire contents of the enemy wizard's spellbook could just be copied into the PC wizard's spellbook. Sure rolls need to be made, perhaps the wizard needs to wait another level to get more spellcraft ranks, etc. But the end result is that it sounds as if the PC wizard can basically get a bunch of spells for free and then sell the enemy wizard's spellbook for half price.

How do people deal with this little nuance of party distribution of wealth and power?

Why is selling a wizard's spellbook different to selling a spare suit of +1 armor?

The Wizard's advantage is that they CAN potentially learn any spell.

As far as selling the spell-book goes, it's like selling a bunch of spare scrolls. Not seeing a huge issue, it happens in my games all the time, and I've never seen a cash disparity.


Spacelard wrote:
Mok wrote:

So the party kills off an enemy wizard and finds his spell book. The PC wizard's eyes sparkle...

Now, from how the rules read, while it might take a bit of time, it sounds as if the entire contents of the enemy wizard's spellbook could just be copied into the PC wizard's spellbook. Sure rolls need to be made, perhaps the wizard needs to wait another level to get more spellcraft ranks, etc. But the end result is that it sounds as if the PC wizard can basically get a bunch of spells for free and then sell the enemy wizard's spellbook for half price.

How do people deal with this little nuance of party distribution of wealth and power?

Why is selling a wizard's spellbook different to selling a spare suit of +1 armor?

Because they get all the value out of the spell book, in the form of the spells, and then also get the money. It would be like selling the +1 armor and still getting the +1.

If your concerned about unequal wealth distrobution in the party, have the wizard not get a part of the proceeds for selling the book. In my group wealth is never evenly distributed, so its not that big a deal.

Also, have a couple pages read "I memorized explosive runes today"


It doesn't cause any problems in any game that I have run or played in.
Other than finding them in troves the only way for a Wizard to gain new spells is to pay for them. I have played in campaigns where the GM didn't give out spellbooks because of the perceived wealth overload and my Wizard was gimped beyond belief.

Whilst Mr Cleric, Mr Rogue and Mr Fighter were all going out spending their coin on wine, women and song (and those nice magic items you like to have out adventuring) Mr Wizard stayed at home cos he spent all his money on spells so he could remain effective in the party. Bar the freebies he got going up levels he had to pay for every single spell. He even sold his bracers cos that 500gps meant more spells which was better than a +1 on his AC.

So if in game as a GM you don't give out a few spellbooks the party wizard has a hard time of it. It is the only class which has a tax on its core ability. No spells=No Wizard.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

Spacelard wrote:

It doesn't cause any problems in any game that I have run or played in.

Other than finding them in troves the only way for a Wizard to gain new spells is to pay for them. I have played in campaigns where the GM didn't give out spellbooks because of the perceived wealth overload and my Wizard was gimped beyond belief.

Whilst Mr Cleric, Mr Rogue and Mr Fighter were all going out spending their coin on wine, women and song (and those nice magic items you like to have out adventuring) Mr Wizard stayed at home cos he spent all his money on spells so he could remain effective in the party. Bar the freebies he got going up levels he had to pay for every single spell. He even sold his bracers cos that 500gps meant more spells which was better than a +1 on his AC.

So if in game as a GM you don't give out a few spellbooks the party wizard has a hard time of it. It is the only class which has a tax on its core ability. No spells=No Wizard.

Great point. And there's also the fact that after one or two spellbooks, there's going to be a lot of spells in an enemy's book that the party wizard already has, so there's diminishing returns on successive spellbooks found. If he fights five wizards over the course of two levels (one spell-level's worth of casting), he might find 10 new spells in the first one's book, and only 5 in the second, the third only has 2 he hasn't seen before, and he might find one new spell between the last two wizards' books.

And even if he finds a whole new book of spells, he STILL HAS TO PAY (lvl^2 x 10)gp PER SPELL to copy them into his own book, or have to make a Spellcraft check every time he preps one. Check me on that last part, I might be citing the wrong skill or condition, but he really needs to have the spell in his own book to use it freely. He might as well get some of that back by selling the book.

I say have at it. Not every enemy caster is a wizard and not every wizard has a book the caster can use. You're not breaking anything by letting them take the book and do whatever they want with it.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

The group I'm currently in seems to face sorcerers far more often than wizards. When we do defeat wizards, after the first two or three, most of the spells they had are duplicates anyway. The worst is when he was a specialist in your prohibited school.

This party doesn't resell the spellbooks for several reasons, those being

1) Lack of a market. The NPCs that might be interested don't have that kind of coin.

2) We'd rather keep some of these spells, mostly the ones with the EVIL descriptor, off the market as much as possible.

3) If anything happens to OUR spellbook, they're very useful in re-creating it (since we keep them in our library rather than on our person). The cost is the opportunity cost of NOT re-selling.

More often, when the party encounters a friendly or neutral NPC wizard, we compare what spells we have in our respective books and a trade is worked out.


When did everyone become accountants and ask what every item is worth?

In our games captured spellbooks went defacto straight to the only PC who could use them.

Scrolls were discussed (if a known spell distributed, if an unknown spell went to the wizard)....


Caineach wrote:


Because they get all the value out of the spell book, in the form of the spells, and then also get the money. It would be like selling the +1 armor and still getting the +1.

Mr Fighter finaly finds a suit of +2 Whatever so he sells his +1 Whatever for roughly 500gps. He is up in cash and has improved his core ability (hit things and not get hit)

Mr Wizard finaly finds a spellbook with 10 1st level spells he hasn't got. It costs him 100gps to copy those spells (assuming he makes all his Spellcraft rolls) which has improved his core abilities. However he makes a 50gps LOSS as the resell value is half the cost of purchasing and inscribing those spell.

The wizard has a tax on him improving his core abilites which no other class has.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I agree with most of the crowd. Killing a wizard and finding his/her spellbook should be an exciting treat for the PC wizard.

Let him pay the cost per page, and make the spellcraft checks, and add the spells ... the player earned them. Then sell the book. The proceeds from selling the book should be split among the whole party anyway.

Maybe that's because, although I've never done it as a DM or player, that it probably wouldn't even hugely unbalance the game for a wizard to know every possible PHB spell (doesn't the cleric already get that equivalent?)...since it doesn't increase his/her spells/day.

Sovereign Court

KenderKin wrote:

When did everyone become accountants and ask what every item is worth?

In our games captured spellbooks went defacto straight to the only PC who could use them.

Scrolls were discussed (if a known spell distributed, if an unknown spell went to the wizard)....

My players add up the value of everything they find, virtually "liquidate" it at full "retail price", and then divy up the gold value to everyone. People can then "buy" an item of loot for 50% of retail value.

It's gross... I know...

They started looking at the hard coded values for spellbooks and started getting antsy.

While it's soul sucking to see all of the well crafted treasure troves I construct for the players get immediately liquidated, I try and stay out of it as they seem to like how it avoids any character or player conflict as everyone is getting a equal share down to the last copper.

They even track healings from wands to see who it goes to and have some weird accounting buffer to offset the tanks need for more healing than other characters. The whole thing is far too Accountants & Actuaries for me to want to pay more that the briefest attention to it.


Mok wrote:


My players add up the value of everything they find, virtually "liquidate" it at full "retail price", and then divy up the gold value to everyone. People can then "buy" an item of loot for 50% of retail value.

It's gross... I know...

Magic items are sold at half book price not full price.

Only commodities (spices, rare woods, gems, jewellery) is sold at full gp value.

Sovereign Court

Spacelard wrote:

Magic items are sold at half book price not full price.

Only commodities (spices, rare woods, gems, jewellery) is sold at full gp value.

Yeah, they don't actually sell them, instead they lump the whole treasure horde together at its book price, then the players virtually "buy" the item from the pool, and then whatever left overs are sold back in town at 50% or 100% depending on if it is a commodity or not.

Or something like that... Like I said, the less I understand the better.

I just want every treasure experience to be like when the party in the Hobbit finds the Ogre loot.


My players add up the value of everything they find, virtually "liquidate" it at full "retail price", and then divy up the gold value to everyone. People can then "buy" an item of loot for 50% of retail value.

It's gross... I know...

They started looking at the hard coded values for spellbooks and started getting antsy.

While it's soul sucking to see all of the well crafted treasure troves I construct for the players get immediately liquidated, I try and stay out of it as they seem to like how it avoids any character or player conflict as everyone is getting a equal share down to the last copper.

They even track healings from wands to see who it goes to and have some weird accounting buffer to offset the tanks need for more healing than other characters. The whole thing is far too Accountants & Actuaries for me to want to pay more that the briefest attention to it.

Color me disgusted!


Spacelard wrote:
Mok wrote:

So the party kills off an enemy wizard and finds his spell book. The PC wizard's eyes sparkle...

Now, from how the rules read, while it might take a bit of time, it sounds as if the entire contents of the enemy wizard's spellbook could just be copied into the PC wizard's spellbook. Sure rolls need to be made, perhaps the wizard needs to wait another level to get more spellcraft ranks, etc. But the end result is that it sounds as if the PC wizard can basically get a bunch of spells for free and then sell the enemy wizard's spellbook for half price.

How do people deal with this little nuance of party distribution of wealth and power?

Why is selling a wizard's spellbook different to selling a spare suit of +1 armor?

I think alot of what you do depends on how you play or what you want for your group. I personally like when players get things that make them feel as if they earned it... Especially in this case where any wizard worth noting is probably going to teleport away before he dies. As a DM you will always have the ability changes things within and out of the game. For example I let all of our wizards copy spells into their book for free because it doesn't change the fact that they still have to memorize their spells for the day and I can always adjust any fight as needed.


Mok wrote:
Spacelard wrote:

Magic items are sold at half book price not full price.

Only commodities (spices, rare woods, gems, jewellery) is sold at full gp value.

Yeah, they don't actually sell them, instead they lump the whole treasure horde together at its book price, then the players virtually "buy" the item from the pool, and then whatever left overs are sold back in town at 50% or 100% depending on if it is a commodity or not.

Or something like that... Like I said, the less I understand the better.

I just want every treasure experience to be like when the party in the Hobbit finds the Ogre loot.

That is a problem with the magical items being on sale in the fantasy version of Walmart.

Take that away and things change for the better.


Spacelard wrote:
Mok wrote:
Spacelard wrote:

Magic items are sold at half book price not full price.

Only commodities (spices, rare woods, gems, jewellery) is sold at full gp value.

Yeah, they don't actually sell them, instead they lump the whole treasure horde together at its book price, then the players virtually "buy" the item from the pool, and then whatever left overs are sold back in town at 50% or 100% depending on if it is a commodity or not.

Or something like that... Like I said, the less I understand the better.

I just want every treasure experience to be like when the party in the Hobbit finds the Ogre loot.

That is a problem with the magical items being on sale in the fantasy version of Walmart.

Take that away and things change for the better.

Then you run the risk of the players feeling like they are getting cheated. Honestly, if they like the way this is working out, let them go with it. My group has done similar things for huge hoards, but we don't for smaller ones.

Annother thing to think about is giving large items. Players are less likely to sell a more expensive item IME, and it completely throws systems like this out the window when 1 item is half the hoard. Those small, fiddly, +1 items end up getting saved up for moderate bonuses or pay for opperating expenses like potions, wands, and scrolls.

Also make sure you are not running mage mart and letting them buy everything they want in every town.

Sovereign Court

Spacelard wrote:

That is a problem with the magical items being on sale in the fantasy version of Walmart.

Take that away and things change for the better.

Yeah, in this campaign you can't buy any magic items beyond consumables of 3rd level or lower, so I'm not all that sure why they fuss on gold values being so even among the players.

Everything else, even the lowliest wondrous item, needs to be found out in the wilds.

They just use this system so that people don't get upset with each other, but it seems overkill to me.


All treasures from now on are just in GP!!!


drsparnum wrote:
Let him pay the cost per page, and make the spellcraft checks, and add the spells ... the player earned them. Then sell the book. The proceeds from selling the book should be split among the whole party anyway.

Split the proceeds? I daresay not!

Check out this post to see why.

Note that in this example, the wizard used more than 1/3 of his entire wealth, more than 1/3 of all the gold he has ever made adventuring since level 1, just to scribe spells into his spellbook.

More importantly, he spent all this gold just so he can use his one and only primary class ability - spellcasting. No other class in the game must spend 1/3 of their entire lifetime savings just to be able to peform their basic class function.

As many have said over the years, it's a "tax" on wizards that no other class suffers.

I say, let the wizard keep all the proceeds. It won't cover his costs at all, but at least it helps soothe the burn of having to pay that "tax".


LIke I said b/4 old days

Give the useful items to the PCs that can actually use them.... and split the rest of the kitty equally.

Each PC should pick an item they want (to use, not sell) and then everything else goes into party treasure.....

Counting uses on heal wands is redonkulous, fighters should charge a fee for hp of damage taken, split that damage among the party and then find out what each other PC owes the fighters for absorbing their share of the damage!!!

Call it HP offset credits....


Caineach wrote:
Also, have a couple pages read "I memorized explosive runes today"

Would any wizard actually do this to their own spellbook? I mean, if the book is stolen, this pretty much eliminates ANY chance of ever getting it back. There are better spells (Sepia Snake Sigil, Magic Mouth, Fire Trap) for the job.


spellbooks arent worth much anymore, and they certainly dont act as scrolls anymore.

do they?

came up in our kingmaker campaign

Selling a Spellbook

Captured spellbooks can be sold for an amount equal to half the cost of purchasing and inscribing the spells within.

so isnt that only 5gp for a 1st level spell?


Helic wrote:
Caineach wrote:
Also, have a couple pages read "I memorized explosive runes today"
Would any wizard actually do this to their own spellbook? I mean, if the book is stolen, this pretty much eliminates ANY chance of ever getting it back.

You do that to a Traveling Spell Book but not to your secret Tome of Spells that you have hidden away in the darkest places of your most protected crypt.

Even then, if they get that book you're probably dead, anyway, so why let them have the tome undamaged? Or live?

FWIW,

Rez


SlimGauge wrote:
This party doesn't resell the spellbooks for several reasons, those being

+1 on Slim's reasons, and a few more.

Spell books that contain all common spells are just not in demand. After all, other wizards most likely have all those spell, too. The rare spells the party doesn't want every local wizard to have, Evil or not, because the exclusivity just drives up demand for their services. Then there are the spells they'd rather not face (again) in the field.

So far they haven't sold a single spell book.

R.


DM_Blake wrote:
drsparnum wrote:
Let him pay the cost per page, and make the spellcraft checks, and add the spells ... the player earned them. Then sell the book. The proceeds from selling the book should be split among the whole party anyway.

Split the proceeds? I daresay not!

Check out this post to see why.

Note that in this example, the wizard used more than 1/3 of his entire wealth, more than 1/3 of all the gold he has ever made adventuring since level 1, just to scribe spells into his spellbook.

More importantly, he spent all this gold just so he can use his one and only primary class ability - spellcasting. No other class in the game must spend 1/3 of their entire lifetime savings just to be able to peform their basic class function.

As many have said over the years, it's a "tax" on wizards that no other class suffers.

I say, let the wizard keep all the proceeds. It won't cover his costs at all, but at least it helps soothe the burn of having to pay that "tax".

I so agree with you it hurts!

Just start crossing off gps from the fighter's sheet everytime he swings a sword and wait for the complaints.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

DM Blake, I stand by splitting the proceeds, but only after the party wizard has the chance to copy all of the spells he/she wants from the book.

I think the proceeds should be split because: 1) if the party in my games find a magic sword they plan to sell, the whole party splits the proceeds, not just the fighter, and 2) the wizard may have to spend 33% of total net worth on a spellbook, but a warrior-type needs to spend 33% of total net worth on a weapon. Wizards basically don't need to buy a weapon at all.

If you want to argue that a wizard is disadvantaged economically compared with sorcerors (who get spells for free) I'd agree to an extent. The wizard still gets some spells for free, AND at least has the option to add more. If you want to argue that a wizard is disadvantaged economically compared with a cleric or druid, well, I whole-heartedly agree.


Rezdave wrote:
Even then, if they get that book you're probably dead, anyway, so why let them have the tome undamaged? Or live?

I think theft is just as big a concern, and death in D&D isn't necessarily permanent. And explosive runes is rarely enough to kill anybody powerful enough to take out a wizard who can cast explosive runes, so it's only good for blowing up the book.

A book that you're going to read regularly, so it's often open. If you're adventuring, it's probably open when other people are around. You can mitigate this, sure, but do you want to risk your book going boom because somebody glanced over your shoulder at the wrong time?

Best idea would be to make your spellbook an intelligent magical item, with a useful spell or two to protect itself. Probably worth doing for a Blessed Book, now that I think of it...

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Forbidden Arcana by Ronin Arts has a pretty cool article on the often drastic effects of burning or otherwise destroying spell books. ...might even give your wizard a good reason to fireproof his own spell book! Good times.

Paizo Employee CEO

I handle spellbooks and scrolls in the same way that I did back in 1st edition. Basically, any time a spell is copied from a spellbook or scroll into a wizard's own spellbook, the original spell is erased from the original source. Call it the "rule of magical equilibrium" or something like that. Basically, you are transferring the spell from one medium to the other, not copying it. That works like a charm!

-Lisa


Lisa Stevens wrote:

I handle spellbooks and scrolls in the same way that I did back in 1st edition. Basically, any time a spell is copied from a spellbook or scroll into a wizard's own spellbook, the original spell is erased from the original source. Call it the "rule of magical equilibrium" or something like that. Basically, you are transferring the spell from one medium to the other, not copying it. That works like a charm!

-Lisa

Doesn't that make it hard for a wizard, assuming he's willing to commit the gold and time required, to make a backup copy of his own spellbooks?

I seem to recall other D&D editions made mention of "traveling" spellbooks, the smaller, lighter, disposable spellbooks that wizards would carry around on adventures while their precious main spellbook, the Tome-of-all-Wizardly-Knowlege, remained safe back in their well-guarded tower.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
drsparnum wrote:
DM Blake, I stand by splitting the proceeds, but only after the party wizard has the chance to copy all of the spells he/she wants from the book.

I am all for splitting the proceeds as well, but I would say the *net* proceeds, after scribing costs (which could end up negative). No reason the wizard should get pure cash for a spellbook that has a single spell he needs to copy - unless you're fine with other PCs picking it from the loot and selling it for themselves.

Of course, the PC Wizard doesn't *have* to scribe spells into his spellbook. He can learn the spell as normal, and make a spellcraft check each day (automatic by mid-level usually) to memorize it from the taken spellbook.


Lisa Stevens wrote:
I handle spellbooks and scrolls in the same way that I did back in 1st edition ... the original spell is erased from the original source.

I view magic very differently. There is nothing inherently "magical" about a spell book nor the writing in it. It's a combination recipe book and journal and diary and whatever else the wizard wants it to be. There is no cost to transcribe and it is done with mundane ink.

But that's my world.

R.


Majuba wrote:
Of course, the PC Wizard doesn't *have* to scribe spells into his spellbook. He can learn the spell as normal, and make a spellcraft check each day (automatic by mid-level usually) to memorize it from the taken spellbook.

This is both true and not true.

True because:

PSRD, Arcane Magical Writings wrote:
To record an arcane spell in written form, a character uses complex notation that describes the magical forces involved in the spell. The writer uses the same system no matter what her native language or culture. However, each character uses the system in his own way. Another person's magical writing remains incomprehensible to even the most powerful wizard until he takes time to study and decipher it.

and

PSRD, Arcane Magical Writings wrote:
To decipher an arcane magical writing (such as a single spell in another's spellbook or on a scroll), a character must make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the spell's level). If the skill check fails, the character cannot attempt to read that particular spell again until the next day. A read magic spell automatically deciphers magical writing without a skill check. If the person who created the magical writing is on hand to help the reader, success is also automatic.

and

(edited a bit to reduce the wall of text)

PSRD, Arcane Magical Writings wrote:
A wizard can also add a spell to his book whenever he encounters one in another wizard's spellbook. No matter what the spell's source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings). Next, he must spend 1 hour studying the spell. At the end of the hour, he must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level). If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into his spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. He cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until he gains another rank in Spellcraft. If the spell was from a scroll, a failed Spellcraft check does not cause the spell to vanish.

So, based on all that, when a wizard finds a spellbook, it's written in some kind of magical shorthand system that only the former owner can read. Each individual spell must be deciphered before the new owner can even understand them. If he deciphers it, he can attempt to copy it with another check, but if that fails, he cannot try again until he gains a rank in Spellcraft.

But, what you said is also true because:

PSRD, Arcane Magical Writings wrote:
A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell he already knows and has recorded in his own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured. First, the wizard must decipher the writing in the book (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Once a spell from another spellcaster's book is deciphered, the reader must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level) to prepare the spell. If the check succeeds, the wizard can prepare the spell. He must repeat the check to prepare the spell again, no matter how many times he has prepared it before. If the check fails, he cannot try to prepare the spell from the same source again until the next day.

So, based on that, the wizard must still decipher the weird magical shorthand, but once he does, he never has to do it again. If he wants to prepare a spell from that borrowed spellbook, he must make a Spellcraft check each and every time he prepares it - the only way to ever prepare it without a Spellcraft check is to copy it into his own arcane shorthand in his own spellbook.

I suppose with enough skill in Spellcraft, it might become a moot point. For example, assuming a starting INT of 20, all advances put into INT, and a reasonable access to +2, +4, and eventually +6 INT items:

A first level wizard preparing a level 1 spell from a borrowed book has about a 30% chance to fail to prepare it.
A third level wizard preparing a level 2 spell from a borrowed book has about a 25% chance to fail to prepare it.
A fifth level wizard preparing a level 3 spell from a borrowed book has about a 15% chance to fail to prepare it.
A seventh level wizard preparing a level 4 spell from a borrowed book has about a 10% chance to fail to prepare it.
And finally, a ninth level wizard preparing a level 5 spell from a borrowed book has about a 0% chance to fail to prepare it.

So, at ninth level, assuming a base 20 INT +1 at 4th level and +1 at 8th level, and with a +2 INT item, the wizard can prepare a deciphered spell from a borrowed book with confidence.

But he still has to lug all those books around everywhere he goes...


Spacelard wrote:
I have played in campaigns where the GM didn't give out spellbooks because of the perceived wealth overload and my Wizard was gimped beyond belief.

+1

Spacelard wrote:
That is a problem with the magical items being on sale in the fantasy version of Walmart. Take that away and things change for the better.

+1

Couldn't agree more. Also wealth by level is a cul-de-sac down which game balance is lured and then quietly strangled.

Zo


Capturing a spellbook is one of the best experiences a Wizard player gets. There's much more to it than value and utility.

I would never, ever, consider changing the experience of the wizard getting to copy the spells into his own book. I would sooner remove swords and monsters from the game.


my wizard uses a thassilonian numerical cypher for hers. not only do you need a spellcraft check, you need to know thassilonian too. the cypher is very complex. and attempting to translate the numbers into letters makes it seem to sound like a rather odd thassilonian cookbook. and the recipes sound rather similar to thier edible counterpart. and the recipes themselves are codes leading to yet another numerical cypher. and that numerical cypher leads to the many theories that won nobel prizes, which leads to another mathmatical cypher that leads to the actual spells themselves.


Shuriken Nekogami wrote:
my wizard uses a thassilonian numerical cypher for hers. not only do you need a spellcraft check, you need to know thassilonian too. the cypher is very complex. and attempting to translate the numbers into letters makes it seem to sound like a rather odd thassilonian cookbook. and the recipes sound rather similar to thier edible counterpart. and the recipes themselves are codes leading to yet another numerical cypher. and that numerical cypher leads to the many theories that won nobel prizes, which leads to another mathmatical cypher that leads to the actual spells themselves.

Hah!

No matter, I can still decipher it on a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the spell's level). And I have max Spellcraft.

Damn, this Fireball stew is Yuuuummmmmmy!!!


Funny story...

I actually started including the spells from PF#5 in captured spellbooks in my campaign. The catch is, they are in a cypher I created using the Thassilonian rune font from the community runelords thread. In order to learn "Swipe" for instance (great spell) my wizard player had to actually decipher it. Good times.


Mok wrote:

So the party kills off an enemy wizard and finds his spell book. The PC wizard's eyes sparkle...

Now, from how the rules read, while it might take a bit of time, it sounds as if the entire contents of the enemy wizard's spellbook could just be copied into the PC wizard's spellbook. Sure rolls need to be made, perhaps the wizard needs to wait another level to get more spellcraft ranks, etc. But the end result is that it sounds as if the PC wizard can basically get a bunch of spells for free and then sell the enemy wizard's spellbook for half price.

How do people deal with this little nuance of party distribution of wealth and power?

As I handle any other magic item, the spellbook has a market item (as stated in PFRPG), thus it's treasure. If the spellbook is for the wizard, the fighter should take the natural armor amulet.

There isn't much difference between a spellbook or a bunch of arcane scrolls, in the end we are talking of treasure here. Ok, the spellbook can be sold for 1/2 of its price once used, but prolly half of the spells in the spellbook were already know by the wizard.

I don't think that a wizard must have 100's of spells to be effective, he gains free spells each level, as a sorcerer do, and both can be quite effective in combat with just a few spells for level. Obviously more spells mean more options in and out of combat, and the wizard must pay for it (or wait for treasure) as anyone that improves his abilities using any kind of item.

If you think that wizards should have a cheap access to new spells you should check what Pathfinder says about it in "Adding Spells to a Wizard’s Spellbook" (page 219), it talks about an optional NPC service that would allow wizards to copy spells from NPC wizards spellbooks for a low ammount of money. Yet, the rules for NPC services in the Equipment chapter say that it can be difficult to find an NPC able to cast a particular 8th level spell even in Metropolis.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mok wrote:

So the party kills off an enemy wizard and finds his spell book. The PC wizard's eyes sparkle...

Now, from how the rules read, while it might take a bit of time, it sounds as if the entire contents of the enemy wizard's spellbook could just be copied into the PC wizard's spellbook. Sure rolls need to be made, perhaps the wizard needs to wait another level to get more spellcraft ranks, etc. But the end result is that it sounds as if the PC wizard can basically get a bunch of spells for free and then sell the enemy wizard's spellbook for half price.

How do people deal with this little nuance of party distribution of wealth and power?

Don't forget it isn't free. If they're selling the wizard's spellbook that assumes that the PC Wizard is scribing the spells into his own book for 100 gp per page that each spell takes up. If it's a packed spellbook, selling such a valuable trove might spur an adventure in itself. Also remember that very very very few people are in a position to buy such a thing.

And also remember Power Word Stun takes up SEVEN Pages. so that's 700 gp of precious inks my friend. (But I got a good deal and got this ink for 500 gold! Good job apprentice now go back in there and buy 200 gold worth more! :)

This of course assumes the wizard survives the potential hazard of opening the spellbook :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
IkeFromSpain wrote:


If you think that wizards should have a cheap access to new spells you should check what Pathfinder says about it in "Adding Spells to a Wizard’s Spellbook" (page 219), it talks about an optional NPC service that would allow wizards to copy spells from NPC wizards spellbooks for a low ammount of money.

That only covers the privilege of looking and studying the NPC's spellbook. Scribing the spell into your own book still has to be paid for on top of that.

And you can also go by the Greyhawk standard that the default answer from an NPC wizard is going to be NO at any cost, unless a favor is owed at some point.

The thing to remember is that you the DM have total control over how spells are gained whether it's by theft, purchase, or research. If your PC wizard goes out of control with his spell library, you're the only one to blame.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
LazarX wrote:

the PC Wizard is scribing the spells into his own book for 100 gp per page that each spell takes up.

And also remember Power Word Stun takes up SEVEN Pages. so that's 700 gp of precious inks my friend. (But I got a good deal and got this ink for 500 gold! Good job apprentice now go back in there and buy 200 gold worth more! :)

I believe that the scribing costs have changed in Pathfinder.

Page 219 of the Core lists the costs for scribing the spells into a spellbook. A 7th level spell would cost 490 gp to scribe, while a 1st level spell costs 10 gp to scribe. So, no longer 100 gp per page.


Mistwalker wrote:


I believe that the scribing costs have changed in Pathfinder.

Page 219 of the Core lists the costs for scribing the spells into a spellbook. A 7th level spell would cost 490 gp to scribe, while a 1st level spell costs 10 gp to scribe. So, no longer 100 gp per page.

yep

so am I right the 1st level spell in the book is only worth 5gp?


thenovalord wrote:
Mistwalker wrote:


I believe that the scribing costs have changed in Pathfinder.

Page 219 of the Core lists the costs for scribing the spells into a spellbook. A 7th level spell would cost 490 gp to scribe, while a 1st level spell costs 10 gp to scribe. So, no longer 100 gp per page.

yep

so am I right the 1st level spell in the book is only worth 5gp?

Yep.

So Mr Wizard is down 5gps everytime he scribes a 1st level spell into his book cos it costs him 10gps to do so.


Rezdave wrote:
I view magic very differently. There is nothing inherently "magical" about a spell book nor the writing in it. It's a combination recipe book and journal and diary and whatever else the wizard wants it to be. There is no cost to transcribe and it is done with mundane ink.

While I love the idea of not spending heaps of gold on spell scribing, the very existence of Read Magic as a spell does suggest that there is something inherently magical about a spellbook. Mind you, where the hell you get ink worth hundreds of gold pieces is another matter. Contrast this with the cost of a spellbook (the book itself) - cheap at 15gp. But the inks to write spells in that book? Could be thousands of gp.

This makes no sense. Magical scrolls are one thing - you can spend money on the best possible vellum, glue down gold leaf borders, write with sphinx feather quills, yadda yadda, it all adds up. But we know all that crap isn't necessary for a wizard's spellbook, because he gets two spells in his book for free every level.

My GM fixed that last problem by charging me for my free spells. Still haven't forgiven him for it. :-0

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Helic wrote:


This makes no sense. Magical scrolls are one thing - you can spend money on the best possible vellum, glue down gold leaf borders, write with sphinx feather quills, yadda yadda, it all adds up. But we know all that crap isn't necessary for a wizard's spellbook, because he gets two spells in his book for free every level.

Those two spells per level aren't free, the costs are simply assumed to be covered in the background. I assume it's a holdover from the days where it was assumed that you paid an ever increasing fortune for level training.

And on the contrary wizard's spellbooks are meant to LAST, so you don't chintz out on the ink or vellum if you want to stay in the buisness.


LazarX wrote:
Helic wrote:


But we know all that crap isn't necessary for a wizard's spellbook, because he gets two spells in his book for free every level.
Those two spells per level aren't free, the costs are simply assumed to be covered in the background. I assume it's a holdover from the days where it was assumed that you paid an ever increasing fortune for level training.

They're free. The RAW, pg219, says 'free spells', TWICE. You can wave 'background cost' all you want, but it still costs ZERO gold to scribe those spells. At 2nd level, your two free spells 'should' cost 20gp to scribe; at 2nd level 20gp isn't a background cost, it's a decent chunk of change. Never a crippling one, but even at 17th level the 'free spells' should have cost 1620gp to scribe - affordable but not unnoticeable.

Quote:
And on the contrary wizard's spellbooks are meant to LAST, so you don't chintz out on the ink or vellum if you want to stay in the buisness.

A spellbook (empty) costs 15gp. This is not to imply it's made of cheap materials, but at this price, it's not made of EXOTIC materials, like you might use for a scroll to justify the hideous expense of magical items. So the price of scribing spells in a book comes down to...what? Ink? Powdered ruby glued to the page?

The more and more I think about this the more I realize D&D needs something akin to vis from Ars Magica. Vis was basically raw magic in physical form, and used to enchant or power spells (or as food for magical creatures). This could easily justify most of the expenses involved with D&D magic - you need vis to scribe spells, make magic items, etc...and it would comprise the bulk of the costs. Vis could replace a large amount of the gold rewards from encounters (b/c beyond a certain point, most of what you're spending gold on is magic items) and you could ratchet economies to more realistic levels (like buildings, which are stupidly overpriced).


Mok wrote:

So the party kills off an enemy wizard and finds his spell book. The PC wizard's eyes sparkle...

Now, from how the rules read, while it might take a bit of time, it sounds as if the entire contents of the enemy wizard's spellbook could just be copied into the PC wizard's spellbook. Sure rolls need to be made, perhaps the wizard needs to wait another level to get more spellcraft ranks, etc. But the end result is that it sounds as if the PC wizard can basically get a bunch of spells for free and then sell the enemy wizard's spellbook for half price.

How do people deal with this little nuance of party distribution of wealth and power?

From your post, it seems as if you want to add a bit of flavor to the scenario, rather then simply let the wizard copy then make a profit. Or maybe this was really about wealth :p

On the thinking that it may be about flavor and not just wishing this to be simply a free spells and then some gold for the party, the DM can easily throw some things into the mix that makes having the spellbook not such an easy thing to have.

Rather then just have the copy sell scenario, the pages could be difficult to read, allowing the wizard some benifit, yet keeping the book from being simply marketable. Perhaps there is more too it and further studies reveal that they must return to the original enemy wizards lair and search for more information or scrolls that will give clues as to the spellbooks origins and language. Perhaps he (insert evil wizards name here) had a strong apprentice who, before there is a chance to sell the book, is able to steal it back (Still giving the wizard some time to gain some benifits to having it in his possession). Or, even if sold, enter the wizards master who has the power to use the party to get the book back. Maybe the merchant reveived a curse and the party is made (Or, if good, accepts the fact that the evil book is there responsibility) and thus has to buy the book back or take it someone to be destroyed.

Simple wealth is easy enough, but if the DM is not happy with such simple solutions, simply throw things into the mix that further adds to the situation and creates both benifit and/ or hardship 8)

I may be off from what I understood the post to be, so Im just adding my 2 cents to the mix :P

Sometimes I just have to say something, even if its not relevant 8)


Helic wrote:
Rezdave wrote:
I view magic very differently. There is nothing inherently "magical" about a spell book nor the writing in it. It's a combination recipe book and journal and diary and whatever else the wizard wants it to be. There is no cost to transcribe and it is done with mundane ink.
While I love the idea of not spending heaps of gold on spell scribing, the very existence of Read Magic as a spell does suggest that there is something inherently magical about a spellbook.

Because spell-books are idiosyncratic, Spellcraft is necessary to decipher them. Read Magic allows you to avoid the explosive runes and illusory script and other stuff.

Anyway, that's the way we play it. But mine is a silver-standard economy, so I can't be charging PCs for every normal RAW cost.

Helic wrote:
Rezdave wrote:
I view magic very differently ... There is no cost to transcribe and it is done with mundane ink.
Magical scrolls are one thing - you can spend money on the best possible vellum, glue down gold leaf borders, write with sphinx feather quills, yadda yadda, it all adds up.

I charge for scrolls, but for a very different reason. I use something I call the "Two-Component System" for magic. Basically, most Wizards use Somatic and Verbal components to cast their spells, and I removed all Material components. Granted, an "Earth Mage" might use Material and Verbal components, and so could cast even if her hands were tied up. Many other component systems exist in my world.

Scrolls use a Verbal/Material paradigm, and this is where the expense comes in. Unique inks must be specially distilled and prepared for each different type of spell. You can't simply go to the magic shop and buy "scroll ink" but rather must but protection from arrows ink or fireball ink or whatever. I do allow economies of scale, but the unique formulation of the inks is what makes scrolls expensive ... in my world, anyway.

R.

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