Dancing Lights - the most powerful spell is never used 'correctly'.


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


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Dancing Lights is an extremely powerful spell, but it never seems to be used correctly.

Couple of assumptions first:
1. As a part of moving Dancing Lights the caster 'knows' where they are.
2. Either the Dancing Lights can move through solid objects, or they can't.
a) If they can move through solid objects, then send 2-4 of them into a room at 20' distance from each other (10' radius spell) and move them about to determine how big the room is. The changes in light levels will give away when they went 'through' a wall or something. By using both your knowledge of where you are moving them, and the light that it is being cast at the entryway for the room, you will get an idea of the room and major contents in the center of the room.
b) if they cannot move through solid objects, then you will know when they stop and cannot move. However this implies that they can be stopped, held, etc. The spell describes them as winking out if they go beyond the casters range. but no mention of 'entering' and object.
Even if they are stopped, the trick is to have two pairs of lights 5' apart and rotating about one another at various speeds (maximum of 100' per round). As soon as one pair hits an object and stops, I get a reduction in the flickering that comes from them rotating at 100'/round about each other like a police car light.

Even a single torch (or 4 lights together) that sweeps the room back and forth by traveling through each and every square to determine how the light changes as it comes out the doorway will work in terms of determining where walls are. And if the light gets 'behind' a figure that is standing there looking at it (or looking for a Fey in the room that might be invisible and trying to screw with them...), then the shadows might show up near the entrance to the room. Basically I'm repeating the experiment that physicists used to discover the structure of things like atoms and molecules by shooting things in and seeing what happens. I send in torches, and know where they 'should be' and look for effect from the light they give off. Any columns in the room should introduce repeatable flickering in the doorway. If a figure moves, then I cannot repeat the flickering by repeating the same pattern that gave me the initial flicker.

Obviously this will not work for big caverns, but for smaller rooms, it should be enough to give the general dimensions as well as significant features like columns or standing bodies. If I have the lights move about in various patters that test light coming from various locations in the room, I should be able to gain a lot of information, especially if I've practiced this trick many times before, and especially if I control the lights and therefore know their locations (to determine the dimensions of the room).

Clearly, determining the size of a 40'x40' room as well as 'major features' inside takes a considerable amount of time. It could/would confuse anyone who is not familiar with either Knowledge(dungeoneering) or Knowledge(Arcana) that this is one of the uses of this spell. But the long time it takes also works in my favor, because anyone inside is likely to get impatient, unless they know we are coming AND know who we are. So the large amount of time it takes for me to move the lights around in various patters to see how the light in the doorway flickers, based on my knowledge of the location of the dancing lights, also works in my favor if I can be patient.

Weird magical effects, whether they are supposedly by mischevous Fey, or seem to be an attempt to distract right before an assault, will certainly alert anyone inside the room, and possibly get them to react. It is the time 'after' the lights have been gone, that those inside might realize that nothing is coming (or that it already came and left.)
The next step is to either use Ghost Sound, or even better, Message the residents with a high pitched sylvan accent. With Ghost Sound, having a couple of high pitched voices speaking/whispering/giggling in Sylvan, or even the pitter patter of a little horde with "Bring the water bladder and put it over the door" or "Keep the caltrops under your shirt, only throw them in front of them when they start moving" should be enough to trigger occupants to react (or limit their mobility when we actually enter a room).

With Message, the target or occupant of the room need not know where you are to reply to you. A message of "You have no idea how many times I've gotten Gnolls to leave out a few coins so that 'we' don't start playing all sorts of invisible pranks. A few Copper is good, unless you have a really nice mug or comb you don't need. Do you have any extra large feathers? Leave it in the doorway, and step back. Or else I get to show you my best tricks!"

And at night, Dancing Lights is like a trip flare that simply pops up randomly, backlighting anything moving towards you.

So what am I missing? Or should I say, why are so many people totally missing the advantages of this spell?


I love Dancing Lights; it works great as a fast-moving spotlight, as you point out.

Sovereign Court

hogarth wrote:
I love Dancing Lights; it works great as a fast-moving spotlight, as you point out.

I love faerie fire as well, its just a pity you can't make them permanent. What a laugh it is to cast it on a fellow PC ;)


I think i'll use this on my PC as a random encounter, from another group of adventures or as a raiding party into the same catacombs.
very cool use for the spell.
thanks for explaining it usefulness.


Dancing Lights, more so than probably any other cantrip/orison, benefitted massively from the switch to infinite 0 level spell slots. In 3E, everyone ignored it because of its horrible short duration. But in PF, it lasts "long enough to not have to re-cast it every other round" and that's really enough. And the ability to shine a light on foes while being hidden yourself is very potent. Typical light sources are a necessary evil. You can't see without them, but they highlight you to all foes with "line of sight" (in this case...anyone not around a corner or with a barrier in the way, even if they can't see the area between the edge of your light and their position). Dancing Lights turns the tables and basically gives you the benefits of seeing in the dark *and* spot-lighting the foes. I've been using it since PF came out, any class that has it it's instantly one of the cantrips I learn/prepare each day, no exceptions.

Spoiler:
It wasn't dancing lights, but one time I used Launch Item (3E splat book cantrip, flings an up to 5 lb item Medium range) to send a sunrod all the way down a long corridor because it seemed suspicious. It clangs to the ground, and out come a whole bunch of mind flayers from around the corner to see what the heck that was, all lit up for us. Which in turn lead to us lighting them the hell up from "way the hell beyond their mind blast range" before they could even do much. Turned a hard encounter into a joke, just by lighting the path ahead. I've had tremendous respect for such abilities ever since.


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Just... wow. A lot of thought went into this, so I would like to add a thought of my own.

At least in regards to using dancing lights in this manner, if I were a GM I would require some sort of a skill check like Knowledge (dungeoneering) in order to gain accurate information but would allow for the creative use of the spell to allow for the skill check in the first place. If a player really favored this little trick, I might construct a feat they could take to represent the time and resources necessary to master this ability and use it on a continuous basis with reliability. Having not play tested anything like this before, here is my initial construction of a feat. The prerequisites help to make sure characters don't access something like blindsense too early in the career for balancing reasons, but otherwise the ability to use a 0-level spell to gain limited blindsense seems pretty sweet to me. Theoretically you could use this feat to gain blindsense out to the range of the spell in two different 10-ft.-radius areas per round.

Dancing Probe [General Feat]
You have mastered the ability to use dancing lights to explore darkened environments, uncovering secrets hidden from lesser adventurers.
Prerequisites: Ability to cast dancing lights as a spell or spell-like ability, Int 13, Knowledge (dungeoneering) 5 ranks.
Benefit: As a move action, you may concentrate on an active dancing lights effect under your control to gain blindsense within the 10-ft.-radius area of the spell's effect.

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