Master Craftsman Feat. Help me Understand.


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Master Craftsman

Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.

Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.

Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.

Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.

Question: Can my fighter create a +1 Flaming Longsword without being able to cast Magic Weapon and Fireball? Can he use his Craft(Weaponsmith) skill in order to make that DC Check?

Someone explain to me - in detail - how this feat would be useful to a non-caster.


Yes he can create magical weapons, and anything else that isn't a spell-trigger or activation item.

He counts his ranks in Craft as his caster lvl, for every pre-requisite spell he doesn't possess, a -5 penalty is incurred.

So in your example there would be a -10 penalty to the check.


Tanis wrote:

Yes he can create magical weapons, and anything else that isn't a spell-trigger or activation item.

He counts his ranks in Craft as his caster lvl, for every pre-requisite spell he doesn't possess, a -5 penalty is incurred.

So in your example there would be a -10 penalty to the check.

Thanks. So, for example, if a paladin took this feat to create a +1 Flaming Longsword. He would only take a -5 penalty? He does have Magic weapon, so everything is good there...but he doesn't have Fireball..so that penalty would encure?


Yeh, but he'd have to actually cast Magic Weapon when making the check.

btw, PF Paladins rock! Sweet Mercy!


Do you still have to purchase the actual Item-Creation feats in order to make the sword, or does Master Craftsmen count?


"You can create magic items using these feats,
substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total
caster level". (skill description)

Scarab Sages

Pg 130 under master craftsman:

Choose one craft or profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the craft magic arms and armor and craft wondrous item feats.

So yes, you still have to take Craft wondrous items and/or craft magic arms and armor.


yeh, my bad, forgot to finish my thought, your Craft rank allows you to qualify for feats. Otherwise, why would anyone take the item creation feats? just take one feat (master craftsman) and you could craft anything you've got craft ranks in.


Does anyone think limiting the Master Craftsman feat to just one Craft skill is kinda wrong? Skill ranks are hard enough to allocate for me and as far as I know you can only take Master Craftsman once!


RAW is pretty clear to me that if you wanted to be able to Craft Armor and Craft Weapons you would have to take master craftsman twice. I think a fair house rule would be to take the feat and for similar craft skills that you have 5+ ranks in you could "spend" the +2 bonus for extra types.

So Master Craftsman with one skill would get a +2 Bonus.

Master Craftsman with a character that can do weapons and armor would have a +1 bonus to Armorsmith and a +1 bonus to Weaponsmith.

Overall it kind of breaks down after that... but no more then the base rules. I mean what exactly do you use your master craftsman skill for on creating wonderous items. Cloth, leather, wood, beads, metal.... In theory you would have to take master craftsman for MANY skills to be able to cover what a spellcaster can get with one feat.


Azoralq wrote:
Tanis wrote:

Yes he can create magical weapons, and anything else that isn't a spell-trigger or activation item.

He counts his ranks in Craft as his caster lvl, for every pre-requisite spell he doesn't possess, a -5 penalty is incurred.

So in your example there would be a -10 penalty to the check.

Thanks. So, for example, if a paladin took this feat to create a +1 Flaming Longsword. He would only take a -5 penalty? He does have Magic weapon, so everything is good there...but he doesn't have Fireball..so that penalty would encure?

Magic Weapon (the spell) is not a prerequisite for creating magic weapons. The example Fighter (and Paladin) would only suffer a +5 penalty to the DC when crafting the Flaming portion of the Longsword (unless a helpful druid, cleric, or wiz/sorc contributed one of the prerequisite spell options).

So he would have a DC 8 check to make the weapon +1 [5 + 3 (caster level for a +1 weapon)], and a DC 20 check to make it flaming [5 + 10 (caster level for flaming) + 5 (penalty for not having fireball/etc.)].

If he tries to make the weapon +2, and only had 5 ranks in craft(weaponsmithing), the DC would be 5 + 6 (caster level for +2 weapon) + 5 (penalty for not meeting the specific caster level requirement for enhancement bonus on weapons).

As for Craft Wondrous - craft (jewelry) and craft (leatherworking) can make a lot of things.

On being limited to the specific craft: I'm not quite sure of the intent, but the craft ranks count as caster level to qualify you for the feat. It doesn't /specifically/ say you must use that crafting skill to create the items. It probably does mean that though - and at the very least any hard caster level prerequisites would still be based off the original craft skill.


Berselius wrote:
Does anyone think limiting the Master Craftsman feat to just one Craft skill is kinda wrong? Skill ranks are hard enough to allocate for me and as far as I know you can only take Master Craftsman once!

I don't really feel that way. The non caster is not meant to be anywhere near as efficient as a caster to make magic items. Also consider this: How many classes aren't casters? We have Fighers, Barbarians, and Rogues. The most likely to take this feat is the Fighter, who has feats and skill points to spare. Paladins and Rangers don't need this because they are casters already, they just don't have most of the spells necessary to create many items, but that is resolved anyways. This makes crafting magical items so that anybody CAN do, but casters are better at, and primary casters are best at.


i have a character that has this feat and he makes his own weapons and armor, but instead of putting skill points in both craft armor and craft weapons, i put it in profession blacksmithing. and make checks off of it. because fighters get so few skill points to start with.


Cheeky! I like it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Azoralq wrote:

Master Craftsman

Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.

Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.

Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.

Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.

Question: Can my fighter create a +1 Flaming Longsword without being able to cast Magic Weapon and Fireball? Can he use his Craft(Weaponsmith) skill in order to make that DC Check?

Someone explain to me - in detail - how this feat would be useful to a non-caster.

ok heres what ya do

the minium level u can be to make a +1 flaming weapon is level 10 for flameing has a CL of 10, pic up craft arms and armor and 7th
for every 1000 gp in the items price adds 1 day

but it would take 14 days to make it MW
you can shorten it to 7 days if u volintarly raise the dc by 10
now sence +1flameing weapon is effectivly a +2 weapon in terms of cost at 8 days for that so it would take roughtly 22 days or 15 days to make a that +2 weapon thats running it witha exact item in mind. if u dont mind randomness ur can have it run off Just crafting MW items and radomize any item enchantments IF your just crafting a magic this way u can craft magic items faster but its (rolled ) the first idea for a weapon motif design that pops into your head but thats me hope my answer help you


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Someone explain to me - in detail - how this feat would be useful to a non-caster.

It lets a fighter forge his own weapons OR armor if the spellcasters are unwilling to take the feat, and you specialize in an oddball weapon that isn't dropping AND you can't get gear custom made in your campaign.

The feat is thematically useful, but mechanically there are a few traps to it.

First of all, you get it at 5th level. It lets you QUALIFY for the craft magic arms and armor feat... which you would have to take at 7th level. So that's 2 feats to get one craft feat and you can't USE it till 7th level.

Secondly, the feat is tied to a skill, not a feat. Let me repeat that: taking this feat lets you take craft magic arms and armor, but if is tied to craft: weaponsmithing it will not let you make armor. If you take craft: leatherworking (probably the most bang for your buck)and craft wondrous item you can make belts, headbands, and bags but you can't make elixirs or something like the apparatus of the crab.

Thirdly, you technically cannot take the feat multiple times,so once you make magic weapons thats it.

Ok, so you hit 7th level and decide to craft your flaming sword. You can make the sword +2 and flaming because

Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. A magic weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any melee or ranged special weapon abilities.

The enhancement bonus itself doesn't have a pre req, so you're fine there.

Flaming: Upon command, a flaming weapon is sheathed in fire that deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage on a successful hit. The fire does not harm the wielder. The effect remains until another command is given.

Moderate evocation; CL 10th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor and flame blade, flame strike, or fireball; Price +1 bonus.

you're not caster level 10, and you can't cast any of the spells, so thats +10 to the dc.

The higher caster level for the item is the flaming swords 10, rather than the +2's dc of 6, so the dc is 5 (base) +10 (caster level) +10 (unmet prereqs) = 25

You should have 7 ranks, +3 class for craft being a class skill +2 master work tools,+2 from the master craftsman feat, +2 for the assist if you borrow a local smith for a few paultry GP, for a total of +16. You can take 10 and make your sword for half the price of buying it.

The use is that without the feat, you wouldn't be able to afford the sword, so you have an extra +1 to hit and damage. How useful that is depends vasty on your income and level of magic martness to your game.


Take the Cosmopolitan feat...which allows you to choose 2 Int, Wis, or Cha based skills...and choose Spellcraft. Spellcraft checks can be used to craft any magic item, so ranks in it would be useful for Arms, Armor and Wondrous Items.

It costs you an extra feat, but it allows you to tie all of your crafting to one skill, saving you skill points in the long run. Yes, I know that taking Cosmopolitan wouldn't actually be necessary to put ranks in Spellcraft, but being able to consider it a class skill will be extremely useful, as those crafting DC's can run up rather quickly for a non-caster (+5 for every spell you don't have...even simple items can get rapidly out of reach).

...and really, who couldn't use two extra languages?


Sieglord wrote:

Take the Cosmopolitan feat...which allows you to

...and really, who couldn't use two extra languages?

I don't believe this works, as spellcraft is not a craft or profession skill.


EDIT: Retract an earlier statement.

nothraziem wrote:

ok heres what ya do

the minium level u can be to make a +1 flaming weapon is level 10 for flameing has a CL of 10, pic up craft arms and armor and 7th
for every 1000 gp in the items price adds 1 day

You do not need to have a caster level equal to the CL of the item. For magic weapons specifically though, you need to have a caster level of at least three times the enhancement bonus - so CL3 for a +1 flaming weapon. This cannot be skipped with +5 to the DC:


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Sieglord wrote:

Take the Cosmopolitan feat...which allows you to

...and really, who couldn't use two extra languages?
I don't believe this works, as spellcraft is not a craft or profession skill.

...except that it IS a craft skill, as it very clearly specifies in the Spellcraft description, "You are skilled at the art of casting spells, identifying magic items, CRAFTING MAGIC ITEMS, and identifying spells as they are being cast." (Emphasis mine)

Since the skill description clearly states that the skill can be used to craft something, it is a craft skill, and thus, the Master Craftsman feat can be applied to it. The placement of the word "craft" at the end of the skill's name, rather than at the front of it, does nothing to change this.


Well you just have to get your GM to agree to that, as crafting is not available in PFS. You may want to ask the question here "Is Spellcraft a crafting skill?" I think that most people here will say no.


David Thomassen wrote:
Well you just have to get your GM to agree to that, as crafting is not available in PFS. You may want to ask the question here "Is Spellcraft a crafting skill?" I think that most people here will say no.

I'm sure you're right...most people here would say "no". I would be very interested in examining the chain of logic that they would use to come to that conclusion, however, since nothing in the Core Rulebook contradicts what I'm saying.

I'm not involved in organized play, so I'm not familiar with the "house rules" it uses, I am referring strictly to RAW in the Core Rulebook.

Scarab Sages

Sorry, spellcraft doesn't work.

I guess you could try taking Craft: Spellcraft, but it's pretty clear that the feat requires a craft skill, not a skill that mentions crafting :p

Dark Archive

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Someone explain to me - in detail - how this feat would be useful to a non-caster.

It lets a fighter forge his own weapons OR armor...

Not true. Let me explain. The Master Craftsman feat allows you to use skill ranks in place of CL for the purpose of qualifying for Craft Arms AND Armor. Not Craft Arms OR Armor. One of the major causes of confusion with all of this (IMO) is the duplicate use of the term "craft". The "crafting" feats should really be called ENCHANT Arms and Armor, Enchant Wondrous Item etc. Crafting skills are used to create items (be they swords or boots etc) from raw materials. The "crafting" feats enchant items (again, be they swords or boots etc) with magical powers/abilities. The crafting skills cannot and do not not enchant items. The crafting feats cannot and do not create items from raw materials. They are two separate steps.

Nobody expects the wizard with Craft Arms and Armor to actually forge the sword he intends to enchant with his feat. One is merely provided to him, whether it is bought, found, stolen or created by another character with the requisite crafting skill. That is not to say that the wizard cannot have skill ranks in weapon-smithing and craft his own sword, but it isn't required.

Similarly, the fighter who has the skill ranks, takes the Master Craftsmen feat and selects Craft Arms and Armor, is NOT required to forge the sword he intends to enchant. If his ranks are in weapon-smithing and he wishes to craft the masterwork sword (thereby saving himself some coin) he intends to enchant, he is welcome to. He is not required to however. Thus, if he wishes to enchant a suit of armor, and he has no skill in armor-smithing, he is only required to have a masterwork suit provided/available to him.

In fact, his skill ranks are not required to have anything to do at all with the enchanted item in question. The only relevance the skill ranks have in the process is their substitution for CL. (This allows for some seriously weird, but ultimately explainable, weirdness when you throw Profession(s) in to the mix. :) (See link below)

I am cribbing from a lengthy explanation/example of the interplay of crafting skills vs feats in this post of mine posted --->HERE

BigNorseWolf wrote:

The feat is thematically useful, but mechanically there are a few traps to it.

First of all, you get it at 5th level. It lets you QUALIFY for the craft magic arms and armor feat... which you would have to take at 7th level. So that's 2 feats to get one craft feat and you can't USE it till 7th level.

I have no issue here. The casters are generally meant to be the default enchanting "experts" as opposed to the non-casters. A second feat expenditure and a delay in gaining access to the ability to enchant items is agreeable from a fluff viewpoint, to me anyhow. YMMV.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Secondly, the feat is tied to a skill, not a feat. Let me repeat that: taking this feat lets you take craft magic arms and armor, but if is tied to craft: weaponsmithing it will not let you make armor. If you take craft: leatherworking (probably the most bang for your buck)and craft wondrous item you can make belts, headbands, and bags but you can't make elixirs or something like the apparatus of the crab.

I believe I covered this above, but to repeat, you enchant using the crafting feats. The skill is largely irrelevant. Again, nobody expects the wizard to make the belt (Craft: leather working) he wants to enchant, why does the fighter?

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Thirdly, you technically cannot take the feat multiple times,so once you make magic weapons thats it.

First, where does it say you cannot take Master Craftsman more than once? Feats that do work like that include specific wording to convey that restriction. I do not see that text in the description of this feat.

Second, it is irrelevant for the reasons I have already given. There is no need to take it twice (unless you seriously want the additional +2 to another skill/profession, attainable by other means to be sure) as you are free to take either, OR BOTH, Crafting feats (Arms & Armor and Wondrous) once Master Craftsman has been taken. You qualify for both using the same skill ranks.

I hope that clears things up a bit. Admittedly, the "crafting" rules are a bit of a mess (IMO) and could use some serious FAQ/Errata/Rewriting.

The best thing to do is house rule crafting/enchanting to match your game/world/balance and remember to have fun!

Cheers

Dark Archive

Lord oKOyA wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Thirdly, you technically cannot take the feat multiple times,so once you make magic weapons thats it.

First, where does it say you cannot take Master Craftsman more than once? Feats that do work like that include specific wording to convey that restriction. I do not see that text in the description of this feat

You cant take ANY feat multiple times unless it explicitly says you can


Quote:
Similarly, the fighter who has the skill ranks, takes the Master Craftsmen feat and selects Craft Arms and Armor, is NOT required to forge the sword he intends to enchant.

He IS required to use Craft: weapons in order to place the enchantment on the sword.

Master Craftsman

Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.

Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.

Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.

Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.

Its tied to a skill. I choose craft: Weaponsmithing. I must use craft : weaponsmithing to enchant magic weapons. I cannot use craft: weaponsmithing to enchant armor or even bows because its not on the allowed list of skills including in the magic item description.


Magicdealer wrote:

Sorry, spellcraft doesn't work.

I guess you could try taking Craft: Spellcraft, but it's pretty clear that the feat requires a craft skill, not a skill that mentions crafting :p

I'm not a smart man, so I really am going to need you to take me...STEP BY STEP...through the chain of logic that leads you to the conclusion that a skill that has "craft" in its name, and then specifically states that it is used to "craft" something, is NOT a "craft" skill.

Are we both speaking the English language? Is there some section of the Core Rulebook that I failed to read that specifically states that SpellCRAFT (emphasis mine) is not a craft skill? Have the developers released some bit of errata that specifically states this? Where, EXACTLY, are you getting your information?


Sieglord wrote:
Magicdealer wrote:

Sorry, spellcraft doesn't work.

I guess you could try taking Craft: Spellcraft, but it's pretty clear that the feat requires a craft skill, not a skill that mentions crafting :p

Okay.

1. Craft is a specific skill with subskills stated in it's description.
2. Spellcraft is not one of them.

There ya go. Just like how the feat weapon focus isn't a weapon despite having it in it's name, or how an orc double axe doesn't have fangs and a bad hygiene.

Dark Archive

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Name Violation wrote:
You cant take ANY feat multiple times unless it explicitly says you can

Citation?

As I read the rules, the "Feat Descriptions" definition section writes:

PRD wrote:
Benefit: What the feat enables the character (“you” in the feat description) to do. If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description.

Meaning that there is usually no benefit to taking a feat multiple times as the benefits don't stack. Not that you cannot take a feat multiple times.

Using BigNorseWolf's interpretation of the Master Craftsman feat (which I obviously don't ascribe to) it is then reasonable to assume that the feat could be taken twice and applied to separate crafting skills.

However, it is my position that the text that usually states that a feat can be taken twice and applied to different crafting skills is missing here, is due to the fact that the Master Craftsman feat isn't as restrictive as he suggests.

Dark Archive

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Quote:
Similarly, the fighter who has the skill ranks, takes the Master Craftsmen feat and selects Craft Arms and Armor, is NOT required to forge the sword he intends to enchant.
He IS required to use Craft: weapons in order to place the enchantment on the sword.

Again, I disagree. He does not use his crafting skill to enchant the sword. If this were possible why the need for the feat? He uses his Crafts Arms & Armor feat to enchant the sword.

I am curious to know if you restrict your casters in this way. A wizard with the Craft Wondrous feat... do you require him to make skill checks to create the necklace/boots/cape/etc he intends to enchant? Why or why not? The restriction should be applied equally, no?

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Master Craftsman

Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.

Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.

Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.

Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.

Its tied to a skill. I choose craft: Weaponsmithing. I must use craft : weaponsmithing to enchant magic weapons. I cannot use craft: weaponsmithing to enchant armor or even bows because its not on the allowed list of skills including in the magic item description.

I can use bolding to place emphasis on a different section of the text to attempt to validate my position too! :) The pluralization of the word feat is referencing the two crafting feats (Arms & Armor AND Wondrous) not the Master Craftsman feat. It also does not say that "You can create magic items using this/these skills". It does say that "You can create magic items using these feats..." Crafting skill creates the sword from scratch. Crafting feats enchant it. They are separate acts.

A wizard handed a masterwork sword can enchant it if he possesses the Craft Arms & Armor feat, regardless of his skill, or lack thereof, in Craft (weapon-smithing).

Similarly, the fighter who met the pre-requisite and qualified for Craft Arms & Armor via the Master Craftsman feat can enchant a sword regardless of his skill, or lack thereof, in Craft (weapon-smithing).

The Master Craftsman feat simply allows the non-caster to qualify for the two item creation feats and use his skill ranks as a substitute for CL. Nothing more.

This is what the feat states, anything else is interpretation. I understand how you come to your conclusions, as I would hope you can see of mine.

My final comment would be, to what benefit is your more restrictive interpretation? You seem to deride the Master Craftsman feat as less useful and too restrictive... is it self imposed?

The RAW text is not crystal clear, as is evidenced by this discussion, so allow for rule 0 and do what best suits your game.

Cheers


In the crafting of a magical item either the relevant craft skill can be used or spellcraft:
Magic Item Creation "To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats which allow them to invest time and money in an item's creation. At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with.

Creating Magic Armour "...(Very end of Section)Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft or Craft (armor)."
Craft Weapons ... Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (bows) (for magic bows and arrows), or Craft (weapons) (for all other weapons).
Creating Wondrous Items....Skill Used In Creation: Spellcraft or an applicable Craft or Profession skill check.

So you cannot use Craft Armour skill to make a weapon.

Also the format of the skill Spellcraft is not the same as the other crafting skills namely Craft(Spell)

Dark Archive

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Quote:
Similarly, the fighter who has the skill ranks, takes the Master Craftsmen feat and selects Craft Arms and Armor, is NOT required to forge the sword he intends to enchant.

He IS required to use Craft: weapons in order to place the enchantment on the sword.

Master Craftsman

Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.

Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.

Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.

Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.

Its tied to a skill. I choose craft: Weaponsmithing. I must use craft : weaponsmithing to enchant magic weapons. I cannot use craft: weaponsmithing to enchant armor or even bows because its not on the allowed list of skills including in the magic item description.

Technically you are right, he can't take spellcraft and use it for this feat but he shouldn't do it anyway there are much better options.

Quote:


Master Craftsman

Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.

Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.

I bolded the important part. Don't take ANY craft skill at all take a profession instead. Professions are much more broadly defined and specifically encompass multiple skills.

The best bang for your bucks is to take profession: Tinker.
These are the guys who are responsible for fixing and improving: armor, weapons, jewelry, handicrafts, literally anything you bring them.

Take this profession, then take the item creation feats you want (you CAN take both since tinkers work on everything), buy masterwork quality of whatever you want to enchant and then "tinker" with it.

Legal, effecient, historically accurate and thematically appropriate.

Liberty's Edge

Berselius wrote:
Does anyone think limiting the Master Craftsman feat to just one Craft skill is kinda wrong? Skill ranks are hard enough to allocate for me and as far as I know you can only take Master Craftsman once!

This! Why on earth can't the Master Craftsman feat be taken multiple times? Is it really overpowered to allow a Fighter to spend three feats and max two skills in order to enchant weapons and armor? Especially since any caster can do the same with one feat and one skill (Spellcraft)?

Better yet, why not let Master Craftsman allow you to use any appropriate Craft or Profession skills you possess to make items using a single Item Creation feat? That way you could buy it once (for Craft Magic Arms & Armor), and use your ranks in Craft (Armor), Craft (Bows), and Craft (Weapons). You'd still be expending more resources than a caster to do this.

Lastly, why limit it only to Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item? What about Forge Ring, for example? If your character is a master of the Craft (Jewelry) skill, it seems odd that you could create magical necklaces and broaches, but not a magic ring.

Dark Archive

David Thomassen wrote:

In the crafting of a magical item either the relevant craft skill can be used or spellcraft:

Magic Item Creation "To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats which allow them to invest time and money in an item's creation. At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with.

Creating Magic Armour "...(Very end of Section)Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft or Craft (armor)."
Craft Weapons ... Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (bows) (for magic bows and arrows), or Craft (weapons) (for all other weapons).
Creating Wondrous Items....Skill Used In Creation: Spellcraft or an applicable Craft or Profession skill check.

So you cannot use Craft Armour skill to make a weapon.

Also the format of the skill Spellcraft is not the same as the other crafting skills namely Craft(Spell)

Congrats, you have pointed out one of the inconsistencies in the RAW. :)

The Master Craftsman states you can substitute your skill ranks for CL when creating magic items. The problem is, you do not actually use the creators CL in the process of enchanting something. You use his Spellcraft or the Craft skill score. The only time the caster's CL is relevant is when qualifying for the item creation feats.

If one wants to make the Master Craftman feat entirely useless, it is entirely possible within the RAW. :)


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Quote:
Again, I disagree. He does not use his crafting skill to enchant the sword. If this were possible why the need for the feat? He uses his Crafts Arms & Armor feat to enchant the sword.

Yes, he does use his crafting skill to enchant the sword. The feat does not enchant the sword. Your entire tone has been patronizing to a level that is completely disproportionate to any evidence being offered for your position.

To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats which allow them to invest time and money in an item's creation. At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with. The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a cursed item (see Cursed Items for more information).

This is what master craftsman means when it says You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item

Quote:
I am curious to know if you restrict your casters in this way. A wizard with the Craft Wondrous feat... do you require him to make skill checks to create the necklace/boots/cape/etc he intends to enchant? Why or why not? The restriction should be applied equally, no?

... Yes. I require him to make a Spellcraft skill check (or more rarely, some other skill check)to enchant the item. Have you LOOKED at the item creation rules?

Quote:
The RAW text is not crystal clear, as is evidenced by this discussion, so allow for rule 0 and do what best suits your game.

Raw is crystal clear. People not knowing it or willfully ignoring it doesn't change that.


Lord oKOyA wrote:
David Thomassen wrote:

In the crafting of a magical item either the relevant craft skill can be used or spellcraft:

Magic Item Creation "To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats which allow them to invest time and money in an item's creation. At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with.

Creating Magic Armour "...(Very end of Section)Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft or Craft (armor)."
Craft Weapons ... Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (bows) (for magic bows and arrows), or Craft (weapons) (for all other weapons).
Creating Wondrous Items....Skill Used In Creation: Spellcraft or an applicable Craft or Profession skill check.

So you cannot use Craft Armour skill to make a weapon.

Also the format of the skill Spellcraft is not the same as the other crafting skills namely Craft(Spell)

Congrats, you have pointed out one of the inconsistencies in the RAW. :)

The Master Craftsman states you can substitute your skill ranks for CL when creating magic items. The problem is, you do not actually use the creators CL in the process of enchanting something. You use his Spellcraft or the Craft skill score. The only time the caster's CL is relevant is when qualifying for the item creation feats.

If one wants to make the Master Craftman feat entirely useless, it is entirely possible within the RAW. :)

You still use CL for determining whether you are able to create the magic weapon/armour. +2 weapon needs CL6 (or Craft: Weapon 6 ranks if you are using Master Craftsman), +3 needs a CL9 or 9 ranks in Craft: Weapon and so on.

So surprise, surprise it isn't "entirely useless".

Dark Archive

If my tone has come across as patronizing, then I sincerely apologize. It truly was not my intent. (I even included :) to try and emphasize the tenor of my "tone". Alas I seemed to have failed.)

As for the rules, if you truly believe that the rules regarding item crafting and enchant are crystal clear, then we are miles apart in out thinking and experiences. The sheer number of threads devoted to the subject and our participation here would seem to indicate otherwise.

I remember now why I have been avoiding the rules discussion portion of the forums for a while now. You try and help out, offer a different viewpoint and... well you get what we have here.

Well, thank you for reminding me. I am out.

Cheers


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Quote:
As for the rules, if you truly believe that the rules regarding item crafting and enchant are crystal clear, then we are miles apart in out thinking and experiences.

They're clear on this point

-You need to get the item creation feat

-To enchant it, you either make a spellcraft check or appropriate craft or profession check.

-Master Craftsman lets you get the item creation feat without being a caster, but requires that instead of spellcraft you use the skill you got the +2 bonus to in order to create the item.

Now, if you're reading it somewhat differently I would like to see some cogent argument from the rules to your conclusion, or some demonstration of where the rules don't fit what i said, rather than some vauge appeal to existential nihilism and accusations that I'm house ruling.

I have never seen the need for a skill check to create an item come up as a point of magic item creation. The bizarre, contradictory and confusing requirement rules are what gets argued most of the time.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Thazar wrote:

RAW is pretty clear to me that if you wanted to be able to Craft Armor and Craft Weapons you would have to take master craftsman twice. I think a fair house rule would be to take the feat and for similar craft skills that you have 5+ ranks in you could "spend" the +2 bonus for extra types.

So Master Craftsman with one skill would get a +2 Bonus.

Master Craftsman with a character that can do weapons and armor would have a +1 bonus to Armorsmith and a +1 bonus to Weaponsmith.

Overall it kind of breaks down after that... but no more then the base rules. I mean what exactly do you use your master craftsman skill for on creating wonderous items. Cloth, leather, wood, beads, metal.... In theory you would have to take master craftsman for MANY skills to be able to cover what a spellcaster can get with one feat.

House rules are house rules. You can modify them any way you want but by the book, You take the feat for ONE skill period. And you can only take the feat once as it does not have a stated exception to the general rules about feats.

The Master Craftsman feat was not intended to put Fighters in the wizard's game of crafting magic items, It's intended to give noncaster crafters who ARE generally specialists, a pinnacle to the mastery of their craft.


Sieglord wrote:
Magicdealer wrote:

Sorry, spellcraft doesn't work.

I guess you could try taking Craft: Spellcraft, but it's pretty clear that the feat requires a craft skill, not a skill that mentions crafting :p

I'm not a smart man, so I really am going to need you to take me...STEP BY STEP...through the chain of logic that leads you to the conclusion that a skill that has "craft" in its name, and then specifically states that it is used to "craft" something, is NOT a "craft" skill.

Are we both speaking the English language? Is there some section of the Core Rulebook that I failed to read that specifically states that SpellCRAFT (emphasis mine) is not a craft skill? Have the developers released some bit of errata that specifically states this? Where, EXACTLY, are you getting your information?

Using the same tendentious reading comprehension skills you should be arguing that the feat Master Craftsman can only be taken by males as it doesn't have "woman" in it. Or that only humans can use it because otherwise the feat would be Master Craftsdwarf/elf/halfing etc.

Just because Spellcraft has the word "craft" within it, does not mean Spellcraft is a Craft skill. The very fact that Spellcraft has its own entry and specific description points to that. Specific trumps the general - Spellcraft skill has a specific and individual description. Craft has a more general description and then list the range of possible Craft skills - all of which involve physically making something.

Ideally the feats should have read "enchant" rather than craft as in the normal course of crafting/enchanting a magic item you do not make anything, you merely make an item magical. Using Spellcraft as a skill as part of enchanting an item does not involve actually making the item to be enchanted - nothing within the description suggests you are actually making the item to be enchanted. That is what the specific Craft skills are for.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

I have never seen the need for a skill check to create an item come up as a point of magic item creation. The bizarre, contradictory and confusing requirement rules are what gets argued most of the time.

+1.

I long for the good old days of "what does pre-requisite actually mean", "which requirements can I avoid with a +5 DC" and so on..... ;-)

Dark Archive

Just so I am clear. I apologize for a perceived affront, and you respond by continuing to attack my character? Flinging retaliatory accusations and essentially saying that my experiences and opinions are wrong? And basically calling me stupid...

Tell me again who is not acting like a gentleman?

Liberty's Edge

Lord oKOyA wrote:

Just so I am clear. I apologize for a perceived affront, and you respond by continuing to attack my character? Flinging retaliatory accusations and essentially saying that my experiences and opinions are wrong? And basically calling me stupid...

Tell me again who is not acting like a gentleman?

Unless someone has removed a post, I don't see where anyone is attacking your character, or is calling you stupid.


I like this custom ruling on the the feat in question much MUCH better to be frank. It makes it easier than having to purchase the same feat for each type of craft or profession skill over and over again:

Master Craftsman
Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.

Prerequisites: At least 2 Craft or Profession skills with at least 5 ranks each.

Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on any Craft or Profession skill you possess 5 ranks or more in. Ranks in such skills count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats; substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the appropriate craft or profession skill for the check to create the specified item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.

Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.

Also, if anyone just a little peeved that the Dwarven racial bonus on crafting stone, metal, and gemstone items is gone?


The item creation stuff is a headache... life would be much simpler if they had used two terms, something like 'requirement' for the essentials like the feat, (and the spell in the case of wands, scrolls and potions) and 'component' for things that inflicted the +5 penalty, such as needed CL, spells, and those weird conditionals like "be an elf."


The way I see it.

Craft Arms and Armor lets you use Spellcraft or some other appropiate skill to enchant weapons and armor.

Master craftsman lets you use ranks in a craft skill to qualify for crafting feats and you must use that craft skill when enchanting.

In essence, your crafting skill takes the place of spellcraft.

Thus, I can have 10 ranks in craft: weaponsmith, I can take craft wonderous items, forge ring, and craft arms and armor. I can enchant armor +1, make a +1 ring, a cloak of resist +1, but I would use craft: weaponsmith to enchant it.

It doesn't really make sense, but that seems to be how it works in the RAW.


Charender wrote:

The way I see it.

Craft Arms and Armor lets you use Spellcraft or some other appropiate skill to enchant weapons and armor.

Master craftsman lets you use ranks in a craft skill to qualify for crafting feats and you must use that craft skill when enchanting.

In essence, your crafting skill takes the place of spellcraft.

Thus, I can have 10 ranks in craft: weaponsmith, I can take craft wonderous items, forge ring, and craft arms and armor. I can enchant armor +1, make a +1 ring, a cloak of resist +1, but I would use craft: weaponsmith to enchant it.

It doesn't really make sense, but that seems to be how it works in the RAW.

Master Craftsman does not allow you to take Forge Ring.

If you want to craft a magic cloak you would need to have specified the craft skill to which you are tying your Master Craftsman feat - Craft: Weaver perhaps - and then take Craft Wonderous Item.

Nothing in the Master Craftsman feat description suggests you can use Craft: Weaponsmith to do anything than create magic weapons.

You can only use one craft skill as the basis for qualifying for Master Craftsman and subsequently either Craft Magic Arms and Armour or Craft Wonderous Item.


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Gallo wrote:
Charender wrote:

The way I see it.

Craft Arms and Armor lets you use Spellcraft or some other appropiate skill to enchant weapons and armor.

Master craftsman lets you use ranks in a craft skill to qualify for crafting feats and you must use that craft skill when enchanting.

In essence, your crafting skill takes the place of spellcraft.

Thus, I can have 10 ranks in craft: weaponsmith, I can take craft wonderous items, forge ring, and craft arms and armor. I can enchant armor +1, make a +1 ring, a cloak of resist +1, but I would use craft: weaponsmith to enchant it.

It doesn't really make sense, but that seems to be how it works in the RAW.

Master Craftsman does not allow you to take Forge Ring.

If you want to craft a magic cloak you would need to have specified the craft skill to which you are tying your Master Craftsman feat - Craft: Weaver perhaps - and then take Craft Wonderous Item.

Nothing in the Master Craftsman feat description suggests you can use Craft: Weaponsmith to do anything than create magic weapons.

You can only use one craft skill as the basis for qualifying for Master Craftsman and subsequently either Craft Magic Arms and Armour or Craft Wonderous Item.

Then ignore that part about rings, that was beside my point. My point is that by RAW the craft skill you use doesn't have to have anything to do with the actualy thing being enchanted.

I could have 6 ranks in Profession:Harlot, take Master Craftsman for Profession: Harlot, get Craft Arms and Armor, and I can use my skill as a Harlot to craft a +2 sword.

Grand Lodge

Charender wrote:


Then ignore that part about rings, that was beside my point. My point is that by RAW the craft skill you use doesn't have to have anything to do with the actualy thing being enchanted.

I could have 6 ranks in Profession:Harlot, take Master Craftsman for Profession: Harlot, get Craft Arms and Armor, and I can use my skill as a Harlot to craft a +2 sword.

This is when your GM should be stepping in and saying, I do not allow it. Because to allow this would be pure violation of the spirit of the rule. It just seems that it should be common sense. Don't you think so?


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Aeshuura wrote:
Charender wrote:


Then ignore that part about rings, that was beside my point. My point is that by RAW the craft skill you use doesn't have to have anything to do with the actualy thing being enchanted.

I could have 6 ranks in Profession:Harlot, take Master Craftsman for Profession: Harlot, get Craft Arms and Armor, and I can use my skill as a Harlot to craft a +2 sword.

This is when your GM should be stepping in and saying, I do not allow it. Because to allow this would be pure violation of the spirit of the rule. It just seems that it should be common sense. Don't you think so?

Helen of Troy had a face that launched a thounsand ships and started one of the best known wars in history, are you saying that, in a fantasy world, the blessing of her beauty couldn't enchant a sword?

Joking aside, yes, I would probably rule zero it, but by RAW it is legal. More importantly by RAW you could use craft: armorsmith to enchant weapons, and all wonderous items as well as armor. This makes the mastercrafts man feat a little better than it seems at first glance.

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