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I would like to see a Companion called Paladins of Golarion.
By my count we have at most 9 deities who could support Paladins, and not each of these would definitely do so.
If the number of actual Paladin orders is less than 9, such a book could devote 2 pages to each order or orders as some deities might have need for separate orders.
I would love to see a Code of Conduct for each different order, with suggested class choices; for example the Paladin of Torag should choose a weapon for Divine Bond since the God of the Forge would be pro weapon, if you take my meaning.
If you begin looking at more obscure Deities and the Empyreal Lords, for example the Dwarven deities of which many could support Paladins you will begin to add more and more possible orders, but the Faith section of the Companion could be all about how to work in these more obscure orders based on or attached to the more prominent orders.
Paladins could always use a broader spell selection, more specialized for the class instead of mostly leeching cleric spell. Use the Magic section for this.
To further distinguish the different orders of Paladins use the Combat section for feats with prerequisites of this or that order.
Use the Persona for support NPCs as normal, squires, spiritual advisors, spies, whatever a Paladin needs to do the job.
The Social section is all about what Paladins do for fun.
Oh and the front and back inside covers could be used to highlight the class much like Dwarves of Golarion did.
I am not suggesting the all classes should receive the Companion treatment.
It should cover the cavalier as well - but this comes close to class-based splat books, something that Paizo has said they'd like to avoid.
However, I do like the idea. And since I like splat books, I'm all for it :)
Probably should include some of the prestige classes in there for good measure. Seems like the swashbuckler and eldritch knight are good candidates - and aren't there going to be prestige classes in the APG?
What about something that focuses more on how members of any sort of class can fight on behalf of their god?
I am not suggesting the all classes should receive the Companion treatment.
I'll just point out that *everyone* thinks their favorite class should get its own book, and isn't suggesting that all classes should have to get one. :p
I'll just point out that *everyone* thinks their favorite class should get its own book, and isn't suggesting that all classes should have to get one. :p
Spot on.
Though I'd like to see companion books for *all* the classes (though, please, in groupings. Frankly, I liked all the Complete books).
And there's the rub. So suppose Paizo decides to make companion books for all the classes. We're looking at 17 books. So clearly we won't have 17 books. That means that they will be grouped in some manner.
So what class gets the awesomeness first, and which classes have to wait years for their awesomeness? Obviously this is a problem.
My solution: to heck with the players. Let's have more GM awesomeness and let the players wait :)
In all seriousness, however, I remember the issues I've hear folks talk about with the timing of the complete books. By the time Complete Scoundrel came out in 2007, they'd been waiting years while the fighters had been enjoying all their cool stuff since 2003.
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I am not suggesting the all classes should receive the Companion treatment.I'll just point out that *everyone* thinks their favorite class should get its own book, and isn't suggesting that all classes should have to get one. :p
Ah ha! Ok how about you, the man responsible for write-ups of nearly countless deities(Boccob and Asmodeus come to mind as just awesome work), tackle, in some form or another, just the Codes of Conduct for Paladins from different Golarion Deities? I understand that Codes of Conduct are a touchy subject for any campaign setting and are frequently better left to "GM's discretion". But, given the talent at Paizo who better tackle such a project?
Thanks for the flattering response.
If we were to publish a book where such content was appropriate, I assure you I'd be the guy to write it. :)
I'll just point out that *everyone* thinks their favorite class should get its own book, and isn't suggesting that all classes should have to get one. :pSpot on.
Though I'd like to see companion books for *all* the classes (though, please, in groupings. Frankly, I liked all the Complete books).
And there's the rub. So suppose Paizo decides to make companion books for all the classes. We're looking at 17 books. So clearly we won't have 17 books. That means that they will be grouped in some manner.
So what class gets the awesomeness first, and which classes have to wait years for their awesomeness? Obviously this is a problem.
FWIW, as a way of finding a compromise that addressed this issue, I thought that WoTC was onto something with books like Sword and Fist, Sound and Silence, etc., that dealt with a grouping of classes instead of an individual class. Granted, the execution fell short of the ideal.
FWIW, as a way of finding a compromise that addressed this issue, I thought that WoTC was onto something with books like Sword and Fist, Sound and Silence, etc., that dealt with a grouping of classes instead of an individual class. Granted, the execution fell short of the ideal.
They did the same thing with the Complete books; none were single-class oriented. Even so, the full cycle took WoTC something like 5 years.
Creative Director
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While a companion about each of the classes is an interesting idea... the tricky part is that there are 11 classes. 17 if you count the six new base classes (and you probably should). We publish 6 companions a year. Even if we only published class-based companions, it'd take us three years to get all 17 of those classes done, by which point we'd likely have some NEW base classes that needed to be covered, and by which point all of the Companion subscribers who like the fact that the Companion line covers things other than one subject will have moved on. At best, I'd say we'd be able to do 3 classes a year, so the other 3 Companions could cover things like locations and races and other stuff just to keep things varied, at which point we're talking over half a decade to cover all the classes. No matter how we prioritize the order in which these books come out, some folks will end up having to wait a LOOOOONG time for their favorite class to get some attention.
As a result, something like "Paladins of Golarion" is VERY unlikely to show up as a companion volume anytime soon.
But how would folks feel about something like "Crusaders of Golarion" or "Holy Warriors of Golarion" or "Knights of Golarion," that would focus not on one class but one GENRE of class, so that you'd be getting some info not just about paladins, but ALL classes who could, say, "count" as a crusader (such as paladins, fighters, clerics, and cavaliers)?
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For me it would depend a lot on the purpose/guts of the book. If the books primary function is to provide ideas and flavor for those types of characters, this could be an interesting book that I would likely pick up. If it consisted of a large portion of new feats, abilities, splat book type stuff, than I would have no interest in it.
I think much better than a "Paladins of Golarion" or a "Knights of Golarion" would be something like an "Orders of Golarion", which would detail various orders of Paladins, Monks, Clerics, perhaps even a Hellknight order...
That said, I'd MUCH rather see Pathfinder Companions detailing some of the other nations (Ustalav comes to mind especially).
While a companion about each of the classes is an interesting idea... the tricky part is that there are 11 classes. 17 if you count the six new base classes (and you probably should). We publish 6 companions a year. Even if we only published class-based companions, it'd take us three years to get all 17 of those classes done, by which point we'd likely have some NEW base classes that needed to be covered ...
Really? This surprises me - I thought earlier commentary about the APG said that you guys were trying to avoid adding base classes and these would probably be the last ones ...
As a result, something like "Paladins of Golarion" is VERY unlikely to show up as a companion volume anytime soon.
But how would folks feel about something like "Crusaders of Golarion" or "Holy Warriors of Golarion" or "Knights of Golarion," that would focus not on one class but one GENRE of class, so that you'd be getting some info not just about paladins, but ALL classes who could, say, "count" as a crusader (such as paladins, fighters, clerics, and cavaliers)?
That is entirely what I'd like to see. But unlike CD8D, I don't want to be paying $20 for a book of flavor. I have a bookcases full of flavor - I want something a lot like Complete Champion - some flavor, but a lot of rules. In fact, I'm not entirely sure I like the "of Golarion" thing - I rather see a non-Golarion-specific "Tome of Honor - The Book of Crusaders and Holy Warriors" before I see one so closely tied to Golarion.
Then Iavi can keep getting his region-specific books :)
But how would folks feel about something like "Crusaders of Golarion" or "Holy Warriors of Golarion" or "Knights of Golarion," that would focus not on one class but one GENRE of class, so that you'd be getting some info not just about paladins, but ALL classes who could, say, "count" as a crusader (such as paladins, fighters, clerics, and cavaliers)?
PLEASE start working on that NOW :) And do it Companion-style, a ton of fluff and the right dose of crunch. Can't wait!
I would like to see something that expands on fighting style schools that are found around Golarion. At the top of my head, I recall the class option for the fighter where he traded in his bonus 1st level feat to pick up more skills as the fighter came from a fighting school. It would be nice to see 3 to 5 level PrCs akin to a talent tree specializing on a fighting style either by movement or weapon speciality. That would go in well with the flavor of your Crusaders/Knights/Warriors of Golarion proposition. A good recommendation of what I'm referencing would be found in Paradigm Games' Players Guide to Arcanis.
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Creative Director
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While a companion about each of the classes is an interesting idea... the tricky part is that there are 11 classes. 17 if you count the six new base classes (and you probably should). We publish 6 companions a year. Even if we only published class-based companions, it'd take us three years to get all 17 of those classes done, by which point we'd likely have some NEW base classes that needed to be covered ...Really? This surprises me - I thought earlier commentary about the APG said that you guys were trying to avoid adding base classes and these would probably be the last ones ...
The feedback and excitement we've seen regarding the 6 base classes in APG are making us reconsider, basically. We'll see. We have no plans at this time to add more base classes, but we're not as closed about the concept as we were several months ago when we weren't sure how the idea of more base classes would really go over.
The feedback and excitement we've seen regarding the 6 base classes in APG are making us reconsider, basically. We'll see. We have no plans at this time to add more base classes, but we're not as closed about the concept as we were several months ago when we weren't sure how the idea of more base classes would really go over.
So maybe we'll see a ninja class yet :)
I'm all for more base classes, personally. So I think this is good news.
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But how would folks feel about something like "Crusaders of Golarion" or "Holy Warriors of Golarion" or "Knights of Golarion," that would focus not on one class but one GENRE of class, so that you'd be getting some info not just about paladins, but ALL classes who could, say, "count" as a crusader (such as paladins, fighters, clerics, and cavaliers)?
I like the sound of that but it now sounds more like a Pathfinder Chronicle than a Companion, and like I said in my OP I really want Paizo to publish actual Paladin codes and as someone added Chaveiler Codes. But once we have codes there is no reason fighters and clerics would not strive to follow these codes also, of course the Paladins are still the ones who never compromise lifting them above the rest.
Such a book should very light on crunch.
But how would folks feel about something like "Crusaders of Golarion" or "Holy Warriors of Golarion" or "Knights of Golarion," that would focus not on one class but one GENRE of class, so that you'd be getting some info not just about paladins, but ALL classes who could, say, "count" as a crusader (such as paladins, fighters, clerics, and cavaliers)?
Since you ask...
I would probably buy it, but I would prefer that they were grouped differently.
I'd rather see all the "holy warrior" divine casters grouped together (cleric, druid, paladin, ranger), all the arcane casters grouped together (bard, sorcerer, wizard), and all the non-spellcasters (barbarian, fighter, monk, rogue) grouped together. I didn't mention the new classes because I'm not familiar with them, but I would include them too.
EDIT: if you do this, when you get to the arcane casters' book, can you either a) explain why sorcerers and wizards are the only classes that have the exact same spell lists, or b) give them spells that the other class doesn't possess? I know this wasn't your design choice, but if they are different classes, I say make them DIFFERENT.
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Perhaps there could be a way to get out new stuff on all the classes (rules, flavor, as well as variants ect) at once?
For instance, the APs there are the small descriptions of class/races for the setting. What if, instead of having "Complete X" with a focus for any particular type of character/group of classes, why not include information for each of the classes based on region?
I mean its something that already kind of exists (as I think of it at least) in the APs. I read the descriptions of races to get an idea of what the background of my character is going to be, Half-Orcs in Katapesh have a slightly different treatment than Westcrown, which is going to be different than Riddleport. Same thing with classes.
With this each book is not a "Complete guide" by any means, but there can be something for everyone, as well as further detailing Golarion. I would be highly interested in books like this, and instead of buying dozens of ways to play several classes in one book, you could have a few different ones in every book, as well as having a context in which to apply why your character is different.
Different locales are going to have different customs and codes, a Paladin from Cheliax is probably going to have a slightly different outlook on his life than say a Paladin from Korvosa. A cleric of Irori from Katapesh will probably have a slightly different perspective on their god than a cleric of Irori from Osirion.
I think this could ease waiting for 3 years for your particular class/group of classes to come out with their own book. I think it could help people out with how they play their Society characters as well!
Different locales are going to have different customs and codes, a Paladin from Cheliax is probably going to have a slightly different outlook on his life than say a Paladin from Korvosa. A cleric of Irori from Katapesh will probably have a slightly different perspective on their god than a cleric of Irori from Osirion.
We do tend to do this... in the books on Cheliax, Osirion, and so on.
But how would folks feel about something like "Crusaders of Golarion" or "Holy Warriors of Golarion" or "Knights of Golarion," that would focus not on one class but one GENRE of class, so that you'd be getting some info not just about paladins, but ALL classes who could, say, "count" as a crusader (such as paladins, fighters, clerics, and cavaliers)?
I think that genre books are MUCH more interesting than a book for each class, especially if the focus is on fluff rather than crunch. What I don't want is something like the "Complete" books where you have a multitude of new PrCs, feats, spells, and so on. I'm not saying that the books should be totally void of crunch, I think the current mix in the Companions is just right.
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But how would folks feel about something like "Crusaders of Golarion" or "Holy Warriors of Golarion" or "Knights of Golarion," that would focus not on one class but one GENRE of class, so that you'd be getting some info not just about paladins, but ALL classes who could, say, "count" as a crusader (such as paladins, fighters, clerics, and cavaliers)?
This is along the same lines as certain 3.5 books, and their expert handling of genre based PC information. I particularly loved and drew extensively from "Masters of the Wild" in a wilderness campaign I ran which covered barbarians, druids and rangers. Not a long book, paperback, 96pp. It had tons of background for wilderness characters and is still one of my favorite supplements. I have updated some of it for my PF game.
Books like this don't need to be huge tomes. It just had wildness background, a handful of prestige classes and a few specific wilderness feats. I have all those particular 3.5 genre paperbacks and found them far more useful than the hard bound "Complete ... " series that appeared later.
Go for it. Flavor and background, keep rule changes to a minimum so you don't have to spend ages playtesting everything for balance before publication.
Just my take on Genre publications. As I haven't yet bought heavily into Golarion it could even be a generic (non-Golarion specific PF product).
Just my take.
But how would folks feel about something like "Crusaders of Golarion" or "Holy Warriors of Golarion" or "Knights of Golarion," that would focus not on one class but one GENRE of class, so that you'd be getting some info not just about paladins, but ALL classes who could, say, "count" as a crusader (such as paladins, fighters, clerics, and cavaliers)?
I'd still rather see books that show how members of any class can adopt a particular thematic archetype.
Paladins would be a little problematic for "Assassins of Golarion" but maybe not so much for "Bountyhunters".
"Crusaders of Golarion" could look at those who fight for causes including, but not limited to, deities.
"Explorers of Golarion".
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I would like to see something that expands on fighting style schools that are found around Golarion. At the top of my head, I recall the class option for the fighter where he traded in his bonus 1st level feat to pick up more skills as the fighter came from a fighting school. It would be nice to see 3 to 5 level PrCs akin to a talent tree specializing on a fighting style either by movement or weapon speciality. That would go in well with the flavor of your Crusaders/Knights/Warriors of Golarion proposition. A good recommendation of what I'm referencing would be found in Paradigm Games' Players Guide to Arcanis.
You should find some things very much to your liking when the APG comes out in August.
I would like to see something that expands on fighting style schools that are found around Golarion. At the top of my head, I recall the class option for the fighter where he traded in his bonus 1st level feat to pick up more skills as the fighter came from a fighting school. It would be nice to see 3 to 5 level PrCs akin to a talent tree specializing on a fighting style either by movement or weapon speciality. That would go in well with the flavor of your Crusaders/Knights/Warriors of Golarion proposition. A good recommendation of what I'm referencing would be found in Paradigm Games' Players Guide to Arcanis.You should find some things very much to your liking when the APG comes out in August.
[Quagmire] Giggidy Giggidy Giggidy! [/Quagmire]
Really? This surprises me - I thought earlier commentary about the APG said that you guys were trying to avoid adding base classes and these would probably be the last ones ...The feedback and excitement we've seen regarding the 6 base classes in APG are making us reconsider, basically. We'll see. We have no plans at this time to add more base classes, but we're not as closed about the concept as we were several months ago when we weren't sure how the idea of more base classes would really go over.
I hope the end result of the reconsideration will be "No."
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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[Quagmire] Giggidy Giggidy Giggidy! [/Quagmire]I would like to see something that expands on fighting style schools that are found around Golarion. At the top of my head, I recall the class option for the fighter where he traded in his bonus 1st level feat to pick up more skills as the fighter came from a fighting school. It would be nice to see 3 to 5 level PrCs akin to a talent tree specializing on a fighting style either by movement or weapon speciality. That would go in well with the flavor of your Crusaders/Knights/Warriors of Golarion proposition. A good recommendation of what I'm referencing would be found in Paradigm Games' Players Guide to Arcanis.You should find some things very much to your liking when the APG comes out in August.
Oh, tone it down to maybe only two Giggidy's. I'm just saying you should like some of the things in there. It may not be exactly what you describe, but... I think it's close enough that it'll do the job just as well or maybe even be a better approach to solving the problem.
Oh, tone it down to maybe only two Giggidy's. I'm just saying you should like some of the things in there. It may not be exactly what you describe, but... I think it's close enough that it'll do the job just as well or maybe even be a better approach to solving the problem.
** spoiler omitted **
But how would folks feel about something like "Crusaders of Golarion" or "Holy Warriors of Golarion" or "Knights of Golarion," that would focus not on one class but one GENRE of class, so that you'd be getting some info not just about paladins, but ALL classes who could, say, "count" as a crusader (such as paladins, fighters, clerics, and cavaliers)?
This gets my vote.
Sean and James,
Now that we've seen where the companion line isnt likely to go where do you see this line going in the future?
Masters of the Wild in Golarion
I would enjoy a Classes companion line