Jasper Phillips |

Stone Shape says it has an area of 10 cubic feet + 1 cubic foot/level, which at minimum casting level (7) is a brick approximately 2'x2'x4'...

This seems exceedingly small for a 4th level spell!

Is it intended to be 10' + 1'/level in each dimension? So at 7th level it'd be 17'x17'x17' -- 4913 cubic feet?

Father Dale |

No, you had it right the first time.

Sure, 17 cubic feet isn't really a lot of volume. Thats less than most refrigerators.

But consider the purpose of the spell. Its for opening/closing holes in stone walls or making stone doors. Its not for turning boulders into houses (although several castings could do that). Consider that most stone walls in the game will have a thickness in inches, and the 'area' of such a wall that can be affected becomes quite large. Even against a stone wall a foot thick an 8th level caster could affect a 3'x6' area, which is enough to open a space for a person to easily walk through.

Also, consider how this spell interacts with Wall of Stone.

Jasper Phillips |

Still seems weak for a 4th level spell, especially since stone walls are generally at least a foot thick. It is a 3rd level spell for Druids and Clerics though, which is a bit better.

Making openings doesn't seem like a great use -- consider that a 5'x5'x1' chunk of wall has 8 Hardness and ~23 Hit points (as per pg 411 of the core rules). Your typical 7th level fighter will Power Attack through that in one or two Full Attack actions with a Maul or Pick Axe.

I suppose a more interesting use would be to make something, perhaps part of a building's construction.

cwslyclgh |

Making openings doesn't seem like a great use -- consider that a 5'x5'x1' chunk of wall has 8 Hardness and ~23 Hit points (as per pg 411 of the core rules). Your typical 7th level fighter will Power Attack through that in one or two Full Attack actions with a Maul or Pick Axe.

how are you getting about 23 HP, a 10x10x1 foot thick hewn stone wall should have 180 HP and so I wouldn't think a 5x5x1 section would not have any less then 90 (note that stones HP is actually measured by the thickness [15 HP per inch] and not the surface area, so I don't think by the RAW you would divide it for only being a 5x5 rather then a 10x10).

Ravingdork |

Is it intended to be 10' + 1'/level in each dimension? So at 7th level it'd be 17'x17'x17' -- 4913 cubic feet?

Yes.

If it was meant to mean what some of these other posters are saying, several spells (like shrink item) would be nearly completely worthless in their application.

Here's the definition:

**cubic foot:** (noun) the volume equal to a cube one foot on each side

cwslyclgh |

ravingdork, following your definition a 7th level caster would get 17 cubic feet or a box 17 feet long by one foot high by one foot wide... or a box two feet high by two feet wide by a little over 4 feet long exactly as Jasper concluded above, and the one we are telling his is correct.

17 cubic feet is not the same as a cube 17 feet across.

Ravingdork |

ravingdork, following your definition a 7th level caster would get 17 cubic feet or a box 17 feet long by one foot high by one foot wide... or a box two feet high by two feet wide by a little over 4 feet long exactly as Jasper concluded above, and the one we are telling his is correct.

17 cubic feet is not the same as a cube 17 feet across.

17 cubic feet means 17 x 17 x 17 feet, or 17 feet in each dimension. It's in all my math books, plus my family agrees that I got it right.

Mynameisjake |

17 cubic feet means 17 x 17 x 17 feet, or 17 feet in each dimension. It's in all my math books, plus my family agrees that I got it right.

Leaving your family out of it, your math book does NOT say that.*

1 foot is a line 1 foot in length. 17 feet is 17 of these units.

1 sq. foot is 1 foot in length and 1 foot in width. 17 square feet is 17 of these units.

1 cubic foot is a cube with 1 foot in every dimension. 1 foot long, 1 foot wide, 1 foot high. 17 cubic feet is seventeen cubes of 1 cubic foot.

*Unless it was written by the Texas School Board. They kicked Thomas Jefferson out of the Founding Fathers, so anything is possible.

Gorbacz |

plus my family agrees that I got it right.

Best. Online. Discussion. Argument. Ever !

And for the note, 17 cubic somethings (being a continental European I refuse to accept the existence of those weird hoojoo Imperial measurements) means 17 cubes. And actually, your definition:

cubic foot: (noun) the volume equal to a cube one foot on each side

Says exactly that, and 17 cubic feet are 17 volumes equal to a cube one foot on each side. :)

mdt |

Stone Shape says it has an area of 10 cubic feet + 1 cubic foot/level, which at minimum casting level (7) is a brick approximately 2'x2'x4'...

This seems exceedingly small for a 4th level spell!

Is it intended to be 10' + 1'/level in each dimension? So at 7th level it'd be 17'x17'x17' -- 4913 cubic feet?

Just to add another wrinkle to the argument...

From reading it, it could be read as 10' + 1' per level. Which would put it at 7th level as 77 cubic feat. ;)

That's not the way it should be interpreted, obviously, but it could be just to add to the general hubbub.

Actually, that's not too bad a number, somewhere in between the correct interpretation (which is all but useless for actually making holes in walls given the actual dimensions of most practical dungeons) and the ungodly amount of space the alternate reading would make it (17 cubed, way too much).

7th level : 77 cubic feat (approx 4.25x4.25x4.25)

10th level : 110 cubic feat (approx 4.8x4.8x4.8)

20th level : 220 cubic feat (approx 6x6x6)

KenderKin |

Stone shape could also be used to remove stone from around a large chunk of stone, creating a much larger hole than is being calculated.

Basically you need to create trenchs around that are likely hand-wide and one foot deep, lets make that a 1X1X1 trench so that 17 cubic feet would make a big door, there would just be a big piece left over...

Ravingdork |

Are you guys thinking of 17 feet^3 (or 17 feet cubed)?

My math major friend tells me that, that is entirely different from 17 cubic feet.

The former would make up a 17x1x1' shape (or a different iteration with the same volume). The latter would make up a 17x17x17' shape.

Furthermore, I asked this exact question (that of the OP) to the v3.5 game designers a long time ago, and they confirmed that I was right.

If I can track that response down, I will post it for you.

EDIT: Did some online research and found some web sites that seem to support your interpretations as to what "X cubic feet" actually means.

Therefore, I propose that the game designers' INTENT is as per my interpretation, but the RAW (which I believe to be incorrectly written) is as per your interpretation.

wraithstrike |

Are you guys thinking of 17 feet^3 (or 17 feet cubed)?

My math major friend tells me that, that is entirely different from 17 cubic feet.

The former would make up a 17x1x1' shape (or a different iteration with the same volume). The latter would make up a 17x17x17' shape.

Furthermore, I asked this exact question (that of the OP) to the v3.5 game designers a long time ago, and they confirmed that I was right.

If I can track that response down, I will post it for you.

EDIT: Did some online research and found some web sites that seem to support your interpretations as to what "X cubic feet" actually means.

Therefore, I propose that the game designers' INTENT is as per my interpretation, but the RAW (which I believe to be incorrectly written) is as per your interpretation.

I took it as 17 cubic feet not 17 cubed. If the original designers meant 17 cubed they worded it incorrectly.

The spell does say cubic feet.

Ravingdork |

*lures Ravingdork close...*

*BONK*What a dork...

17^3 = 17 feet cubed :)

Um...I know that. That's what I said. My friend tells me that, that is different from 17 cubic feet, which is what the rules state.

EDIT: That is, the rules use the words "cubic feet" rather than "feet cubed."

Ravingdork |

A poster on another forum says that the math major I spoke with has the two terms reversed, that 17 cubic feet means the theoretical 17x1x1 configuration and that 17 feet cubed means the 17x17x17 configuration.

If that is the case, do you think the game designers might have mixed them up too?

wraithstrike |

A poster on another forum says that the math major I spoke with has the two terms reversed, that 17 cubic feet means the theoretical 17x1x1 configuration and that 17 feet cubed means the 17x17x17 configuration.

If that is the case, do you think the game designers might have mixed them up too?

The poster is correct. The math major is wrong.

Mynameisjake |

EDIT: Did some online research and found some web sites that seem to support your interpretations as to what "X cubic feet" actually means.

Support our interpretation? There is no **interpretation**. This is not some rules argument where everyone is entitled to their own opinion. A cubic foot has a very specific definition. That definition is not open to debate. You were wrong. Now, just do what an adult does and say, "Oopsy, I was wrong about that," and move on.

Edit: For brevity

Ravingdork |

Ravingdork wrote:

Support our interpretation? There is no

interpretation. This is not some rules argument where everyone is entitled to their own opinion. A cubic foot has a very specific definition. That definition is not open to debate. You were wrong. Now, just do what an adult does and say, "Oopsy, I was wrong about that," and move on.Edit: For brevity

Yes, my interpretation appears to be wrong. That doesn't change the fact that it was my interpretation.

No need to be mean about it.

wraithstrike |

Ravingdork wrote:

Support our interpretation? There is no

interpretation. This is not some rules argument where everyone is entitled to their own opinion. A cubic foot has a very specific definition. That definition is not open to debate. You were wrong. Now, just do what an adult does and say, "Oopsy, I was wrong about that," and move on.Edit: For brevity

It's the internet. Everything is open for debate. <runs away>

Ravingdork |

Mynameisjake wrote:It's the internet. Everything is open for debate. <runs away>Ravingdork wrote:

interpretation. This is not some rules argument where everyone is entitled to their own opinion. A cubic foot has a very specific definition. That definition is not open to debate. You were wrong. Now, just do what an adult does and say, "Oopsy, I was wrong about that," and move on.Edit: For brevity

It also doesn't help that MyNameIsJake has hated me since the beginning and looks for every chance to demean/yell at me he can find.

Marcus Aurelius |

A poster on another forum says that the math major I spoke with has the two terms reversed, that 17 cubic feet means the theoretical 17x1x1 configuration and that 17 feet cubed means the 17x17x17 configuration.

If that is the case, do you think the game designers might have mixed them up too?

I guess I'm a bit thick but I was under the impression that 17x1x1 is still 17

Mistwalker |

Ravingdork wrote:I guess I'm a bit thick but I was under the impression that 17x1x1 is still 17If that is the case, do you think the game designers might have mixed them up too?

I believe that Ravingdork was saying:

17 cubic feet = 17 cubes of 1x1x1.

17 feet cubed = 1 cube that is 17x17x17.

Language variables :)

sort of like:

Let's eat grampa

vs

Let's eat, grampa

Ravingdork |

I believe that Ravingdork was saying:

17 cubic feet = 17 cubes of 1x1x1.

17 feet cubed = 1 cube that is 17x17x17.Language variables :)

sort of like:

Let's eat grampa

vs

Let's eat, grampa

That's exactly what I've been saying (after the first couple of posts anyways).

Notice how the second one is a much, much larger volume? I believe that once to be the designers' intent (even though RAW clearly says otherwise).

Clarification: I am referring to the v3.5 game designers. The Pathfinder game designers didn't write the rule, they simply pulled it over from v3.5 and thus the text didn't change and the error never fixes. If the Paizo staff comes in here and declares what THEIR intent is (either way), I'll abide by their ruling in my Pathfinder games.

I still find it odd though that a 20th-level wizard can only shrink something the size of a large chest.

Marcus Aurelius |

Marcus Aurelius wrote:Ravingdork wrote:I guess I'm a bit thick but I was under the impression that 17x1x1 is still 17If that is the case, do you think the game designers might have mixed them up too?

I believe that Ravingdork was saying:

17 cubic feet = 17 cubes of 1x1x1.

17 feet cubed = 1 cube that is 17x17x17.Language variables :)

sort of like:

Let's eat grampa

vs

Let's eat, grampa

Makes sense. The English language can be very vexing ;)

0gre |

You can do more than you think at first

17 cubic feet is enough to create a 2" thick wall 10'x10'. Not enough to totally stop an enemy but it's enough to delay them for a round or two (Hardness 8, 30HP). You can use repeated castings to thicken it further.

If you just need to cross a chasm and not everyone has fly 17 cubic feet can make a 3' wide bridge that is 3" thick and 20 feet long. More than strong enough to allow horses to cross.

Mabven the OP healer |

As many sensible people have said, 17 cubic feet = 17'x1'x1', or other permutations which equal 17. I think you underestimate the use of the spell, as many useful things can be done with it. Take the following example:

You come across a fairly nasty monster in a room with one opening and no doors. You use stoneshape to create a large enough pillar across the opening to stop it's movement, even by squeezing, and also to create murder-holes for each of your party members, so that you can launch arrows at it with no danger to yourself until the creature is able to do enough damage to the pillar to destroy it.

Mynameisjake |

Things I've seen/done with stone shape:

Seal a sarcophagus to prevent a vampire in gaseous form from entering.

Make a "murder hole" in a floor or wall to cast fireballs through.

Encase an evil magic item in stone to prevent it from affecting the party.

Create a very deep latrine.

Repair a leaking damn/viaduct.

Create a very large, thin wall to block line of sight/effect.

Pretend to be Moses.

Create instant catapult ammo.

Collapse a bridge. And a cottage. And a pier.

Topple a giant statue.

Hollow a giant boulder to use as an observation post (requires multiple castings).

Ravingdork |

Just thought of this, this morning:

It seems that most everyone can agree that 1 cubic foot gives us a cube with 1 foot on a side and that 12 cubic feet is NOT a 12x12x12 foot cube.

So answer me this: How come 12 cubic inches ISN'T a 12x12x12 inch cube?

Shouldn't 12 cubic inches give us the exact same cube as 1 cubic foot? Mathematically, doing it in inches gives us a much smaller cube. Why is that?

EDIT: Feel free to discuss it anyways, but I think I figured it out of my own.

Doug's Workshop |

Just thought of this, this morning:

It seems that most everyone can agree that 1 cubic foot gives us a cube with 1 foot on a side and that 12 cubic feet is NOT a 12x12x12 foot cube.

So answer me this: How come 12 cubic inches ISN'T a 12x12x12 inch cube?

Shouldn't 12 cubic inches give us the exact same cube as 1 cubic foot? Mathematically, doing it in inches gives us a much smaller cube. Why is that?

EDIT: Feel free to discuss it anyways, but I think I figured it out of my own.

One cubic foot (1'x1'x1') is 1728 cubic inches.

12 one-inch cubes does not make, and has never made, one cubic foot.

TLO3 |

Ravingdork wrote:Just thought of this, this morning:

It seems that most everyone can agree that 1 cubic foot gives us a cube with 1 foot on a side and that 12 cubic feet is NOT a 12x12x12 foot cube.

So answer me this: How come 12 cubic inches ISN'T a 12x12x12 inch cube?

Shouldn't 12 cubic inches give us the exact same cube as 1 cubic foot? Mathematically, doing it in inches gives us a much smaller cube. Why is that?

EDIT: Feel free to discuss it anyways, but I think I figured it out of my own.

One cubic foot (1'x1'x1') is 1728 cubic inches.

12 one-inch cubes does not make, and has never made, one cubic foot.

Right... when converting units you need to take into account dimensions.

1 foot = 12 inches

1 foot^3 = 12^3 inches^3

0gre |

Just thought of this, this morning:

So answer me this: How come 12 cubic inches ISN'T a 12x12x12 inch cube?

EDIT: Feel free to discuss it anyways, but I think I figured it out of my own.

Mathematically you need to learn about volume.

A quick google gives me this page which might help.

A cube one inch to a side is a cubic inch 12 of these cubes are 12 cubic inches and can be stacked in a row 1" wide by 1" tall by 12 inches deep.

A cube 12" to a side is one cubic foot or 12^3 = 1728 cubic inches.

SanguineRooster |

Just thought of this, this morning:

So answer me this: How come 12 cubic inches ISN'T a 12x12x12 inch cube?

EDIT: Feel free to discuss it anyways, but I think I figured it out of my own.

Are you seriously just going to change the units to inches instead of feet and make them have this WHOLE argument again? You complain about Mynameisjake picking on you... but I'm having a damn hard time not getting nasty about this and I consider myself a fairly kind person.

Ravingdork |

Are you seriously just going to change the units to inches instead of feet and make them have this WHOLE argument again?

Mathematics is my weakest subject. I truly didn't understand why it wasn't converting at first.

It was not my intention to rehash anything. I was merely asking why it didn't seem to add up.

Luckily, I was able to figure out that it was simply a problem with my math (as it often is) and answered my own question.

No deviousness behind it at all.

SanguineRooster |

SanguineRooster wrote:Are you seriously just going to change the units to inches instead of feet and make them have this WHOLE argument again?Mathematics is my weakest subject. I truly didn't understand why it wasn't converting at first.

It was not my intention to rehash anything. I was merely asking why it didn't seem to add up.

Luckily, I was able to figure out that it was simply a problem with my math (as it often is) and answered my own question.

No deviousness behind it at all.

It could be much worse. The biggest math nerd I play with is really heavily focused on powergaming his characters, while the writing major just focuses on making his really f***ing cool. I'd much rather fall in the latter category.

Mynameisjake |

Are you seriously just going to change the units to inches instead of feet and make them have this WHOLE argument again? You complain about Mynameisjake picking on you... but I'm having a damn hard time not getting nasty about this and I consider myself a fairly kind person.

Hey, leave me out of it!

Edit: And for the record, when I first "encountered" the 'Dork on the 3.5 WOTC boards, I went to great lengths to try and answer his questions, even going so far as to defend him to other, less... "gentle" ...board members. His subsequent behavior quickly disabused me of any such inclinations. Now I do my best to ignore him. But sometimes....

Marcus Aurelius |

Just thought of this, this morning:

So answer me this: How come 12 cubic inches ISN'T a 12x12x12 inch cube?

EDIT: Feel free to discuss it anyways, but I think I figured it out of my own.

It's all about the **units of measure** you are applying and how you convert them 12"x12"x12" is 1728 cubic inches.

Get a cube block of balsa wood measuring 1'x1'x1' and divide each side into grid 12"x12". Now carefully cut each lengthways. This will give you 12"x12"x1" layers. Next take each layer and cut lengthways again so that you now have 144 12"x1"x1" sticks. Now cut each of the sticks into 12 equal segments.

Now you will notice that you have a lot of little cubes 1"x1"x1". They may not be a perfect inch because you will lose a little bit of wood by sawing them.

Count each little block and you will find there are 1728 1"x1"x1" blocks. It's quite magical really.

Now take twelve of your 1" blocks and study them - this is what is meant by 12 cubic inches which you will notice is not the same thing at all as 12"x12"x12" cube. You can shape them into some interesting 3D shapes but you will never make them into 12"x12"x12" cube because you don't have enough.

Now if you can be bothered to put them all back together like they were before you cut up the original block you will have a 12"x12"x12" block. Which in feet (because we are changing the unit of measure is a 1'x1'x1' block.

Ravingdork |

It's all about the

units of measureyou are applying and how you convert them 12"x12"x12" is 1728 cubic inches.Get a cube block of balsa wood measuring 1'x1'x1' and divide each side into grid 12"x12". Now carefully cut each lengthways. This will give you 12"x12"x1" layers. Next take each layer and cut lengthways again so that you now have 144 12"x1"x1" sticks. Now cut each of the sticks into 12 equal segments.

Now you will notice that you have a lot of little cubes 1"x1"x1". They may not be a perfect inch because you will lose a little bit of wood by sawing them.

Count each little block and you will find there are 1728 1"x1"x1" blocks. It's quite magical really.

Now take twelve of your 1" blocks and study them - this is what is meant by 12 cubic inches which you will notice is not the same thing at all as 12"x12"x12" cube. You can shape them into some interesting 3D shapes but you will never make them into 12"x12"x12" cube because you don't have enough.

Now if you can be bothered to put them all back together like they were before you cut up the original block you will have a 12"x12"x12" block. Which in feet (because we are changing the unit of measure is a 1'x1'x1' block.

This example is actually much easier for me to wrap my mind around. Thank you for posting it.

Marcus Aurelius |

This example is actually much easier for me to wrap my mind around. Thank you for posting it.

You're very welcome. Sometimes it's easier to visualize things with a physical example in math because English is an easy language to confuse people with because it isn't precise. I used to use 1"x1" cubes on my game board to illustrate similar things to my players for 3D purposes.

This is also useful when calculating the effects of 3D spreads, emanations, cones etc from spells cast. The rules in Pathfinder only discuss 2D planar models for spells, but this assumes everyone is roughly around medium and smaller. It doesn't account for creatures flying above the area of effect or that are taller than the effect. For large creatures a poison inhalation gas may or may not effect then because their breathing apparatus might stand above the area of effect. In these cases it's up to the GM to make rulings based on guesswork. There's actually a discussion about 3D combat going on at the moment that might interest you.

Just wait until you a encounter a 12"(to power of 4) solids. Then you have to include time in your calculations as the cubes become different cubes depending on a given 12-point (some unit) increment in time!! Don't worry I doubt you'd ever encounter these. Once you venture beyond 4 dimensions it can be calculated theoretically on paper but is impossible to visualise because we don't exist in five dimensions (ie, 12 identical parallel existences exactly the same as the one we live in now. This plumbs the realms of theoretical math and way beyond the needs of the gamer. LOL.

HungryGnome |

Here is a thought:

A 10th level caster has 20 cubic feet to work with.... now, if we convert this into 1 inch x 1 ft x 1 ft. slabs, we now have 240 of said slabs to work with...

If the DM would allow a little creative usage of the spell in this aspect, as this requires a little adjucation on the spells effects, you can affect more than you think..

If we assume the average dungeon wall to be 1 ft. thick, if you affect the stone AROUND what you really want to carve, then you can make some remarkably large openings, with some debris left over...

If you take a wall, and chose to affect 1 in. wide, by 1 ft. deep sections, you have 240 linear feet at this point to work with. If you use 5 ft. vertically, 5 ft horizontally, and another 5 ft vertically again, and once again 5ft horizontal, forming a square, you have only used 20ft of your 240.. and you have carved a 5ft block out of a 1ft. thick wall. Now intersect that wall through both axis ( 2 more 5 ft. lines in a plus shape) and you have used all of 30 ft to carve 4 x 2.5ft square blocks, which are MUCH easier to move by hand. Now keep extending this off the original, and a 10th level caster could cut a hole in a wall 5 ft high and 45 ft long!!!!

But you have these little blocks of stone left over,at 2.5ft on a side ( 2.5 ft CUBED, or 15.625 cubic ft.) which can be stacked into a remarkably easy wall, which with another casting, you can then fuse back together.. or you can just chop structural walls out of a building until it collapses...

If you are wondering, since the arcane focus says clay shaped into the rough shape of the item to be affected, you make a lattice of clay....