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The SRD wrote: Combat Training (DC 20)
An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel. Training an animal for combat riding takes 6 weeks. You may also “upgrade” an animal trained for riding to one trained for combat by spending 3 weeks and making a successful DC 20 Handle Animal check. The new general purpose and tricks completely replace the animal’s previous purpose and any tricks it once knew. Many horses and riding dogs are trained in this way. (An animal trained in this way counts as trained for war, and becomes proficient with all forms or armor. See FAQs and Animal Type.)
The cavaliers mount ability from the APG final play-test document wrote: The mount is always considered combat trained and begins play with light armor proficiency as a bonus feat.
Which one is right? Does the mount receive all armor proficiencies as normal or does the mount only receive light armor proficiency?
Also, do I have to take the tricks associated with combat training or does the mount gain those in addition to the normal tricks learned?
It makes no sense that someone's horse that they've just bought is going to be better able to wear armour for combat then a Cavalier whose horse is especially bred and trained for combat exclusively.
Besides that the PFSRD entry for cavaliers says nothing about armour for his steed.
You'd have to say that the Core overrules the Playtest, IMHO.
You'd have to say that the Core overrules the Playtest, IMHO.
+1
It makes no sense that someone's horse that they've just bought is going to be better able to wear armour for combat then a Cavalier whose horse is especially bred and trained for combat exclusively.
Besides that the PFSRD entry for cavaliers says nothing about armour for his steed.
You'd have to say that the Core overrules the Playtest, IMHO.
I would assume so, but how abut the "Always considered combat trained" part? Does this force the cavalier to teach his mount the tricks associated with combat training, or does he gain those tricks for free?
If his steed is "always considered combat trained" then as per Core, he gets prof. with all armour.
It makes no sense to say that a 'combat-trained' horse isn't trained in the wearing of barding.
Um. In the core rulebook under combat training nothing is mentioned about armor proficiency.
"combat training (dc 20): An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, guard, and heel. Training an animal for combat riding takes 6 weeks. You may also "upgrade" an animal trained for riding to one trained for combat by spending 3 weeks and making a successful dc 20 Handle Animal check. The new general purpose and tricks completely replace the animal's previous purpose and any tricks it once knew. Many horses and riding dogs are trained this way."
Nowhere does it mention armor proficiency.
This does cause problems for fighters. It's hard to believe that a non-companion mount trained for war wouldn't be proficient with barding.
Um. In the core rulebook under combat training nothing is mentioned about armor proficiency.
"combat training (dc 20): An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, guard, and heel. Training an animal for combat riding takes 6 weeks. You may also "upgrade" an animal trained for riding to one trained for combat by spending 3 weeks and making a successful dc 20 Handle Animal check. The new general purpose and tricks completely replace the animal's previous purpose and any tricks it once knew. Many horses and riding dogs are trained this way."
Nowhere does it mention armor proficiency.
This does cause problems for fighters. It's hard to believe that a non-companion mount trained for war wouldn't be proficient with barding.
Page 307 Bestiary
Second to last line of the Animal type description.or here
I would assume so, but how abut the "Always considered combat trained" part? Does this force the cavalier to teach his mount the tricks associated with combat training, or does he gain those tricks for free?The final playtest pdf for the cavalier clarifies the mount entry more than the first playest pdf and says that the mount comes combat trained.
If you haven't seen the final playtest document you'll want to as the cavalier changes in many ways between the two pdfs.
I was referring to the final playtest pdf, but it still isn't clear to me wether the mount gains the tricks and armor proficiencies associated with combat training for free.
I too am confused with this as it states in the new pdf "The mount is always considered combat trained and begins play with Light Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat." This can be found on page 9.
Um. In the core rulebook under combat training nothing is mentioned about armor proficiency.
"combat training (dc 20): An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, guard, and heel. Training an animal for combat riding takes 6 weeks. You may also "upgrade" an animal trained for riding to one trained for combat by spending 3 weeks and making a successful dc 20 Handle Animal check. The new general purpose and tricks completely replace the animal's previous purpose and any tricks it once knew. Many horses and riding dogs are trained this way."
Nowhere does it mention armor proficiency.
This does cause problems for fighters. It's hard to believe that a non-companion mount trained for war wouldn't be proficient with barding.
Page 307 Bestiary
Second to last line of the Animal type description.
or here
"Proficient with no armor unless trained for war." you mean? That doesn't answer anything. Trained for war isn't a trick listed under handle animal. How do you train it for war?
"Proficient with no armor unless trained for war." you mean? That doesn't answer anything. Trained for war isn't a trick listed under handle animal. How do you train it for war?Um. In the core rulebook under combat training nothing is mentioned about armor proficiency.
"combat training (dc 20): An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, guard, and heel. Training an animal for combat riding takes 6 weeks. You may also "upgrade" an animal trained for riding to one trained for combat by spending 3 weeks and making a successful dc 20 Handle Animal check. The new general purpose and tricks completely replace the animal's previous purpose and any tricks it once knew. Many horses and riding dogs are trained this way."
Nowhere does it mention armor proficiency.
This does cause problems for fighters. It's hard to believe that a non-companion mount trained for war wouldn't be proficient with barding.
Page 307 Bestiary
Second to last line of the Animal type description.
or here
I think one of the designers clarified this in another thread. Basically trained for war and combat training is supposed to be the same thing.
Still, that one statement is not specific enough to make a ruling on proficiency. It doesn't say they become proficient when trained for war, just that if they're not trained for war they definitely don't have the proficiency. Even if you took that leap, what are they proficient with after training? All armor? Only light?
I'm not trying to be difficult, I just think an official ruling needs to be made. There needs to be a clear written way to train a mount to wear armor. Preferably one that doesn't require feats.
Still, that one statement is not specific enough to make a ruling on proficiency. It doesn't say they become proficient when trained for war, just that if they're not trained for war they definitely don't have the proficiency. Even if you took that leap, what are they proficient with after training? All armor? Only light?
I'm not trying to be difficult, I just think an official ruling needs to be made. There needs to be a clear written way to train a mount to wear armor. Preferably one that doesn't require feats.
That's why I started this thread ;)
If you look at the excerpts from my original post you will see the wording as quoted from the PFSRD and the APG final playtest document.
In the srd it states that combat training indeed grants proficiency in all armor types, while the apg contradicts this as it specifically states that the mount only gain light armor proficiency.
In addition combat training counts as being trained for a specific purpose as per the rules mentioned under the handle animal skill, although to count as combat trained the mount needs to know a specific set of tricks, although it is not clear wether the cavalier's mount gain these tricks for free or if the cavalier have to spend the mounts starting tricks known to allow the mount to be combat trained.
Still, that one statement is not specific enough to make a ruling on proficiency. It doesn't say they become proficient when trained for war, just that if they're not trained for war they definitely don't have the proficiency. Even if you took that leap, what are they proficient with after training? All armor? Only light?
I'm not trying to be difficult, I just think an official ruling needs to be made. There needs to be a clear written way to train a mount to wear armor. Preferably one that doesn't require feats.
James Jacobs says here:
"War trained is actually detailed in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook under the description of "Handle Animal," on page 98. Of course, there it's called "Combat Training." It's one of the "general purpose" trainings you can give an animal. As detailed on page 177 of the Bestiary, horses in particular gain a special benefit once they're combat trained—their hooves are from that point treated as primary weapons, not secondary ones.In any case, once the Cavalier goes to print, the language in the class about "war trained" will be cleaned up"
Which should answer the question :)
And presumably there will be clarification about whether a cavalier's mount is only considered combat trained with regards to just being handled/controlled in combat and having light armour proficiency or having all Combat Trained features as per Handle Animal.
Still, that one statement is not specific enough to make a ruling on proficiency. It doesn't say they become proficient when trained for war, just that if they're not trained for war they definitely don't have the proficiency. Even if you took that leap, what are they proficient with after training? All armor? Only light?
I'm not trying to be difficult, I just think an official ruling needs to be made. There needs to be a clear written way to train a mount to wear armor. Preferably one that doesn't require feats.
James Jacobs says here:
"War trained is actually detailed in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook under the description of "Handle Animal," on page 98. Of course, there it's called "Combat Training." It's one of the "general purpose" trainings you can give an animal. As detailed on page 177 of the Bestiary, horses in particular gain a special benefit once they're combat trained—their hooves are from that point treated as primary weapons, not secondary ones.In any case, once the Cavalier goes to print, the language in the class about "war trained" will be cleaned up"
Which should answer the question :)
And presumably there will be clarification about whether a cavalier's mount is only considered combat trained with regards to just being handled/controlled in combat and having light armour proficiency or having all Combat Trained features as per Handle Animal.
I'm well aware on this as mentioned above, but I still don't see how this answers any of my original questions.
1) Does the cavalier's mount gain proficiency in all armor types for free as per the wording of combat training under the handle animal skill or does the APG playtest pdf supersede this?
2)Does the cavaliers mount gain the tricks mentioned under combat training for free or does he have to learn them from his available tricks known?
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In my use of the Cavalier class I have handled those two questions as follows:
1) The cavalier's mount gains proficiency in all armor types as per the wording of combat training under the handle animal skill.
'The mount is always considered combat trained' ... and 'An animal trained in this way counts as trained for war, and becomes proficient with all forms of armor.'
I treat the language about light armor proficiency in the playtest as surplusage. It doesn't contradict the description of combat training and only leaves out the other types of armor the mount is also proficient in.
2) The tricks mentioned under combat training are the mount's but they count against his available tricks total. As the general purpose 'combat training' has six tricks, the mount must have at least INT 2. He gets a bonus trick at 1st level with the mount since it is an animal companion. Given that all the mounts listed have INT 2, I have allowed my cavalier player to add the bonus trick but to consider the other available slots filled by the combat training tricks.