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I am having a problem with the grapple rules. Namely how monks seem to be insanely good grappling machines that can lock down about any spell caster at will. Here is my issue, I have a monk in my party with a CMD of 30 (that is if you rule he doesn't get an additional +2 from improved grapple when an opponent attempts to break free and he doesn't yet have the +5 for his opponent failing to break free). This 30 is 10 base, 4 from dex, 4 from strength,4 from wis, 7 from base attack, and 1 from monk ac bonus for a total of 30.
He recently fought a cleric main boss lvl 9. She had a CMD of 20. With his grapple CMB of +13 (4 from str, 7 from BA w/maneuver training, and 2 from improved grapple feat) he merely needs a 7 to grab her and when she fails to break out (rolling her CMB of 7 against his CMD of 30), he nows adds as +5 to subsequent checks. On his next turn, he pins her (again he rolls his +13 against her CMD of 20). The party then proceeds to beat her to death as she can't hope to break free of his pin.
Note: no combat casting and no spells prepared without somatic components made it an almost impossible feat to cast a spell.
So, have I missed something or is something broken here? As a second question, if she had a spell legal to cast would she make two concentration checks (one to cast in grapple and the second to cast defensively so the rest of the party couldn't get attacks of op) or just one for both conditions?
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Yeah grapple is a very powerfull ability. I wouldn't say it's broken though. At early levels most foes are rather vulnerable to grapplers. This is eclipsed rather fast by the sheer number of escapes offered by most classes and/or magic items.
A cleric with the freedom domain can't be grappled, neither can anyone with a freedom of movement effect. A flying foe is rather hard to initiate a grapple with. Also if a foe has someone watching his back a grapple is a dual edged sword. In a game I'm playing in we just hit 12 and grappeling is one of the quickest ways to waste a round. (Though we fight alot of groups as single BBEG's tend to get steamrolled unless the DM just breaks the rules)
At early levels most of those can be hard to come by but by level 9 a cleric has many options at their disposal. I hate to sound harsh but it sounds less like a mechanical problem and more that your BBEG fought like a minion.
As to the second question this has come up multiple times with my group and we've always had casters make the 2 rolls.
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Thank you for the quick response. This is my first campaign with the PFRPG rules.
To be fair the BBEG in questions was from a 3.5 Adventure Path. I have found little trouble aside from minor tweaks made on the fly with running it as is for the most part. The first real snag is this whole grapple deal. I have already been thinking of things to change on these characters to make them less easily dominated by this one ability. Any other suggestions you have in this manner would be greatly appreciated.
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Well you're doing the right thing by going back and tweaking.
One thing I noticed from some old adventures I had lying around is that tripping, grappeling and the like were so rule intensive most players and DM's never used them back in 3.x. Now I have to plan for a dual wielding ranger's cat companion wrestling a foe while he shreds it and a bard who fell in love with a whip trip/attack combo.
Best advice I can give you is this. Every class got more tools to throw at mobs so don't worry about holding back. Also enough has changed in the rules that you can never take for granted how things work now. (Like after killing off roughly 50 undead in a massive crypt crawl we realized you CAN crit undead now. I cried.)
Edit: Welcome to PFRPG! I was hesitant to pick it up since I own almost every 3.5 book but it all converts well and the new stuff is awesome. Happy gaming. =D
The cleric probably shouldn't have been alone.
Just saying.
If she summoned some friends or just made some friends, living or dead, to be in with her on her combat, she wouldn't have bit the dust so quick and so simply.
The problem is the same with moves like Color Spray and Sleep and Hold Person... one bad save (a failed CMB check to break free from the grapple) and the bad guy is done for. So... no problems with grappling there.
Just have more than one enemy on the field.
BTW, maybe I haven´t looked close enough - is there any limitation on the type of creatures you can grapple? (apart from high CMDs).
I can not see any size restriction in the grapple description, no "immune to grapple" at the incorporal subtype and so on. I only thing I found was the freedom of movement effect. Anything else???
Looks strange to me that you could grapple e.g. incorporal undead but I can not find a reference...
EDIT: ok, found it - always looked at the creature type instead of the Universal Monster rules...
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Thank you for the quick response. This is my first campaign with the PFRPG rules.
To be fair the BBEG in questions was from a 3.5 Adventure Path. I have found little trouble aside from minor tweaks made on the fly with running it as is for the most part. The first real snag is this whole grapple deal. I have already been thinking of things to change on these characters to make them less easily dominated by this one ability. Any other suggestions you have in this manner would be greatly appreciated.
Note that the spellcaster would have been almost as powerless to break free in 3.5, so this isn't really a 3.5 vs. Pathfinder issue.
My 2 cents: let the grappling guy have his moment in the spotlight. There will be plenty of encounters in the future where grappling isn't a good option.
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My 2 cents: let the grappling guy have his moment in the spotlight. There will be plenty of encounters in the future where grappling isn't a good option.
The spotlight? I only posted this for some help after a whole session of "monk chooses bad guy to grapple keeping him from doing anything while party deals with lesser threats, then party all turns and easily kills grappled bad guy who can't hope to beat the monk." Grapple is more powerful in PFRPG due to the pin mechanic, which I assume is why PFRPG came up with spells and abilities that completely neutralize grapples.
The problem is the same with moves like Color Spray and Sleep and Hold Person... one bad save (a failed CMB check to break free from the grapple) and the bad guy is done for. So... no problems with grappling there.
The difference here is that the BBEG's save would have at worst around a 50% chance of success, with the example above, only a 20 would get out of his grapple. And to cast a spell (even if she had any without somatic or material components memorized) she would need a really high roll is she was a 3.5 character without combat casting. As I said before, I feel anyone who is adapting a 3.5 adventure to pathfinder definetly needs to look at grapple mitigation and not run BBEGs as is.
My 2 cents: let the grappling guy have his moment in the spotlight. There will be plenty of encounters in the future where grappling isn't a good option.
The spotlight? I only posted this for some help after a whole session of "monk chooses bad guy to grapple keeping him from doing anything while party deals with lesser threats, then party all turns and easily kills grappled bad guy who can't hope to beat the monk." Grapple is more powerful in PFRPG due to the pin mechanic, which I assume is why PFRPG came up with spells and abilities that completely neutralize grapples.
The difference here is that the BBEG's save would have at worst around a 50% chance of success, with the example above, only a 20 would get out of his grapple. And to cast a spell (even if she had any without somatic or material components memorized) she would need a really high roll is she was a 3.5 character without combat casting. As I said before, I feel anyone who is adapting a 3.5 adventure to pathfinder definetly needs to look at grapple mitigation and not run BBEGs as is.The problem is the same with moves like Color Spray and Sleep and Hold Person... one bad save (a failed CMB check to break free from the grapple) and the bad guy is done for. So... no problems with grappling there.
IF the monk grapples a melee monster it can still make full attacks, and the monk takes an AC penalty. If it is a caster the monk still has to get to the caster. Do you have an BBEG examples from a publish campaigned where a monk shut someone down(details if you do). If it happened in your own games there are ways to stop that, or at least stop it from happening at the beginning of the fight.
The spotlight? I only posted this for some help after a whole session of "monk chooses bad guy to grapple keeping him from doing anything while party deals with lesser threats, then party all turns and easily kills grappled bad guy who can't hope to beat the monk." Grapple is more powerful in PFRPG due to the pin mechanic, which I assume is why PFRPG came up with spells and abilities that completely neutralize grapples.
My 2 cents: let the grappling guy have his moment in the spotlight. There will be plenty of encounters in the future where grappling isn't a good option.
Why is the Pin mechanic more powerful in PFRPG than in 3.5? I don't think it is.
What spells and abilities to neutralize grapples does PFRPG have that 3.5 doesn't have? I can't think of any.
As other folks have suggested, it's hard to prevent a party of PCs from ganging up on a single spellcaster (whether in PFRPG or in 3.5), so adding some minions might help the situation.
Agreed - pinning is not new.
Also, you're dealing with a Monk who has 18 each in Str, Dex, and Wisdom, vs. a Cleric who has only +4 between Str, Dex, and Deflection bonuses. That is physically overwhelming. If the cleric had had Divine Power or Shield of Faith up, it would have been a much more even fight.
Agreed - pinning is not new.
Also, you're dealing with a Monk who has 18 each in Str, Dex, and Wisdom, vs. a Cleric who has only +4 between Str, Dex, and Deflection bonuses. That is physically overwhelming. If the cleric had had Divine Power or Shield of Faith up, it would have been a much more even fight.
To add onto this a buffed up cleric is not easy to grapple depending on his level. Having an alarm spell somewhere in the castle/stronghold allows him to buff up with spells, scrolls, and potions. There is also a feat that allows you to use your HD as your BAB for the purpose of CMD. I give this to my casters now since I have druid, and being grappled as a low BAB caster, usually means the fight is over.
Grappling is now about the same to do, but harder to break because many defenses now apply. Your monk is a good example of how to build a grappler, and it needs 3 high stats to be good. The Cleric was a good example of someone weak to grapple: lone opponent, low str, not picking defenses that exist, and not having any of the buff spells that would help him already cast. Scissors meets paper. Considering that the monk can't even kill the Cleric alone, just disable him, I don't think this is a huge issue.
And the pin mechanic didn't change much since 3.5. If you were as much better than your opponent in 3.5 as this monk is to the Cleric in question, it would have resulted in much the same result. The Cleric would have had a slightly higher chance of breaking the grapple, thought the monk would have been doing damage and pinning.
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Except that Divine Power (which she had cast) no longer gives bonuses to str just str checks and str based skills. Unlike 3.5. where it gave a str bonus.
What I am saying is that to run a 3.5 AP in PFRPG you need to take a long look at grapple mitigation. I.E. every caster needs combat casting feat at a minimum.
And as I said before, the cleric was just the point it came to ahead. THe monk had been doing this all session with anybody he chose.
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Grappling is now about the same to do, but harder to break because many defenses now apply. Your monk is a good example of how to build a grappler, and it needs 3 high stats to be good. The Cleric was a good example of someone weak to grapple: lone opponent, low str, not picking defenses that exist, and not having any of the buff spells that would help him already cast. Scissors meets paper. Considering that the monk can't even kill the Cleric alone, just disable him, I don't think this is a huge issue.
And the pin mechanic didn't change much since 3.5. If you were as much better than your opponent in 3.5 as this monk is to the Cleric in question, it would have resulted in much the same result. The Cleric would have had a slightly higher chance of breaking the grapple, thought the monk would have been doing damage and pinning.
I don't know where you come to this conclusion. In 3.5 this Monk with improved grapple would have str 4 + BA 5 + improved grapple +4 = 13
Cleric would have str 1 + BA 5 + divine power 3 = 9 a four point difference to break a pin or grapple.In this example from PFRPG, after the monk gets his + 5 circumstance he needs a 6 on the die to pin the cleric and the cleric then with her CMB of 7 vs. his CMD of 35 means evn a 20 won't do it unless 20 always succeeds.
So to summarize 3.5 opposed rolls Cleric + 9 vs. Monk 13 to break pin
PFRPG a +7 must roll a 35 to break out of the pin
Don't get me wrong, in every other way than this I have found PFRPG to be superior to 3.5 but the fact that there are now ways to completely make yourself immune to grapple shows me that Paizo realized grapple is extremely powerful and people had to have ways to completely mitigate it.
Short on time, so quick notes:
Cleric has BAB +6
PF Divine Power would at least help on CMB, if not on CMD.
3.5 grappler probably would have been a Fighter with 7 BAB (leaving about a 22% chance of failing the grapple).
I don't know where you come to this conclusion. In 3.5 this Monk with improved grapple would have str 4 + BA 5 + improved grapple +4 = 13
Cleric would have str 1 + BA 5 + divine power 3 = 9 a four point difference to break a pin or grapple.
The relative difference is correct, but attack bonus wasn't used in 3.5 grapple checks (just Str + size vs. Str + size, basically). You used to get a substantial bonus from Enlarge Person (a net +5 to grapple checks), so that was a very common buff for grapplers in my experience. YMMV.
EDIT: This is wrong -- attack bonus was used in 3.5 grapple checks. I was probably thinking about trip attempts or something like that.
In this example from PFRPG, after the monk gets his + 5 circumstance he needs a 6 on the die to pin the cleric and the cleric then with her CMB of 7 vs. his CMD of 35 means evn a 20 won't do it unless 20 always succeeds.
While it's true that the cleric can't succeed except on a 20, wouldn't the level 9 cleric have a CMB of +10 (+1 Str, +6 BAB, +3 luck bonus to attack rolls)?
So to summarize 3.5 opposed rolls Cleric + 9 vs. Monk 13 to break pin
PFRPG a +7 must roll a 35 to break out of the pin
Yes, but in 3.5 breaking a pin wouldn't end the grapple (it just ends the pin), whereas it does in PFRPG. You used to need two successful grapple checks to break a pin.
Don't get me wrong, in every other way than this I have found PFRPG to be superior to 3.5 but the fact that there are now ways to completely make yourself immune to grapple shows me that Paizo realized grapple is extremely powerful and people had to have ways to completely mitigate it.
The crux of the matter (to me) is that grappling is not very useful in general. There's one situation where it's extremely useful -- when you're fighting a single spellcaster and your friends are there to beat on him. So if the monk keeps encountering spellcasters with Freedom of Movement, his Improved Grapple feat could end up being useless.
Hogarth: 3.5 did use BAB in Grapple calculation. But you're right, size made a huge difference.
I also think it still takes two checks to break from pinned to free.
Hogarth: 3.5 did use BAB in Grapple calculation. But you're right, size made a huge difference.
Oops, I stand corrected.
Grappling is now about the same to do, but harder to break because many defenses now apply. Your monk is a good example of how to build a grappler, and it needs 3 high stats to be good. The Cleric was a good example of someone weak to grapple: lone opponent, low str, not picking defenses that exist, and not having any of the buff spells that would help him already cast. Scissors meets paper. Considering that the monk can't even kill the Cleric alone, just disable him, I don't think this is a huge issue.
And the pin mechanic didn't change much since 3.5. If you were as much better than your opponent in 3.5 as this monk is to the Cleric in question, it would have resulted in much the same result. The Cleric would have had a slightly higher chance of breaking the grapple, thought the monk would have been doing damage and pinning.
I don't know where you come to this conclusion. In 3.5 this Monk with improved grapple would have str 4 + BA 5 + improved grapple +4 = 13
Cleric would have str 1 + BA 5 + divine power 3 = 9 a four point difference to break a pin or grapple.
In this example from PFRPG, after the monk gets his + 5 circumstance he needs a 6 on the die to pin the cleric and the cleric then with her CMB of 7 vs. his CMD of 35 means evn a 20 won't do it unless 20 always succeeds.So to summarize 3.5 opposed rolls Cleric + 9 vs. Monk 13 to break pin
PFRPG a +7 must roll a 35 to break out of the pinDon't get me wrong, in every other way than this I have found PFRPG to be superior to 3.5 but the fact that there are now ways to completely make yourself immune to grapple shows me that Paizo realized grapple is extremely powerful and people had to have ways to completely mitigate it.
+9 vs +13... you realize that is the same as CMD20 vs +13 if the cleric rolls average. 3.5 has more variance on success, but the average is roughly the same. The monk now only gets 1 attempt to set up a grapple and needs a feat to pin and do damage. In 3.5, the monk would get 3 attempts to grapple in 1 round, and if he succeeded on the first one he would also be able to pin. Thus never giving your cleric a chance.
Now, instead of offensive spells buffing your grapple defensive ones do too. You need both. Shield of Faith would have granted a +3 to the cleric's CMD (not sure if the 20 has a deflection bonus in there, but pretty sure it doesn't) while divine Favor would have granted +3 to his CMB.
Finally, the anti-grapple abilities are not new to Pathfinder. They existed in 3.5 and were just as necessary.
Just to be clear here, you have a 10th level monk with an 18-19 Str, Dex, and Wis, and your problem is that you successfully, easily grappled a level 9 cleric?
7th level Monk. Monks use their level for CMD and CMB.
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The crux of the matter (to me) is that grappling is not very useful in general. There's one situation where it's extremely useful -- when you're fighting a single spellcaster and your friends are there to beat on him. So if the monk keeps...
And in this 3.5 AP as I have stated (I don't want to put any spoilers in here). There were two lone spell casters in seperate rooms with no grapple mitigation factored in to help them. One of my main points is to warn others adapting 3.5 adventures to PFRPG to always keep grapple mitigation in mind.
Also, luck bonuses don't factor into CMB.
To clarify for last knight, the monk is lvl 7 even if you dropped his stats to 14s for all three you are still looking at a + 13 CMB vs. a CMD of 29 or needing a 17 or higher to break a pin.
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Just to be clear here, you have a 10th level monk with an 18-19 Str, Dex, and Wis, and your problem is that you successfully, easily grappled a level 9 cleric?7th level Monk. Monks use their level for CMD and CMB.
Um no, Monks only use their level for CMB, not CMD. In order to have a +7 BAB on CMD they'd have to be level 10.
Maneuver Training (Ex): At 3rd level, a monk uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus when calculating his . Base attack bonuses granted from other classes are unaffected and are added normally.
Reading the OP it sounds like a mistake was made and the maneuver training was applied to both CMB and CMD
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+9 vs +13... you realize that is the same as CMD20 vs +13 if the cleric rolls average. 3.5 has more variance on success, but the average is roughly the same. The monk now only gets 1 attempt to set up a grapple and needs a feat to pin...
Yes, you are correct those are the same thing but that is all the monk needs to do to get ahold of the cleric. She on the other hand has to roll a 35 with a +7 to break free after he gets her.
In other words: His turn: +13 to roll a 20 to pin her
Her turn: + 7 to roll a 35 to break free
Divine power no longer gives any bonus to help with CMB as it doesn't add to str score or BAB
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The crux of the matter (to me) is that grappling is not very useful in general. There's one situation where it's extremely useful -- when you're fighting a single spellcaster and your friends are there to beat on him. So if the monk keeps...And in this 3.5 AP as I have stated (I don't want to put any spoilers in here). There were two lone spell casters in seperate rooms with no grapple mitigation factored in to help them. One of my main points is to warn others adapting 3.5 adventures to PFRPG to always keep grapple mitigation in mind.
Also, luck bonuses don't factor into CMB.
To clarify for last knight, the monk is lvl 7 even if you dropped his stats to 14s for all three you are still looking at a + 13 CMB vs. a CMD of 29 or needing a 17 or higher to break a pin.
See previous post, a level 7 monk with all 14s would have a CMD of 10+2+2+2+1+5 or 22. 22-9=13 which is a decent chance to escape. The issue is that your player calculated his CMD wrong. Also you gave him powerful stats against a premade module character which isn't built assuming everyone has god like stats.
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Just to be clear here, you have a 10th level monk with an 18-19 Str, Dex, and Wis, and your problem is that you successfully, easily grappled a level 9 cleric?7th level Monk. Monks use their level for CMD and CMB.Um no, Monks only use their level for CMB, not CMD. In order to have a +7 BAB on CMD they'd have to be level 10.
Maneuver Training (Ex): At 3rd level, a monk uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus when calculating his . Base attack bonuses granted from other classes are unaffected and are added normally.Reading the OP it sounds like a mistake was made and the maneuver training was applied to both CMB and CMD
It amounts to the same cause he gets to add his wisdom bonus and his monk AC bonus to his CMD so although manuever training doesn't give it to him, he effectively adds his level. In this monks case, it amounts to the same.
Divine power no longer gives any bonus to help with CMB as it doesn't add to str score or BAB
My understanding is that all combat maneuver checks are attack rolls and so they benefit from anything that benefits attack rolls.
From the PRD:
"When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects."
And in this 3.5 AP as I have stated (I don't want to put any spoilers in here). There were two lone spell casters in seperate rooms with no grapple mitigation factored in to help them. One of my main points is to warn others adapting 3.5 adventures to PFRPG to always keep grapple mitigation in mind.
I agree, that's a good thing to watch out for. Having two big fights in a row turn into anti-climaxes is probably not that fun for everyone involved.
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Divine power no longer gives any bonus to help with CMB as it doesn't add to str score or BABMy understanding is that all combat maneuver checks are attack rolls and so they benefit from anything that benefits attack rolls.
From the PRD:
"When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects."
That makes a little more sense then but under the CMB section the formula is listed as BA + Str Mod + special size mod
the problem is there appears to be a contradiction with the formula and the text. I like adding all modifiers as it makes more sense.
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It amounts to the same cause he gets to add his wisdom bonus and his monk AC bonus to his CMD so although manuever training doesn't give it to him, he effectively adds his level. In this monks case, it amounts to the same.Just to be clear here, you have a 10th level monk with an 18-19 Str, Dex, and Wis, and your problem is that you successfully, easily grappled a level 9 cleric?7th level Monk. Monks use their level for CMD and CMB.Um no, Monks only use their level for CMB, not CMD. In order to have a +7 BAB on CMD they'd have to be level 10.
Maneuver Training (Ex): At 3rd level, a monk uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus when calculating his . Base attack bonuses granted from other classes are unaffected and are added normally.Reading the OP it sounds like a mistake was made and the maneuver training was applied to both CMB and CMD
No it doesn't, the problem here is that you have a character with high stats, and a miscalculated CMD vs. a cleric with average stats and no defenses. Of course you're looking at a slaughter. His CMD is 28 which is still high, but that's because of his stats. If every stat you apply to an equation provides a large bonus, of course you're going to have a high check that will trounce anyone who isn't similarly beefed up. You have Hulk Hogan wrestling Bill Gates and you're upset that Hulk is easily trouncing Bill?
+9 vs +13... you realize that is the same as CMD20 vs +13 if the cleric rolls average. 3.5 has more variance on success, but the average is roughly the same. The monk now only gets 1 attempt to set up a grapple and needs a feat to pin...
Yes, you are correct those are the same thing but that is all the monk needs to do to get ahold of the cleric. She on the other hand has to roll a 35 with a +7 to break free after he gets her.
In other words: His turn: +13 to roll a 20 to pin her
Her turn: + 7 to roll a 35 to break free
Divine power no longer gives any bonus to help with CMB as it doesn't add to str score or BAB
Add any bonus that you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects
its in the combat section down where they explain CMB. Divine Power/Favor does grant him a bonus.
In 3.5, if I was running a monk I would have grappled and pinned the cleric as soon as I got a chance. Hopefully, my wizard friend would have cast enlarge person on me, and then the cleric would have never escaped with my additional +5. It wouldn't have gone much differently, except the bonuses other people got against us would have been worse.
To clarify for last knight, the monk is lvl 7 even if you dropped his stats to 14s for all three you are still looking at a + 13 CMB vs. a CMD of 29 or needing a 17 or higher to break a pin.
Or just 12 or higher before that +5 comes into play. That's not bad at all. Let's use 16's (instead of 18's or 14's)
All told, only 27% chance to grapple and keep pinned for 2 rounds.
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No it doesn't, the problem here is that you have a character with high stats, and a miscalculated CMD vs. a cleric with average stats and no defenses. Of course you're looking at a slaughter.It amounts to the same cause he gets to add his wisdom bonus and his monk AC bonus to his CMD so although manuever training doesn't give it to him, he effectively adds his level. In this monks case, it amounts to the same.Just to be clear here, you have a 10th level monk with an 18-19 Str, Dex, and Wis, and your problem is that you successfully, easily grappled a level 9 cleric?7th level Monk. Monks use their level for CMD and CMB.Um no, Monks only use their level for CMB, not CMD. In order to have a +7 BAB on CMD they'd have to be level 10.
Maneuver Training (Ex): At 3rd level, a monk uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus when calculating his . Base attack bonuses granted from other classes are unaffected and are added normally.Reading the OP it sounds like a mistake was made and the maneuver training was applied to both CMB and CMD
Apparently we have a misunderstanding let me break down the calculation as I have his character sheet on my computer and apparently to get past this I have to show you everything:
Base 10 + Wis 4 (no other class gets) + Str 2 + Dex 3 + BAB 5 + Monk AC bonus 1 + ROP +1 (deflection bonus gets added) + 5 circumstance bonus to failure to break grapple + improved grapple +2 = 33
So actually, you are right, it doesn't amount to the same, he actually is better off than just having his level be his BAB. No you have the specifics of my calculations if you come up with any discrepancies, I can point in the book where they all factor in.
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To clarify for last knight, the monk is lvl 7 even if you dropped his stats to 14s for all three you are still looking at a + 13 CMB vs. a CMD of 29 or needing a 17 or higher to break a pin.Or just 12 or higher before that +5 comes into play. That's not bad at all. Let's use 16's (instead of 18's or 14's)
55% chance to start the grapple
70% chance of keeping hold in first round.
80% chance to pin
95% chance not to lose the pin.
All told, only 27% chance to grapple and keep pinned for 2 rounds.
Or drop the stats to all 14s and calculate his CMD correctly and a level 7 monk has a CMD of 22 vs a cleric with a CMB without any buffing spells of 7 or 22-7=15. Needing a 15 to escape from someone who is good at wrestling when you've done absolutely nothing to defend yourself, (buff str, take defensive combat training, etc.) and things are a lot more reasonable. even with your all 16s it becomes a 25 which needs a 18, a lot harder, but then again, what can you expect when you have hulk hogan vs bill gates.
Base 10 + Wis 4 (no other class gets) + Str 2 + Dex 3 + BAB 5 + Monk AC bonus 1 + ROP +1 (deflection bonus gets added) + 5 circumstance bonus to failure to break grapple + improved grapple +2 = 33
My understanding is that you only add the +5 circumstance bonus to the monk's grapple checks (i.e. CMB checks), not to his CMD.
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Or drop the stats to all 14s and calculate his CMD correctly and a level 7 monk has a CMD of 22 vs a cleric with a CMB without any buffing spells of 7 or 22-7=15. Needing a 15 to escape from someone who is good at wrestling when you've done absolutely nothing to defend yourself, (buff str, take defensive combat training, etc.) and things are a lot more reasonable. even with your all 16s it becomes a 25 which needs a 18, a lot harder, but then again, what can you expect when you have hulk hogan vs bill gates.
To clarify for last knight, the monk is lvl 7 even if you dropped his stats to 14s for all three you are still looking at a + 13 CMB vs. a CMD of 29 or needing a 17 or higher to break a pin.Or just 12 or higher before that +5 comes into play. That's not bad at all. Let's use 16's (instead of 18's or 14's)
55% chance to start the grapple
70% chance of keeping hold in first round.
80% chance to pin
95% chance not to lose the pin.
All told, only 27% chance to grapple and keep pinned for 2 rounds.
Last Knight, please read the entire section in the book about a monk before making comments about people incorrectly calculating CMD.
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No it doesn't, the problem here is that you have a character with high stats, and a miscalculated CMD vs. a cleric with average stats and no defenses. Of course you're looking at a slaughter.It amounts to the same cause he gets to add his wisdom bonus and his monk AC bonus to his CMD so although manuever training doesn't give it to him, he effectively adds his level. In this monks case, it amounts to the same.Just to be clear here, you have a 10th level monk with an 18-19 Str, Dex, and Wis, and your problem is that you successfully, easily grappled a level 9 cleric?7th level Monk. Monks use their level for CMD and CMB.Um no, Monks only use their level for CMB, not CMD. In order to have a +7 BAB on CMD they'd have to be level 10.
Maneuver Training (Ex): At 3rd level, a monk uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus when calculating his . Base attack bonuses granted from other classes are unaffected and are added normally.Reading the OP it sounds like a mistake was made and the maneuver training was applied to both CMB and CMDApparently we have a misunderstanding let me break down the calculation as I have his character sheet on my computer and apparently to get past this I have to show you everything:
Base 10 + Wis 4 (no other class gets) + Str 2 + Dex 3 + BAB 5 + Monk AC bonus 1 + ROP +1 (deflection bonus gets added) + 5 circumstance bonus to failure to break grapple + improved grapple +2 = 33
So actually, you are right, it doesn't amount to the same, he actually is better off than just having his level be his BAB. No you have the specifics of my calculations if you come up with any discrepancies, I can point in the book where they all factor in.
Allright, here we have a much better look, but you don't add +5 for maintaining the grapple to CMD, so you have once again made a mistake. The +5 bonus only applies to grapple checks you make against the target, not to grapple checks made against you.
EDIT: ARGH!!! Ninja'ed by Hogarth
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Base 10 + Wis 4 (no other class gets) + Str 2 + Dex 3 + BAB 5 + Monk AC bonus 1 + ROP +1 (deflection bonus gets added) + 5 circumstance bonus to failure to break grapple + improved grapple +2 = 33My understanding is that you only add the +5 circumstance bonus to the monk's grapple checks (i.e. CMB checks), not to his CMD.
Good point and catch there Hogarth. It would still be a 27 which against her CMB of 10 with bonus from Divine Power, which means she needs a 17 instead of a 20. That is a little better.
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Last Knight, please read the entire section in the book about a monk before making comments about people incorrectly calculating CMD.Or drop the stats to all 14s and calculate his CMD correctly and a level 7 monk has a CMD of 22 vs a cleric with a CMB without any buffing spells of 7 or 22-7=15. Needing a 15 to escape from someone who is good at wrestling when you've done absolutely nothing to defend yourself, (buff str, take defensive combat training, etc.) and things are a lot more reasonable. even with your all 16s it becomes a 25 which needs a 18, a lot harder, but then again, what can you expect when you have hulk hogan vs bill gates.
To clarify for last knight, the monk is lvl 7 even if you dropped his stats to 14s for all three you are still looking at a + 13 CMB vs. a CMD of 29 or needing a 17 or higher to break a pin.Or just 12 or higher before that +5 comes into play. That's not bad at all. Let's use 16's (instead of 18's or 14's)
55% chance to start the grapple
70% chance of keeping hold in first round.
80% chance to pin
95% chance not to lose the pin.
All told, only 27% chance to grapple and keep pinned for 2 rounds.
Sure, as soon as you stop miscalculating CMD
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Sure, as soon as you stop miscalculating CMDLast Knight, please read the entire section in the book about a monk before making comments about people incorrectly calculating CMD.Or drop the stats to all 14s and calculate his CMD correctly and a level 7 monk has a CMD of 22 vs a cleric with a CMB without any buffing spells of 7 or 22-7=15. Needing a 15 to escape from someone who is good at wrestling when you've done absolutely nothing to defend yourself, (buff str, take defensive combat training, etc.) and things are a lot more reasonable. even with your all 16s it becomes a 25 which needs a 18, a lot harder, but then again, what can you expect when you have hulk hogan vs bill gates.
To clarify for last knight, the monk is lvl 7 even if you dropped his stats to 14s for all three you are still looking at a + 13 CMB vs. a CMD of 29 or needing a 17 or higher to break a pin.Or just 12 or higher before that +5 comes into play. That's not bad at all. Let's use 16's (instead of 18's or 14's)
55% chance to start the grapple
70% chance of keeping hold in first round.
80% chance to pin
95% chance not to lose the pin.
All told, only 27% chance to grapple and keep pinned for 2 rounds.
See above post, still a 27 which is still higher than just adding his BAB to CMD.
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See above post, still a 27 which is still higher than just adding his BAB to CMD.Sure, as soon as you stop miscalculating CMDLast Knight, please read the entire section in the book about a monk before making comments about people incorrectly calculating CMD.Or drop the stats to all 14s and calculate his CMD correctly and a level 7 monk has a CMD of 22 vs a cleric with a CMB without any buffing spells of 7 or 22-7=15. Needing a 15 to escape from someone who is good at wrestling when you've done absolutely nothing to defend yourself, (buff str, take defensive combat training, etc.) and things are a lot more reasonable. even with your all 16s it becomes a 25 which needs a 18, a lot harder, but then again, what can you expect when you have hulk hogan vs bill gates.
To clarify for last knight, the monk is lvl 7 even if you dropped his stats to 14s for all three you are still looking at a + 13 CMB vs. a CMD of 29 or needing a 17 or higher to break a pin.Or just 12 or higher before that +5 comes into play. That's not bad at all. Let's use 16's (instead of 18's or 14's)
55% chance to start the grapple
70% chance of keeping hold in first round.
80% chance to pin
95% chance not to lose the pin.
All told, only 27% chance to grapple and keep pinned for 2 rounds.
I never claimed it wasn't, I merely pointed out that giving a person inflated stats and then miscalculating his CMB makes your example a lot more stacked to be the always win you claimed it. With your new post, you found out that it wasn't in fact an only succeed on a 20, but it is still highly favorable to the monk. Which is true, but that then goes to the point that the monk has trained to grapple and is supposed to be good at CMs versus a character that isn't trained at all to combat it and has no defenses against it (of which there are many). When you gave his correct information I wasn't trying to make it look like you are just always wrong, merely that from the get-go you were using a stacked example to claim a problem with the system.
And for the record, I just had a Cleric villain I ran vs a monk, it was much the same situation as yours, but I still had to fudge the roll so that the cleric didn't escape the grapple. If it was winding up that spellcasters had to roll a 20 to escape, I'd agree that there was a problem, but that's not what happened here. It's a good tactic, but the second your monk goes up against a spellcaster ready for being grappled, (Combat Casting, Defensive Combat Training, and buff spells) he's going to stop assuming that it's an autowin tactic.
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I never claimed it wasn't, I merely pointed out that giving a person inflated stats and then miscalculating his CMB makes your example a lot more stacked to be the always win you claimed it. With your new post, you found out that it wasn't in fact an only succeed on a 20, but it is still highly favorable to the monk. Which is true, but that then goes to the point that the monk has trained to grapple and is supposed to be good at CMs versus a character that isn't trained at all to combat it and has no defenses against it (of...See above post, still a 27 which is still higher than just adding his BAB to CMD.Sure, as soon as you stop miscalculating CMDLast Knight, please read the entire section in the book about a monk before making comments about people incorrectly calculating CMD.Or drop the stats to all 14s and calculate his CMD correctly and a level 7 monk has a CMD of 22 vs a cleric with a CMB without any buffing spells of 7 or 22-7=15. Needing a 15 to escape from someone who is good at wrestling when you've done absolutely nothing to defend yourself, (buff str, take defensive combat training, etc.) and things are a lot more reasonable. even with your all 16s it becomes a 25 which needs a 18, a lot harder, but then again, what can you expect when you have hulk hogan vs bill gates.
To clarify for last knight, the monk is lvl 7 even if you dropped his stats to 14s for all three you are still looking at a + 13 CMB vs. a CMD of 29 or needing a 17 or higher to break a pin.Or just 12 or higher before that +5 comes into play. That's not bad at all. Let's use 16's (instead of 18's or 14's)
55% chance to start the grapple
70% chance of keeping hold in first round.
80% chance to pin
95% chance not to lose the pin.
All told, only 27% chance to grapple and keep pinned for 2 rounds.
Fair enough.
The main point I was getting at is that grapple is quite a bit more powerful in PFRPG and that when someone chooses to run a 3.5 adventure they need to keep a strong eye on grapple mitigation for the casters.
Now, when a person successfully breaks a pin, are they out of the grapple? or are they still grappled just not pinned? After previously pinning a foe, if the monk fails his maintain roll, is the defender out of the grapple or still pinned or unpinned but still grappled.
Because this situation also came up\
Monk grapples big monster
Monster fails to break out
Monk pins monster
Monster breaks pin (ruled still grappled) so does nothing else and is still grappled
Monk repins monster
while this goes on party slowly beats it to death as it can't do anything but continually getting out of being pinned
If your DM was to allow it, theres a Feat in the official D&D Draconomicon designed to defeat Grappler characters/monsters.
Close Quarters Fighting [GENERAL FEAT] (Page 103)
You are skilled at fighting at very close range and in evading grappling attempts.
Prequisite Base Attack Bonus +3
Benefit You can make an attack of opportunity when someone tries to grapple you, provided you are not flatfooted or already grappled, even if the character has the Improved Grab special quality.
Any damage you deal with your attack of opportunity applies as a bonus to the ensuing grapple check (EDIT : I apply this as a bonus to CMD instead, it works just the same) you make you avoid being grappled. This feat does not grant an additional attack of opportunity in a round, so the feat does not help you if you have no attacks of opportunity available.
Normal A creature with the Improved Grab ability does not provoke an attack of opportunity when beginning a grapple
I never let my BBEG's leave home without it, being that alot of monsters love to grab you and squeeze/swallow whole/constrict, it can be a lifesaver. No reason you cant have this added to your bad guys.
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The main point I was getting at is that grapple is quite a bit more powerful in PFRPG and that when someone chooses to run a 3.5 adventure they need to keep a strong eye on grapple mitigation for the casters.
Okay this point I have no problem with, although I will say that in my experiences of DMing, a character in 3.5 seemed a lot more likely to autosucceed at grapling than in Pathfinder, but that's just my impression and I have nothing other than game experience to back that up.
Now, when a person successfully breaks a pin, are they out of the grapple? or are they still grappled just not pinned? After previously pinning a foe, if the monk fails his maintain roll, is the defender out of the grapple or still pinned or unpinned but still grappled.
Because this situation also came up\Monk grapples big monster
Monster fails to break out
Monk pins monster
Monster breaks pin (ruled still grappled) so does nothing else and is still grappled
Monk repins monsterwhile this goes on party slowly beats it to death as it can't do anything but continually getting out of being pinned
Okay this is a harder one for me, as I don't fully know the details but I think it depends on how the monster broke the pin. If the monster broke the pin because the monk failed his roll, then the grapple is over and the monster is free. If the monster broke the pin by succeeding in it's CMB check then its a different story as I believe then it's the monsters choice to end the grapple, or perform one of the allowed grapple actions. This is fuzzier and I'm not as sure as I was with just the math.
Okay this is a harder one for me, as I don't fully know the details but I think it depends on how the monster broke the pin. If the monster broke the pin because the monk failed his roll, then the grapple is over and the monster is free. If the monster broke the pin by succeeding in it's CMB check then its a different story as I believe then it's the monsters choice to end the grapple, or perform one of the allowed grapple actions. This is fuzzier and I'm not as sure as I was with just the math.
This is correct. You no longer have to succeed twice to escape from pinned.
Well grappling is powerful, look at real life MMA. It controls your opponent and leaves them helpless when performed correctly. Just remember that when you are grappling you are SOL when some of the guy's chronies come up and start whailing on you.
Who hasn't built an adventure only to get smoked without having a chance to do anything? Casters are notorious for this in my games. My advice is not to put your NPC in a situation like that if you don't want them to get smoked like that. Surround them with guards, give them magic defenses that help them, think of something. Honestly Pathfinder isn't broken look back at 3rd edition when grappling was even more powerful.