4E Minions in PF


Homebrew and House Rules

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Avon Rekaes wrote:

Thanks for your input Charender. Mind if I try to come up with some counter points?

1) I don't think I mind if this is the case. I believe the rules of the game are balanced and designed with classes working optimally. (i.e., paladins are always smiting, barbarians are always raging, rogues are always getting sneak attack) To design a game element around "what if a rogue can't sneak attack it?" is not something I think we should worry about. Also, I'm hesitant to use "if something happens to a minion twice" -type mechanics, because the entire point of minions is to make them "fire-and-forget".

A. there is a certain fun element to making minions likely to run away.

B. Yes, it is an edge case, but it is actually a common one(sneaking attack dependent classes, support classes like bards and healing clerics, etc.), and it is very unfun for the player who is stuck fending off a single minion while the rest of the group saves the day. Also, a 2 minions could easily shut down most spell casters in melee

Quote:


2) I'm not sure if you missed it, but my rules have minions always doing MINIMUM damage, not average or half or whatever. Do you think this is not enough? I had them doing minimum before I saw this thread, and I liked the "can't take a full-attack action" fix, but I was hesitant about doing both. The caster level thing is also a good idea, but I went with a reduction in save-DCs across the board instead (because, minion monsters might have things like breath weapons but not spells, so I thought the DC reduction was more universal)

Yes, I did miss it, it is a subnote to the chump rule. You may want to highlight that by making it its own separate rule. I would still be worried about focused fire in general.

For example, in my archer example...
Take a level 2 archer with 12 strength and 14 dexterty, point blank shot and rapid shot with a composite bow(str +1).
Normal damage at close range is 2 shots a 1d8+2 = average of 13 damage.
For minions at close range would be 8 shots a 3 damage a shot = 24 damage.
Both the minions and the non-minon have the same chance to hit, but the minions have twice the damage potential.

The same math holds for a level 3 wizard casting magic missle -> 2x1d4+1 = 7 damage average. 4 level 3 minion wizards casting magic missle -> 8 x2 = 16 damage.

Min damage and lowered DC might be enough, but you will have to playtest it.


I see your point about the rogue thing being more common, but personally I'm not convinced. The threshold will be very small for CRs 1-10, and only get crazy huge at very high CRs (I calculated a minion Balor's threshhold at 23), at which point I feel like parties are crazy powered enough to take on anything.

Thanks, also, for doing the math on minimum damage. It is a little concerning that 4 minions will do around double damage what a regular monster would do.... however, I think there is one mitigating factor: The minions will do less and less damage the more you take out, whereas a single monster will be able to pump out its full damage potential until its very last hit point.

This means minion fights will seem overwhelming on the first volley if they all beat the PCs in initiative, but otherwise (assuming an even mix of initiative rolls among PCs and minions) PCs will have a chance to mitigate this before they ever get to act.

I'm leaning toward being okay with this... but you're right, I think this deserves some playtesting before unleashing it.


Avon Rekaes wrote:

I see your point about the rogue thing being more common, but personally I'm not convinced. The threshold will be very small for CRs 1-10, and only get crazy huge at very high CRs (I calculated a minion Balor's threshhold at 23), at which point I feel like parties are crazy powered enough to take on anything.

Thanks, also, for doing the math on minimum damage. It is a little concerning that 4 minions will do around double damage what a regular monster would do.... however, I think there is one mitigating factor: The minions will do less and less damage the more you take out, whereas a single monster will be able to pump out its full damage potential until its very last hit point.

This means minion fights will seem overwhelming on the first volley if they all beat the PCs in initiative, but otherwise (assuming an even mix of initiative rolls among PCs and minions) PCs will have a chance to mitigate this before they ever get to act.

I'm leaning toward being okay with this... but you're right, I think this deserves some playtesting before unleashing it.

Those are some low level example, what worries me is that as you go up in levels, your static bonuses override your variable ones. For example, a level 13 NPC fighter should have around a 20 strength with a +1 greatsword, weapon specialization, and weapon training 3. Their damage would be 2d6 + 13 for an average of 26 damage. 4 level 13 fighter minions would be hitting for 15 damage each for 60 damage.

Yeah, for the record, I like the idea of min damage for minions because it eliminates another roll for me to make, but I also know how static bonuses scale with levels.


Out of curiosity do you have any in game logic for this template?

One reason I prefer Pathfinder to 4E is it fulfills my simulationist side a bit better. Is there a reason this powerful outsider minion, cr 12 when in a group of 4, capable of threatening a powerful PC, dies to a natural 20 from a commoner? A stone thrown by a child?

To me, it ruins the immersion, as it is clearly a game function.

Please don't take this as criticism to your style of play, I just wonder if you have a different way of looking at them.


Yeah, my goal is to make running minions as simple as possible, which is why I don't want to make anything you have to track inherent to the rules for running them. (I even tried to simplify some outside factors, like confusing or staggering them, to just take them out of the fight entirely)

Also, while minions might run away, I feel like that should be an ad-hoc morale thing that the DM decides, rather than hard-coded into their rules. For one, I know my players HATE when monsters escape and get aggravated whenever someone escapes, no matter how small-change they are, so I'll probably just let them mow minions down.

I have been thinking about the damage output. Current, I have 4 minions = 1 monster purely because that's how 4e has it. What if it was only 3 per monster?


Beopere wrote:

Out of curiosity do you have any in game logic for this template?

One reason I prefer Pathfinder to 4E is it fulfills my simulationist side a bit better. Is there a reason this powerful outsider minion, cr 12 when in a group of 4, capable of threatening a powerful PC, dies to a natural 20 from a commoner? A stone thrown by a child?

To me, it ruins the immersion, as it is clearly a game function.

Please don't take this as criticism to your style of play, I just wonder if you have a different way of looking at them.

It goes back to the core concept of hit points. Hit points are not "The number of hits you can take before you die", but rather a general measure of your durability in combat.

If I am a fighter with 120 hp, and an enemy hits me for 40 damage. Now that damage would kill a level 1 commoner 4 times over, but for my fighter, it does not even impair my ability to fight. A good narrative description of the hit would be "The giant winds up and lands a thunderous blow, which you barely succeed in parrying at the last second. You grit and strain to stop the blow, and it leaves you winded and less able to defend yourself." That same blow if it ever to hit a minion or a level 1 commoner would be, "The giant winds up and lands a thunderous blow, which hits the minion full on leaving nothing more than a smear on the ground"


Beopere wrote:

Out of curiosity do you have any in game logic for this template?

One reason I prefer Pathfinder to 4E is it fulfills my simulationist side a bit better. Is there a reason this powerful outsider minion, cr 12 when in a group of 4, capable of threatening a powerful PC, dies to a natural 20 from a commoner? A stone thrown by a child?

To me, it ruins the immersion, as it is clearly a game function.

Please don't take this as criticism to your style of play, I just wonder if you have a different way of looking at them.

Don't worry, I don't mind. To tell you the truth, while I do prefer the simultationist leanings of 3.5/Pathfinder, I did take away some things from my time DMing for 4e campaigns.

So to answer your question, there is no simultationist explanation for a 1 hit point monster. It's entirely a game construct. Think of the minion subtype/template as a lens that the PCs see the monster/NPC through. The minion will not die to a commoner, because to a commoner it wouldn't BE a minion. This is purely "gameism" design, and doesn't reflect a simulated fantasy world. (Plus also, my rules for minions give them a kind of "super damage reduction" that wouldn't let a thrown improvised weapon from a 1st level human child that does 1d4-2 damage do anything to it, anyway.)

And like I said, I do actually prefer a simulated world than a game-y world, but I'm more willing to compromise now that I've DMed for both sides of the PF/4e coin. I can understand if you don't agree, and I bear you no ill-will for doing so.

For my part, I just miss being able to throw huge numbers of enemies for the PCs to mow through, and actually have the encounter still be threatening. Throwing low-CR monsters at PCs in 3.5/PF to get the same number of bodies in an encounter as a 4e minion fight just results in giving the PCs free XP, as the low-CR monsters attack values are just woefully unable to handle the higher level PC's defenses and you just end up rolling lots of dice and hoping for a critical threat (that will probably never confirm).

Oh hey, that's a good rule for minions. They can never confirm crit threats!

EDIT: Think of it this way, the game-logic would be that minions calculate the abstraction of hit points differently. Like Charender pointed out above, even in simultationist 3.5/PF, "40 damage" is meaningless on its own in terms of figuring out how much bodily harm it does. You can only tell how bad a hit it is in relation to a creature's maximum hit point total. For a 20th level fighter, 40 damage is a scratch, while to a 1st level fighter 40 damage is probably "reduced to a bloody smear". So while the amount of damage points didn't change, the effect they have on creatures depends on the creature.

For my minion rules, instead of comparing damage dealt to their maximum hp total, you instead compare damage dealt to a minion's damage threshold. 40 damage for just about any minion is "bloody smear", while 10 damage might be "bloody smear" to a CR 5 minion, and "barely a scratch" to a CR 15 minion.

Just a different way of seeing things in a game that already abstracts damage. Just using a different abstraction method.


Avon Rekaes wrote:

Yeah, my goal is to make running minions as simple as possible, which is why I don't want to make anything you have to track inherent to the rules for running them. (I even tried to simplify some outside factors, like confusing or staggering them, to just take them out of the fight entirely)

Also, while minions might run away, I feel like that should be an ad-hoc moral thing that the DM decides, rather than hard-coded into their rules. For one, I know my players HATE when monsters escape and get aggravated whenever someone escapes, no matter how small-change they are, so I'll probably just let them mow minions down.

I have been thinking about the damage output. Current, I have 4 minions = 1 monster purely because that's how 4e has it. What if it was only 3 per monster?

I was pondering the same thing, but I realized the ratio depends on the size of the damage dice, and the static modifiers.

Based purely on dice size
1d4 -> 2.5/1 -> 2.5 minions per normal guy
1d6 -> 3.5 minions per
1d8 -> 4.5 minions per
1d10 -> 5.5 minions per
1d12 -> 6.5 minions per

Adding in static modifier
1d4+1 -> 3.5/2 -> 1.75 minions per normal guy
1d4+2 -> 4.5/3 -> 1.5 minions per
1d4+3 -> 5.5/4 -> 1.37 minions per

You get the idea. Now none of that addresses the fact that the average life expectancy of a minion is much lower than an NPC. Lets look at that a bit.

Lets assume that the NPC dies to 3 rounds worth of attacks. If they win initiative they get 3 rounds of attacks themselves. If they lose, they get 2 rounds of attacks. This gives the an average of 2.5 rounds worth of attacks(the .5 is assuming that the NPC is as likely to win initiative as they are to lose it.) Now 4 minions in the exact same situation would lose about 1 minion per round. Best case scenario for the players, they kill a minion each round before the minion gets its attacks off. The minions get 3+2+1=6 rounds to attack. Worst case scenario, the minions get all their attacks in a round before one of them dies. That gives them 4+3+2+1=10 round worth of attacks. On average, I would expect the minions to get 8 attacks.

So now combine that with my archer from the previous example. 2 attacks per round at 1d8+2 damage times 2.5 rounds worth of attacks = 32.5 damage.
8 chances to attack x 2 attacks per round x 3 damage per attack = 48 damage.

If the players can kill the minions faster than that, things swing in their favor. If they don't, things get uglier.

I am almost tempted to say use 4 to 1 ratio for melee, and 3 to 1 ratio for ranged. Almost every situation where minions can get scary has to do with ranged attackers that are able to spread out easily.


Avon Rekaes wrote:

I see your point about the rogue thing being more common, but personally I'm not convinced. The threshold will be very small for CRs 1-10, and only get crazy huge at very high CRs (I calculated a minion Balor's threshhold at 23), at which point I feel like parties are crazy powered enough to take on anything.

It took me a little bit, but I remembered the other situation where the DR idea breaks down. Two weapon fighters and any other damage dealers that rely on lots of small hits to kill(Melee druids for example). Rather than using DR per say. Add up the total damage deal by a single full attack, and compare it to the "DR" value.


I didn't see this mentioned when I skimmed, but I worry about having minion simply be a template to a monster, due to the amount of them that have save-or-suck spells that wouldn't be affected by minimum damage. Four sleep SLAs, even with reduced DC, are much more dangerous than one.

EDIT: That said, I love the idea of minionized creatures in pathfinder. They were one of my favorite things in 4e.


Charender wrote:
Avon Rekaes wrote:

I see your point about the rogue thing being more common, but personally I'm not convinced. The threshold will be very small for CRs 1-10, and only get crazy huge at very high CRs (I calculated a minion Balor's threshhold at 23), at which point I feel like parties are crazy powered enough to take on anything.

It took me a little bit, but I remembered the other situation where the DR idea breaks down. Two weapon fighters and any other damage dealers that rely on lots of small hits to kill(Melee druids for example). Rather than using DR per say. Add up the total damage deal by a single full attack, and compare it to the "DR" value.

Hmmm... I'd be interested to see the numbers on that. Like, how much damage per a single attack would you expect a Two-Weapon Fighter to deal at levels 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20, and see how they stack up to some iconic monsters turned into minions.

If anything, I agree with the "total all damage from a full-round attack before applying Minion Resistance" would be a hot-fix. I'm just hoping to not have to do it for ease of play at the table. I like minion resistance working just like DR, because then it occupies the same "head space" as DR when running an encounter. It wouldn't be another rule I have to keep track of then.


Yes I was thinking that as well. Monsters with special and abilities or spells would be very difficult to manage in this case. Perhaps it requires all 4 of them working in conjunction to cast a spell?


Beopere wrote:
Yes I was thinking that as well. Monsters with special and abilities or spells would be very difficult to manage in this case. Perhaps it requires all 4 of them working in conjunction to cast a spell?

That is an interesting idea. I kind of like the image it evokes too. Like a circle of occultists chanting together to try and get off a Blasphemy before the PCs get to them. Hmmmmm.....

  • Ritual Casting (Su): Minions casting spells or spell-like abilities have the DC of their spell reduced by 20 instead of 5, but they can take part in a ritual casting to increase the power of their abilities. In order to participate in a ritual casting, minions of the same gang must delay their actions until they can act on the same count in the initiative order. For every minion in a gang participating in the ritual casting, increase the DC of the spell by 5, so a complete gang of 4 minions can cast a spell or use a spell-like ability with the same DC as a non-minion caster. All surviving participants of the ritual casting must make concentration checks to maintain the casting of the ritual if any are killed, with a check DC equal to the normal DC of taking damage while casting. Any ritual casters that fail this check drop out of the ritual and cannot increase the DC of the final casting. If all ritual casters fail their concentration checks, the spell is lost. Caster level checks to penetrate Spell Resistance or to counterspell are only made once for the entire gang.

    Blah, that was a mouthful. Really interesting concept but a little unwieldly...


  • But that image works only in certain circumstances. Like some gross aberration with a paralyzing stench... Although, you could state that the smell isn't bad enough without all four... Hm, I'm hard pressed to find an example where all four minions working together wouldn't work.


    Avon Rekaes wrote:
    Charender wrote:
    Avon Rekaes wrote:

    I see your point about the rogue thing being more common, but personally I'm not convinced. The threshold will be very small for CRs 1-10, and only get crazy huge at very high CRs (I calculated a minion Balor's threshhold at 23), at which point I feel like parties are crazy powered enough to take on anything.

    It took me a little bit, but I remembered the other situation where the DR idea breaks down. Two weapon fighters and any other damage dealers that rely on lots of small hits to kill(Melee druids for example). Rather than using DR per say. Add up the total damage deal by a single full attack, and compare it to the "DR" value.

    Hmmm... I'd be interested to see the numbers on that. Like, how much damage per a single attack would you expect a Two-Weapon Fighter to deal at levels 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20, and see how they stack up to some iconic monsters turned into minions.

    If anything, I agree with the "total all damage from a full-round attack before applying Minion Resistance" would be a hot-fix. I'm just hoping to not have to do it for ease of play at the table. I like minion resistance working just like DR, because then it occupies the same "head space" as DR when running an encounter. It wouldn't be another rule I have to keep track of then.

    Here is what I would consider a solidly built TWF fighter

    Spoiler:

    Level 10 Fighter
    Str 10
    Dexterity 24 (16 base + 2 racial + 4 belt + 2 level)

    Weapon Finesse, TWF, ITWF, Double Slice, Piranha Strike, Weapon Specialization
    Weapon training 2.
    Weapons 2x +1 Agile Kukri
    Damage per hit 1d4 + 11(+3/+6 with piranha strike)


    So, average damage per hit is 16.5/19.5 with piranha strike active, which would be fine, but that is a fairly well optimized TWF. With less optimization(IE a fighter who goes down the split strength/dexterity path), drop the damage per hit by a least 2. Further, a ranger or paladin who isn't getting class bonuses(smite evil/favored enemy) would also be doing about 4 less damage per hit, so put a ranger/rogue/paladin TWFer would bottom out at 6.5 damage per hit.


    IcedMik wrote:

    I didn't see this mentioned when I skimmed, but I worry about having minion simply be a template to a monster, due to the amount of them that have save-or-suck spells that wouldn't be affected by minimum damage. Four sleep SLAs, even with reduced DC, are much more dangerous than one.

    EDIT: That said, I love the idea of minionized creatures in pathfinder. They were one of my favorite things in 4e.

    I am proposing that you use different CL modifiers for the template based on the abilities the creature has.

    A primarily melee minion is CR - 4(This means you get 4 for one)
    A ranged minion is CR - 3(3 to 1 ratio)
    A caster or caster like minion is CR - 2(2 to 1 ratio)

    So on minions with save or suck spells you would only be facing 2 into the place of the normal 1.


    Charender wrote:
    Awesome calculations

    Thanks Charender!

    I think it works out, even with a bottomed-out ranger or paladin. Against a medium CR 10 construct minion, they would need better than their minimum damage roll to kill it, by just 2 points. I think that's fair. In a full round of attacks, they're bound to do at least one 8-damage hit.


    Charender wrote:


    A primarily melee minion is CR - 4(This means you get 4 for one)
    A ranged minion is CR - 3(3 to 1 ratio)
    A caster or caster like minion is CR - 2(2 to 1 ratio)

    I like this quite a bit, but there are a lot of creatures that don't fit into those categories. A melee attack with a supernatural ability on hit fits in both melee and caster categories.

    My suggestion, which is admittedly a lot more work, is that instead of making Minion a template, make it a ruleset for designing creatures. After all, in 4e, minions rarely had more than a basic attack. By making Minion a ruleset, you can suggest removing things like save-or-suck entirely.


    IcedMik wrote:


    My suggestion, which is admittedly a lot more work, is that instead of making Minion a template, make it a ruleset for designing creatures. After all, in 4e, minions rarely had more than a basic attack. By making Minion a ruleset, you can suggest removing things like save-or-suck entirely.

    Think you might be onto something. If anything a template can be just a way to start, and then you remove all "save or suck/die" affects.


    IcedMik wrote:
    Charender wrote:


    A primarily melee minion is CR - 4(This means you get 4 for one)
    A ranged minion is CR - 3(3 to 1 ratio)
    A caster or caster like minion is CR - 2(2 to 1 ratio)

    I like this quite a bit, but there are a lot of creatures that don't fit into those categories. A melee attack with a supernatural ability on hit fits in both melee and caster categories.

    My suggestion, which is admittedly a lot more work, is that instead of making Minion a template, make it a ruleset for designing creatures. After all, in 4e, minions rarely had more than a basic attack. By making Minion a ruleset, you can suggest removing things like save-or-suck entirely.

    CR is a judgement call anyways. I am assuming that a DM knows the difference between a melee creature with fairie fire, and a creature with significant amount of SLA that can also make melee attacks.


    Oh, and just in case you missed it, there is a second thread on the subject that took place after this one originally.

    here


    I think Rule Zero: Underlings, by Minotaur Games might be something to look at.


    Personally I just use kobolds as minions to all monsters, or other CR 1/4 monsters. I like kobolds because, if the APL is 2, give each kobold minion 2 levels of whatever NPC class you want. 4 kobold warrior 1 = CR1.

    So, if I want, say a tough CR3 fight for my party, I have a goblin brute in decent armor and weapons (goblin cavalier 1) riding a Hulking Rat (dire rat with the simple: giant template) and then... 4 kobold minions. Now there's a small cadre of swarming humanoid reptiles granting massive aid another bonuses to my goblin tank. No single enemy deals a lot of damage but they're virtually guaranteed of pinging at least one hero every round.


    Mark Hoover wrote:

    Personally I just use kobolds as minions to all monsters, or other CR 1/4 monsters. I like kobolds because, if the APL is 2, give each kobold minion 2 levels of whatever NPC class you want. 4 kobold warrior 1 = CR1.

    So, if I want, say a tough CR3 fight for my party, I have a goblin brute in decent armor and weapons (goblin cavalier 1) riding a Hulking Rat (dire rat with the simple: giant template) and then... 4 kobold minions. Now there's a small cadre of swarming humanoid reptiles granting massive aid another bonuses to my goblin tank. No single enemy deals a lot of damage but they're virtually guaranteed of pinging at least one hero every round.

    That works up to a point. At some point, no amount of CR 1/3 kobolds are going to make the party care about them.

    For example, my level 10 fighter up thread will have around 80 hp, and an AC of around 30. Basic Kobolds are going to need a natural 20 to hit him for around 1d6 damage. So you would need around 60-70 kobolds to even begin to worry that fighter. At that point, I am just rolling buckets of dice and hoping for a 20. Adding HD to the kobolds doesn't really help, because now you are adding HP that you have to track.


    Additionally... what if I don't want to use kobolds?

    The classic rational behind minions for me is... what happens when a 10th level or higher party starts disregarding all local laws and feels basically untouchable, because they know most city guards are just CR 1-2 shmucks?

    Now the city guards are CR 10+ shmuck minions. Sure, they go down fast, but you can actually have meaningful encounters with the city guard again, even at mid-to-high levels, and still let the PCs feel like high-powered badasses because they're going through them like a hot knife through butter (while still feeling the thrill of combat because they ARE being threatened)


    Avon Rekaes wrote:

    The classic rational behind minions for me is... what happens when a 10th level or higher party starts disregarding all local laws and feels basically untouchable, because they know most city guards are just CR 1-2 shmucks?

    Now the city guards are CR 10+ shmuck minions. Sure, they go down fast, but you can actually have meaningful encounters with the city guard again, even at mid-to-high levels, and still let the PCs feel like high-powered badasses because they're going through them like a hot knife through butter (while still feeling the thrill of combat because they ARE being threatened)

    Just because you're talented enough to take down a couple of cops who are out on patrol, doesn't mean you don't have to worry about them calling in SWAT or the military.

    Yes, most city guards are only CR 1-2 and can be easily dispatched by a PC, should it be required. (Though I'm curious what sort of campaign you're running where city guards are frequent opponents, some sort of way of the wicked game?). However if the alarm goes off and the authorities figure out who is responsible, then they'll send out the high level NPCs.

    I just use the encounter design rules to design cities as well. I'll assign the city a CR appropriate to its size and importance (capital city might be 20, tiny farming village 1). Then I give the city four NPCs who would champion the defense of law and order, making them each the appropriate CR for the settlement. The city guards are just the hirelings/cohorts and followers of these high level opponents.

    While certainly a powerful PC can disregard the law pretty safely in a city that's below their CR, the rewards available will also be pretty mediocre to them. Eventually flaunting the law might result in the king/whoever sending an army their way.

    I find this matches both gamism and simulation fairly well.


    mkenner, while you're absolutely right that a city could call in the SWAT, my point is that adding minions to my repertoire can only add variety and spice to my adventures. If the only response to high-level PCs attacking a city is "call in the SWAT", then "calling in the SWAT" is going to be boring. I'm not say that this is currently the case, but every new option you add to the DM toolkit can only make every other previous available option that much more unique (say, like, the local high-priest of a god of Law starts summoning outsiders). So now a high-level party that decides to overthrow a city's rulership can be met with one more option than was already available. It keeps things interesting.

    It also allows a gradation of response. First, they send in the minions, and when those get wiped out, NOW they send in the SWAT. In that scenario, the minion encounter only helps to add a frame of reference to how badass the SWAT team is by comparison. And then when the PCs destroy those guys, now you have the Lawful outsiders coming for their heads.

    Bam, now that's an adventure, and now you have a narrative flow of events about how the city responds to threats.

    There are also other concerns that are specific to some types of campaigns. If you are running a game in say, Eberron, it's also going to break verisimilitude if you constantly send in the SWAT team and standard high-level threats, because Eberron assumes that high-level PC-classed individuals are rare and special. So for an Eberron campaign, I would feel like I am misrepresenting the flavor of the setting (which I like, because that's the whole reason I am running a game in that setting in the first place) if 13th level PCs try to take over, say, Stormreach and I keep throwing CR 9 or higher NPCs at them. For the record, by the current rules and setting information, if PCs wanted to do this to Stormreach, then without misrepresenting the setting, I could only throw about 3 10th-level warforged at them, then a bunch of CR 1-4 chumps.

    Minions can only add to the fun and narrative of the game from my perspective. If you don't agree, I perfectly understand. However please keep this thread about helpful rules suggestions to make the idea work. The people that want minions want minions, and you're not going to dissuade us no matter how much you tell us they're "unnecessary".

    EDIT: Also, if you've never had high-level PC's power go to the player's heads, I can only bless your luck. My group tends toward sociopathy.


    Avon Rekaes wrote:
    However please keep this thread about helpful rules suggestions to make the idea work. The people that want minions want minions, and you're not going to dissuade us no matter how much you tell us they're "unnecessary".

    Sorry for the derail. It wasn't intended as a criticism of minions, just an alternate solution I was suggesting to the problem you described in your example. I tend to go off on tangents sometimes.


    mkenner wrote:
    Avon Rekaes wrote:
    However please keep this thread about helpful rules suggestions to make the idea work. The people that want minions want minions, and you're not going to dissuade us no matter how much you tell us they're "unnecessary".
    Sorry for the derail. It wasn't intended as a criticism of minions, just an alternate solution I was suggesting to the problem you described in your example. I tend to go off on tangents sometimes.

    No worries, sorry if I came off as defensive.


    I would suggest an alternative 4e strategy, and treat a bunch of minions as a swarm (which D&D did for dretch, hordlings, and ghouls). Anyone trying to get to the big bad will have to go through the swarm, taking damage. When the wizard shoots magic missle, you just have to GM it as "four of the 50 goblins in front of the Balor just bought it." It is simpler to run 1 swarm then 10 minions. You can also make an artillery swarm that sits in the back shooting a rain of arrows. I usually make the hit something like a fireball, even including the half damage on a miss, since only the nimble rogue can dance through rain without getting wet.


    Here's a thought:

    If we're using templates to make minion monsters, could we make a "minion" character class that you use for human/demi-human minions like the above mentioned city guard.

    You could have a 1-20 NPC class for "melee minion", "arcane minion", etc. Design them with simplified versions of class-abilities that are simple and easy to track.


    Avon Rekaes wrote:
    Also, if you've never had high-level PC's power go to the player's heads, I can only bless your luck. My group tends toward sociopathy.

    I am pretty lucky with my group. Sure they do have their sociopathic moments (I'm pretty sure that being a PC is a diagnosable mental illness in fantasy worlds) but they usually stop short of attacking towns unless it's an evil game or if they're trying to overthrow an evil-governed town.

    I think it mostly comes down to our traditions and what the group's expectations are. We've been gaming together for a long time. Plus we run evil campaigns now and then where people can blow off some steam and get things out of their system.

    Quote:
    No worries, sorry if I came off as defensive.

    Not to worry, I see how my post could easily be perceived differently from how I intended it.


    Mechagamera wrote:
    I would suggest an alternative 4e strategy, and treat a bunch of minions as a swarm (which D&D did for dretch, hordlings, and ghouls). Anyone trying to get to the big bad will have to go through the swarm, taking damage. When the wizard shoots magic missle, you just have to GM it as "four of the 50 goblins in front of the Balor just bought it." It is simpler to run 1 swarm then 10 minions. You can also make an artillery swarm that sits in the back shooting a rain of arrows. I usually make the hit something like a fireball, even including the half damage on a miss, since only the nimble rogue can dance through rain without getting wet.

    Hi Mechagemera. Thanks for your thoughts.

    One of the very first encounters I ran in Pathfinder after returning from 4e was an outsider with a "swarm" of cultists (lifting the Mob rules from the 3.5 DMG II), trying exactly as you suggest. While it was an interesting fight, it definitely has a different shape and feel than a 4e minion fight.

    With a 4e minion fight, PCs get to see bodies fall, squares on the field freeing up at a much more rapid pace than usual. In the fight against the cultist mob, because of the completely different way you have to approach swarm fights, the PCs felt more frustrated than empowered.

    Not that I mind frustrating my PCs once in a while, but for me a "mob fight" and a "minion fight" are two separate tools that I can pull from my DM utility belt, instead of one being a substitute for another.


    Avon,

    Thank you. That is definitely true that mob fights and fights with a lot of minions are very different. I was thinking that in some cases where GM's are thinking of minions, they would find a mob easier to run. I do have great fondness for trap minions (that explode when hit, like angels of light, or that enhance their fellows when they die, like angels of valor), and that type of thing doesn't work well with mobs.


    Charender wrote:
    Mark Hoover wrote:

    Personally I just use kobolds as minions to all monsters, or other CR 1/4 monsters. I like kobolds because, if the APL is 2, give each kobold minion 2 levels of whatever NPC class you want. 4 kobold warrior 1 = CR1.

    So, if I want, say a tough CR3 fight for my party, I have a goblin brute in decent armor and weapons (goblin cavalier 1) riding a Hulking Rat (dire rat with the simple: giant template) and then... 4 kobold minions. Now there's a small cadre of swarming humanoid reptiles granting massive aid another bonuses to my goblin tank. No single enemy deals a lot of damage but they're virtually guaranteed of pinging at least one hero every round.

    That works up to a point. At some point, no amount of CR 1/3 kobolds are going to make the party care about them.

    For example, my level 10 fighter up thread will have around 80 hp, and an AC of around 30. Basic Kobolds are going to need a natural 20 to hit him for around 1d6 damage. So you would need around 60-70 kobolds to even begin to worry that fighter. At that point, I am just rolling buckets of dice and hoping for a 20. Adding HD to the kobolds doesn't really help, because now you are adding HP that you have to track.

    My solution:

    1. take kobold
    2. Add +15 to all attack rolls
    3.
    4. profit!

    As for if you don't want to use kobolds:

    1. take kobold
    2. describe it as anything else using the exact same numbers
    3.
    4. profit!

    Mission Accomplished!

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