Good Grapple Builds?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Hi, I'm playing in a game this week with a few friends. I'm very familiar with Pathfinder but this is my first time actually playing it.

I pride myself on building characters who are somewhat interesting over the stock archetypes. For this reason I wanted a grappler, something that doesn't seem popular in Pathfinder or even most games. After going through Feat, Classes etc. it was obvious it pretty much had to be a Fighter or Monk. Both offer different pros and cons so I figured I'd ask some advice.

How would you build a Grappler? We are starting at level 1 and as far as I know 15 point buy is allowed. Were not using any special books except the Legacy of Fire PHB, which isn't a big changer.

Ideally this character would have respectable damage output while being able to lock a dangerous opponent down and staying alive. I really have no preferences beyond that and I very much like both the Monk and Fighter classes.

My apologies if this was asked somewhere else, my quick search didn't turn up anything. If you know of a good source of info for my question, please link. :] As much advice as you feel like typing is appreciated and will be read.

Sovereign Court

Human
Str 10, Dex 19, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 7

Human Feat (Agile Maneuvers)
Lvl 1 – Monk 1: Imp. Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Character Feat (*)
Lvl 2 - Fighter 1: Bonus Feat (*)
Lvl 3 - Fighter 2: Bonus Feat (*), Character Feat (Fleet)
Lvl 4 - Fighter 3: Armor Training (grab mithral breastplate with armored spikes), +1 Dex
Lvl 5 - Fighter 4: Bonus Feat (*), Character Feat (Mounted Combat )
Lvl 6 - Fighter 5: Weapon Training (close)
Lvl 7 - Low Templar 1: Favored Enemy (human), Character Feat (Greater Grapple)
Lvl 8 - Low Templar 2: Dirty Fighting

I know that you'd mentioned that only the Legacy of Fire book was available, but pointing out the Low Templar (out of the Pathfinder Campaign Sourcebook) is going to be helpful to make a point at the end of the post.

Just have to underscore how good the Dirty Fighting feature is from the Low Templar. Baked into the class feature are several elements that are close to real feats. You get no attack penalty to improvised weapons (like Catch Off-Guard and Throw Anything), and you get +2 to bull rush, disarm, grapple, and trip attempts (like all the improved feats), and along with that you get a really cool critical table to roll on to cause condition effects (several of the critical mastery feats). All of these bonuses are unnamed so they stack.

The rationale of all the above... CMB and CMD is very difficult to modify in the game presently. Perhaps in the future there will be spat books that will give other ways to boost it, but right now there aren't many options. So finding something like the Dirty Fighting from the Low Templar can provide a huge boost.

Taking one level of monk is a huge boost for a grappler. Good saves (needed when the caster dumps a save or die/suck on you), Imp. Unarmed Strike and Imp. Grapple and acrobatics as a class skill. You lose +1 BAB and result in one less on the CMB/CMD power curve, but all of those features are worth it.

You have to carefully manage the skill selection to qualify for the Low Templar (a rank in bluff, ride and know (nobility)), but since you are guaranteed at least one skill point no matter what per level you have time to put the points where they need to be.

Dumping Strength? With an anemic 15 point buy you have to make tradeoffs. If grappling (and ultimately pinning) is the goal, then you don't really need to damage opponents, you just need to make sure you grab and hold them there so the rest of the party can stab away, so Agile maneuvers allows you to funnel all of those points into Dex.

(*)There are two feat tree paths you can take:

Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack

The first two feats are helpful in terms of grappling as you have another option other than tumbling to move into grab someone, or if you fail your tumble roll then you're covered. Spring Attack isn't that great for this build due to the low strength, but it can open up some options if you're getting bored with just grappling people.

Point Blank/Precise Shot/Rapid Shot or Deadly Aim

Lets face it, you won't always be able to grapple. In that case you need to be able to do something else so use that awesome Dex to shoot things. Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim are about the same in terms of potential boosts to damage, and if you end up combining them together it becomes an awesome blast of firepower.

I was trying to figure out how to work Nimble Moves and Acrobatic Steps into the build, but because they are not combat feats there isn't much room.

In terms of gear, belts of Dex, and ways to get you large are going to be important for a grappler. Having potions of enlarge person on hand will give you a real advantage in grapples. You could also buy the spell as scrolls or wands and give them to another party member to cast for you.

In terms of your grapple power curve, the average CMD for creatures of the Bestiary per CR is:

CR 1: 13
CR 2: 16
CR 3: 17
CR 4: 20
CR 5: 23
CR 6: 25
CR 7: 26
CR 8: 28

Meanwhile you'll have a grapple CMB bonus of:

Lvl 1: +6 (65% success)
Lvl 2: +7 (55% success)
Lvl 3: +8 (55% success)
Lvl 4: +10 (50% success)
Lvl 5: +11 (40% success)
Lvl 6: +12 (35% success)
Lvl 7: +15 (45% success)
Lvl 8: +18 (50% success)

The above doesn't take into account stat item bonuses, but even so you can see that a tweaked out character still isn't going to have that good of a success rate at grappling, or really any combat maneuver with the current rules. I guess I should clarify that “good” in my book is around 75% success on any given roll. A player ought to feel like they are hitting the “I win!” button when they execute their chosen specialty.

I'd assume this was intentional. The designers didn't want combat maneuvers to dominate the game, so they restructured them so that they follow a more consistent power curve that progressively gets worse as you level up.

So in the end... if you plan on playing low to mid level then a grapple character can be fun, but at higher levels it will become less and less valuable as an ability.


I'd probably go with fighter to optimize a grappler.

Take weapon training (close weapons) and the weapon spec tree for unarmed strike, and you're damage with unarmed attacks--and hence, with grappling--will match that of the monk.

I can't tell if bonuses to unarmed strike attacks will apply to CMB for grapples or not. If it does then fighter is definitely the stronger choice, thanks to the greater weapon focus feat and weapon training ability.

I'll grant that the Monk has some benefits as well, mostly the increased speed and better saves. You can offset the saves for the most part with Lightning Reflexes and Iron Will (although the Monks better wisdom and Still Mind will result in a better Will save regardless). You have the feats to spare for those, and up till 11th level you would only be 1 down in saving throws against an equal level monk without those feats (not counting ability mods).

Fighter will have better AC since you can get by in heavy armors unhindered and even wear a shield too.

Fighter also opens up some nice feat trees such as Spellbreaker and Disruptive, making it much harder for grappled spellcasters to get out of your grapples.

Monk benefits from the Abundant Step feature which helps him close much easier.

Also, monk can benefit much more from the Vital Strike trees, since his base unarmed damage dice is increased rather than just adding bonuses to damage. (e.g. a 12th lvl monk has unarmed damage dice of 2d6 vs the fighters 1d4.)

To clarify the above, take into account the Greater Grapple feat, which you will undoubtedly want. It lets you maintain a grapple as a move action rather than a standard action. This leaves a standard action remaining to either do another grapple attack or to do a regular attack. Since you could only make a single additional attack, the vital strike feats can really up the damage output. Especially for a high level monk with large base damage die. Unfortunately for the monk, he could never get Greater Vital Strike, and won't qualify for Improved Vital Strike until 15th level, so he can only go so far with that.

So theres a lot of tradeoffs to be had between a grappling fighter or grappling monk.

A mix of the classes might not be a bad idea. Two to four levels of monk can add a lot to a grappling fighter build. Say four levels of monk and the rest fighter; the monk levels give for free Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, and 2 monk bonus feats (including Improved Grapple), as well as evasion (if in light armor), flurry of blows, Still Mind, nice save boosts, the Ki pool so that your unarmed attacks strike as magic as well as the other uses of it, and of course a nice increase in unarmed strike damage (1d8 compared to the fighters 1d3). Plus more class skills and 2 more skill points per level. I wouldn't take more monk levels than that since your BAB would take another hit. Compared to four additional levels of fighter you would only get 2 bonus feats (more than compensated for), average of 4 additional hps, and a +1 BAB, plus faster advancement of weapon training and qualifying for fighter only feats.

So maybe go Fighter at 1st level, then four levels of monk, then the rest into fighter. Best race choices would be human, half-elf, or half-orc for the +2 to Strength. Attributes would be ranked in order of importance as Str (by far), Dex, Con, Wis, Int, Cha. You can start off wearing heavier armors, but as your Dex goes up from items eventually move into light armor to take advantage of evasion. You can also use a shield with no penalty. You'll forego some of the monk special abilities due to the armor use (the speed and AC bonuses), but it will be worth it. Pick up Improved Grapple with the first level of monk, then get Greater Grapple at 7th level. You can make good use of Vital Strike + Greater Grapple thanks to the d8 base damage from the monk levels. Also get all the unarmed strike feats you can, weapon focus, improved crit, weapon spec, etc.

Hope this gives you some ideas.


Some good things to think about. I actually talked to my GM this morning and were doing 4d6 stat creation, because everyone realized Point Buy is horrible. If I remember I'm working with 18, 16, 16,, 14, 11 and 9, so much better overall.

Multi-classing is worth looking into and I already had. I wish Flurry of Blows was kept in armor because that would be a great fall back position when Grappling goes south.

I'm basically wanting Grapple to lock down Casters, as a lot of Caster NPCs have a bad CMD for their CR. This makes Fighter attractive because of the Spellbreaker feats. We also have a Rogue in group and I'd like to help him with getting worry free shanks as he's a heavy glass cannon build.

Beyond those two instances, I don't see myself grappling insanely often. If the situation calls for it, it's nice to have in the bag of tricks but I'd still like to have a more direct Beat Down Button.

If there's anymore advice I'm all ears. I wish I knew if we had any magic in the group because that can kind of swing things between Monk and Fighter depending on what's available.


I didn't really see in the Flurry of Blows description a requirement about wearing armor. It looks as if a monk wearing full plate could flurry of blows as easily as a monk in a bathrobe could.

Liberty's Edge

Its not under the Flurry of Blows description but rather under the Weapon and Armor Proficiency:

PFRD wrote:
When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.

So unfortunately Armor = no Flurry


Hmm, no love for the grappling barbarian?

Just rage, use Strength Surge (The barbarian adds her barbarian level on one Strength check or combat maneuver check) and after you have the enemy save in your chokehold end the rage.
If he manage to escape in the following two rounds, just rage again and go get him...


I realize this might not be what you're looking for (since you've already commented about monks and fighters), but a wildshaping Druid built around grappling can do insane things. This is something you won't really be able to do well til you get Wildshape, but i wanted all your options on the table.

I mean using pounce (Dire Tiger form) to charge w/ full attack, then grab whichever of your opponents you wish... then (if that weren't enough), handle that grappled foe like a rag-doll while you continue to make full attacks on the remaining opponents...

now that's just hotness.


May this please the thread
rogue thug1/MoM monk3/inquisitor(heresy)3
feats include: enforcer, intimidating prowess, grabbing style, kraken style and throttle, improved grapple.
Using a +1 cruel sap and gradually cause the target to gain cowering condition and just wail on them. Any advice would be helpful


I believe Tetori is a must as he can grapple just about anything.


I am going to say alchemist.

With the tentacle discovery, you can pull off a grappling build fairly well.

If the tentacle if your only natural attack, it is automatically primary and gets x1.5 str/power attack. That means you can fully enjoy its other ability- the grapple feature.

That ability gives you a +4 to attempt and maintain grapples, which gets past your BAB, and it lets you attempt a grapple as a free action on a successful hit. So even before you get all the regular grapple feats (which you can easily grab, since you have decent int), you can do fine.

After that, you just use your mutagens and extracts to raise your CMB.

One of the fun things about this build is that you can do a lot of other things as well. I like to combine it with a simple reach build- a long spear in your hands, and you can use the tentacle to threaten up close. It is not too hard to get all the necessary feats for both builds together by level 9.

And yes, you can't deal with incorperal enemiesby grappling in this build. But hey- that is why you have . Ectoplasmic bombs are fantastic for that problem.

Anyway, as a side benefit- tentacles. For that magical girl (or guy) in your life (or trying to end your life).

Liberty's Edge

Ellioti wrote:
I believe Tetori is a must as he can grapple just about anything.

This. It's what they do, their excuse for existing. All others are imitators.


Ever thought about a druid? Wildshape into a creature with grab and constrict (say an alraune), enjoy the bonuses to CMB due to size (plus wild shape), get some unsunderable items that improve your grapple skills (because your gear melds in wildshape), get a +4 to grapple thanks to the grab ability, get the powerful shape feat for an additional boost to CMB and watch your GM weep as you can grapple up to colossal creatures with CMB Boni that make every fighter cry to their mother at night.

Only "downside" is, that you would have to wait until level 6 when the first forms with grab ability (dire tiger, 5 attacks with pounce AND grab) become available.

I grappled a wendigo with CMD 47 with my wildshaped druid once (after dispelling his freedom of movement). The GM got so upset that the wendigo just left the fight. Fun times!

Oh and because you are a full caster, not only can you do all sorts of fun stuff with that, you also gain access to spells to buff yourself with even more CMB boni (see resinous skin).

To round that off, you also get an animal companion, that could also grapple an opponent.

Druids are VERY powerful grapplers, just not at lower levels.

Edit: Ok, so the spell, feat and form I proposed might not be available to you because of book restrictions. But many forms of wildshape get access to grab abilities, so the rest of what I wrote still stands.

Grand Lodge

I'm going to recommend you look at a brawler. No, it wont hit as high numbers as most optimized classes, but it'll be close. And because of their martial flexibility ability and other class abilities, you'll be able to do a LOT more a lot more effectively than any of those other classes. Focus on grappling, but you can use MF to disarm, bull rush, trip, or dirty trick when you need to, not to mention decent damage and a mess of attacks.


The issue with tetori is they can ONLY grapple. Vs many foes they suck. Vs one huge dragon- you either pin in round 1 or die from the full attack.
Vs ooze, ghost, swarms you suck. Vs a flame something- suck.
Be a druid or lore warden, dip 1 in maneuver master


Bloodrager with the Arcane Bloodline. It's basically Brawler & Sorcerer, with a disruptive aura that makes concentration checks more difficult.


welp... barbarian, fighter and monk would be my choices.

For all of them i would go with an very important item.
Belt, Anaconda’s Coils. This item will give you access to a feat line named "Final embrace"

Final embrace will give you access to constrict and grab attacks as long as you keep the belt on you.

For the Tetori, i would go for this featline.

Feat
1.
3. Kraken Style
5. Kraken Throttle
7. Kraken Wrack
9. Final Embrace
11. Final Embrace Horror
13. Final Embrace Master

For the barbarian, (brutal pugilist) i would go this featline.

Feats
H. Improved Unarmed Strike
1. Improved Grapple
3. Power attack
5. Catch off-guard
7. Greater Grapple
9. Vital strike
11. Improvised weapon mastery

The fighter is pretty open... But the Lore Warden archetype gives a huge boost to your grapple checks.


White Haired witch 2/Hexcrafter Magus actually makes a humorously powerful trip/grapple characer lol

Grand Lodge

lemeres wrote:

I am going to say alchemist.

With the tentacle discovery, you can pull off a grappling build fairly well.

Anyway, as a side benefit- tentacles. For that magical girl (or guy) in your life (or trying to end your life).

Hmm... For my grappling eidolon build, I may see if I can spare the cash for a cloak of tentacles.

Once a day, two extra grapples every round could be brutal.


Brawlers are great grapplers. True, they don't get some of the neato things Tetoris get, but their flexibility makes up for it! Some feats to consider... Deific Obediance for Faylana... +4 to grapple and to CMD! Also, throw the brawling enchantment on a Dan bong... Good times.

Also, stay far away from the Kraken line... It's a trap.


Faelyn wrote:

Brawlers are great grapplers. True, they don't get some of the neato things Tetoris get, but their flexibility makes up for it! Some feats to consider... Deific Obediance for Faylana... +4 to grapple and to CMD! Also, throw the brawling enchantment on a Dan bong... Good times.

Also, stay far away from the Kraken line... It's a trap.

Since I'm making a grappler build right now, I'm curious about your comment on the Kraken Style feats. Why is it a trap? You get a +2 bonus to maintain the grapple and wismod damage whenever you succeed on a grapple check with the style feat, and the rest increase that damage. The choking and the crushing might not be the best (although it just occurred to me that combining that with the Breathtaker rage power might be interesting... would grapple checks count as "successful melee attacks"? probably not... but if you were using Kraken Throttle and had a barbarian companion who had the Breathtaker rage power, that could work...)

Anyway, off point a bit. With Greater Grapple and Rapid Grappler, you can get 3 grapple checks a round, which each would automatically deal Wisdom damage (+4 if you go the full line). If you also have constrict (Final Embrace, Anaconda Coils belt, or a high enough level Tetori) you do that damage automatically in addition to whatever choice you make (including doing damage). Doesn't seem like a trap to me...

Grabbing Style, however, does seem like a trap to me for a grappler, oddly.


a worthy feat is Equipment trick
"
Hogtie (Improved Grapple): When you attempt to tie up an opponent you are grappling, your penalty is only –5 instead of the normal –10.
"
with greater grapple, it's a 1 rounder to hog tie someone .
game over.

but - a tetori is a trap. it's amazing - but a real one trick pony.
you meet a huge dragon - you DONT want to grab it.
ant than you cant do anything.


Andreas0815 wrote:

Hmm, no love for the grappling barbarian?

Just rage, use Strength Surge (The barbarian adds her barbarian level on one Strength check or combat maneuver check) and after you have the enemy save in your chokehold end the rage.
If he manage to escape in the following two rounds, just rage again and go get him...

I've got a grappler barbarian right now in a game with some newbie friends, and while I'm still too low level to reap the fruits of my labor i think it's a pretty good deal.

Brutal Pugilist is a good archetype to take up, as it swaps uncanny dodge for the ability to reduce your grappled condition penalties to 0 by level 5, and also grant you a sweet little bonus to CMB and CMD to a few things (though since it swaps trap sense, you can't stack it all up on grapple)

Strength Surge is indeed great and I should find room for it, but more important are a couple other Barbarian rage powers that could be really helpful:

Raging Grappler, which A) lets you damage on a successful Initiate, meaning that even if the enemy breaks your grapple on a lucky roll, they waste their standard action and you still got in some damage, and B) lets you put an enemy prone while maintaining, giving them a vulnerability to your continued grapple rolls even before pinning them (+4 to melee attack rolls, and any bonus that applies to attack rolls applies to CMB as well)

and Animal Fury, which, while seemingly weak and hard to hit with, can be used as a free action at the beginning of a grapple round to gain a free +2 to the grapple check. It can also be boosted up a die with another power.

Personally, I'm pairing the setup with the Beast Totem line of powers (since the claw attacks you get let you attack for eventually 1d8 per round, but without the -4 penalty for using one hand to grapple; it also sets me up to take Multiattack and only take a -2 penalty on the bite from Animal Fury. the Natural Armor bonus is also nice, as it eventually counteracts the default penalty to AC from rage). Overall, it creates a barbarian who can, while raging, grasp a foe in his claws and maul it to death super hard.


One generally overlooked option is the Oracle of Battle. First you use Maneuver Mastery to make your grapple BAB = level (or 1.5xlevel with the right favored class bonus...). Then you use Fate's Favored + Divine Favor.

Once interesting combat style would be to pick up a level of Maneuver Master Monk and Grabbing Style, so that you can attack something with a weapon even as you grapple it. Throw in the Oracle of Battle's Surprise Charge and you can move up, grapple and full attack all in one round.

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