I have a setting that I've been developing for several years now thats based off a sort of Jungian dreamscape. Its one of my prime enjoyments because I have to purposely think outside of the regular scheme of how things might work, which is surprisingly tough. One of my latest thoughts regarded the "gods" of the setting, which are essentially the physical manifestation of cultural memes. As in, they're created from humanoid kind's collective thoughts. It would take an immense amount of collective thought to give a meme a physical appearance (to prevent there from being millions of memes for every small group of like-minded thinkers), but then I wondered: why should this stop at memes?
So from there I've been contemplating the repercussions of allowing whatever is collectively believed to be, well, made true over time (like the gods). For instance, because the vast majority of sailers believe in the tales of the kraken, the kraken thus becomes a real thing.
I've been giving this some thought and I don't think I can work it all out on my own without creating some guidelines... I understand that things can get crazy real fast with this idea, but it nonetheless interests me.
So I ask, would anyone be willing to help me with this? Give some scenarios where this might be interesting, or where it might get crazy? This isn't set in stone, but I see it as a sort of creative thought exercise for myself. What do you guys and gals think?
EDIT: Also, I wasn't sure where to post this, but I apologize if its in the wrong forum.
So I ask, would anyone be willing to help me with this? Give some scenarios where this might be interesting, or where it might get crazy? This isn't set in stone, but I see it as a sort of creative thought exercise for myself. What do you guys and gals think?
The setting for Exalted does something like this. There were thousands of little gods that didn't have any real power.
How to do it? Set up the major gods, and don't allow PCs to create new ones. The psychic energy builds slowly, over time. "Death" would be powerful. "Nature" would be powerful. The god of the PC's sword doens't have any power, despite any prayers made to it.
Wow, how strange that this would come up when I was just discussing such a matter with a good friend just a couple days ago. Go go Internet Synchronicity!
I'm not sure if it will be of any use in terms of campaign design, but check out the following Wikipedia article on Yogic Thoughtforms:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulpa
Another thing that springs to mind is what I recall hearing about an RPG that I've never played: Mage, the Ascension. From what I was told, magic is basically the power of imagination. However, if you do something that's too much a stretch from what is considered normal, the disbelief of the mundanes will cancel out the spell.
If our own universe were like that of your dreamscape, then such underlying laws of reality could explain why there are fewer reports of supernatural events the further science develops when as compared to in the Old Testament, etc. At the same time, things like ghosts and such persist because of people's subconscious fears about them — i.e. irrational thoughts that even the reason of science cannot quell.
So I ask, would anyone be willing to help me with this? Give some scenarios where this might be interesting, or where it might get crazy? This isn't set in stone, but I see it as a sort of creative thought exercise for myself. What do you guys and gals think?
The setting for Exalted does something like this. There were thousands of little gods that didn't have any real power.
How to do it? Set up the major gods, and don't allow PCs to create new ones. The psychic energy builds slowly, over time. "Death" would be powerful. "Nature" would be powerful. The god of the PC's sword doens't have any power, despite any prayers made to it.
If you have belief=power, you don't have forgotten artifacts. If nobody remembers something, it has no juice behind it. But the longsword of the hero who's been carving his way through the goblin tribes of the mountain might have a few plusses. Swords who's stories are still told would retain power long after the deeds that gave then their juice were history. If goblin mothers scare their children with names like Glamdring or Orcrist, when some random adventuerers pull them out of a trolls collection of loot, they are still going to cut a swath through goblin-kind.
A king might be a mighty warrior because people believe he is, and their faith gives him a little extra juice. You might end up with god-kings, eternal heros of legend. As long as people believe, they live. Bards would be very powerful, in a long-term metagame sense. The worst punishment would be having your name stuck from all records and shunned and forgotten.
I have given thought to setting up a world like this, and it has a lot of potential. A few odd quirks, but they add a bit of character. You can make it go a lot of ways by tweaking some concepts.
I had a campaign like this once before. The PC's did a lot of sailing on a ship and one of the islands they visited had tribespeople who worshiped their boat as a god before they came to shore. It became a little funny after that. Wherever they went they spread the religion of Boat and ended up with a sentient divine sailing ship. So that was grand.
This setting is practically begging for a Truenamer type class.
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If you have belief=power, you don't have forgotten artifacts. If nobody remembers something, it has no juice behind it. But the longsword of the hero who's been carving his way through the goblin tribes of the mountain might have a few plusses. Swords who's stories are still told would retain power long after the deeds that gave then their juice were history. If goblin mothers scare their children with names like Glamdring or Orcrist, when some random adventuerers pull them out of a trolls collection of loot, they are still going to cut a swath through goblin-kind.
And here's where players can derail the game. Thus, you as the GM, and only you, get to determine what has power.
In the Exalted game, I made a point to have my character give offerings and prayers to the little god of the ship he captained. This had absolutely no game effect. But if I gave an offering, and the ship survived a hurricane, the crew might begin to do the same thing. The GM made no promises, but from a role-playing perspective it offered a fun quirk.
As for cool ideas, I like what Khuldar says: Nobody remembers, then that little god goes away. What happens when the little gods band together and seek out the PCs to spread word and belief? Is there a celestial authority to regulate which little gods get what (can the God of the River absorb the God of the Stream, or is the God of the Stream beholden to the God of the Mountain as well as Old Man Winter, since snow falling on the mountain melts to create the stream)?
But what happens if there is some quirk that allows a powerful being to somehow still exist? A forgotten power? What is the nature of the BBEG? OMG! WE DON'T KNOW! THERE IS NO RECORD! (which would strangely increase his power, since the power of the unknown feeds the Unknown.) Is there a true secret to immortality? That single question is enough to feed a campaign.
What about fairy tales in your world? If enough children believe that there are monsters under the bed, then monsters will form under beds. This might create a significant hinderance to the culture, as "make believe" is discouraged as a cultural more.
If you have belief=power, you don't have forgotten artifacts. If nobody remembers something, it has no juice behind it. But the longsword of the hero who's been carving his way through the goblin tribes of the mountain might have a few plusses. Swords who's stories are still told would retain power long after the deeds that gave then their juice were history. If goblin mothers scare their children with names like Glamdring or Orcrist, when some random adventuerers pull them out of a trolls collection of loot, they are still going to cut a swath through goblin-kind.
A king might be a mighty warrior because people believe he is, and their faith gives him a little extra juice. You might end up with god-kings, eternal heros of legend. As long as people believe, they live. Bards would be very powerful, in a long-term metagame sense. The worst punishment would be having your name stuck from all records and shunned and forgotten.
I have given thought to setting up a world like this, and it has a lot of potential. A few odd quirks, but they add a bit of character. You can make it go a lot of ways by tweaking some concepts.
I have a unique race of beings called The Forgotten, an anomaly amidst my world. They break the Law of Remembrance in that they still exist as shadowy entities, who turn invisible when they don clothing, so it appears as though the clothes are hanging on nothingness. They may once have been a certain race, but for one reason or another, were forgotten by the world yet still remain.
There are also towers set up around the civilized realm so people can observe the landscapes, making sure they don't shift around when someone isn't watching. A lot of the world has yet to be explored, and sometimes an unmarked mountain might go missing and appear somewhere else. Its uncommon, though.
I do like the idea of god-kings, though. I'll might take that idea for a spin.
Wow, how strange that this would come up when I was just discussing such a matter with a good friend just a couple days ago. Go go Internet Synchronicity!
I'm not sure if it will be of any use in terms of campaign design, but check out the following Wikipedia article on Yogic Thoughtforms:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulpa** spoiler omitted **
Another thing that springs to mind is what I recall hearing about an RPG that I've never played: Mage, the Ascension. From what I was told, magic is basically the power of imagination. However, if you do something that's too much a stretch from what is considered normal, the disbelief of the mundanes will cancel out the spell.
If our own universe were like that of your dreamscape, then such underlying laws of reality could explain why there are fewer reports of supernatural events the further science develops when as compared to in the Old Testament, etc. At the same time, things like ghosts and such persist because of people's subconscious fears about them — i.e. irrational thoughts that even the reason of science cannot quell.
Thanks! I will check that out when I get the chance. I've heard of Mage, the Ascension, but I know literally nothing about it. I actually really like that spin on it, I may try and adopt that.
I wonder if you have been reading American Gods? If not, you might want to give it a read.
Old Gods fighting new gods like "TV".
You're the third person to recommend that to me. I think I might just have to pick that up then!
PS: I've seen people do multiple quotations in a single post, how do you do that?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Well, two thoughts...
Do the people of the world know this? IOW, would Golarion's Razmir know that by making people believe he's a god, he becomes one? Just thinking it might be an interesting epic goal for a PC, to have others believe him to divinity.
Do the gods/monsters of the world know they're the result of belief? If people believe enough in the Kraken to conjure it up, will the Kraken cease to exist if it convinces enough people that it doesn't. Will the god of bows cease to exist if people start using muskets?
Who counts (ok that's three) in Mage, for example, it seems that consentual reality was defined by non-awakened humans. It didn't matter that a bunch of Werewolves believed that spirits walk among us, they didn't because the consensus of humans didn't.
Well, two thoughts...
Do the people of the world know this? IOW, would Golarion's Razmir know that by making people believe he's a god, he becomes one? Just thinking it might be an interesting epic goal for a PC, to have others believe him to divinity.
Do the gods/monsters of the world know they're the result of belief? If people believe enough in the Kraken to conjure it up, will the Kraken cease to exist if it convinces enough people that it doesn't. Will the god of bows cease to exist if people start using muskets?
Who counts (ok that's three) in Mage, for example, it seems that consentual reality was defined by non-awakened humans. It didn't matter that a bunch of Werewolves believed that spirits walk among us, they didn't because the consensus of humans didn't.
Yes, many would be aware of this phenomenon, but not all. Those with a proper education might have knowledge of it, as would many city folk, but the rest would only know of it through others.
Good question. The gods most certainly do, and understand that in order to maintain their power, they need to have people believe in them. As such, a god of bows would fade away if muskets gained popularity (he wouldn't be forgotten, though, he would simply lose enough followers that he wouldn't be able to keep his physical form). I'm honestly not sure about monsters. some of the more bestial ones wouldn't care to know/might be incapable of knowing, but if creatures like trolls are the result of collective fears, then they might be sentient enough to know their existence hinges on maintaining those fears. My only concern would be that this allows people to essentially create new races: should enough people believe in the Drow, then BAM, Drow exist. Not sure how I feel about that.
Interesting take on it. I've thought to question the relativity of people's beliefs... if Elves believe that crops will magically harvest themselves and Human's don't, then which is true? If Dwarves believe Gnomes to be the spawn of hell and Halflings don't, do they each see different things when viewing a Gnome? I'll probably have to come up with certain guidelines as to what beliefs reign above others, like Mage does. Lastly, like you said about werewolves, I would think that krakens wouldn't be able to convince people they aren't real for the same reasons werewolves can't convince people that spirits walk amongst them.
As this develops, it seems to conflict with my older idea: the world is the dreamer, and everything it dreams up emerges from the Labyrinth (the Labyrinth being the "brain-like" structure deep below the plane that "thinks things through." Once a thing has been thought through, it escapes the Labyrinth and enters the upper world). If people can create their own things, then maybe the Labyrinth remains only to create things the world dreams up. For example, if the world dreamt up trolls from the Labyrinth, they might be capable of forming a society and actually developing like other races, but if Humans dreamt them up out of fear, they would remain as beings only capable of spreading their fear.
It's stuff like this that I really like to ponder about. Thanks! I'm still open for any other thoughts or suggestions.
There are some good stories that you might want to read. One of the Dilvish stories by Roger Zelazny has a god who is down to thier last few worshippers, and looks at what happens in that situation.
I believe there's a Terry Prachett novel with a god who has been reduced to a talking statue the size of a flower pot.
Under this rule, it's going to affect divine casters a LOT. Religion is no longer a live and let live proposition. There is a DIRECT reason to interfere with other cults and sects, because you are fighting for more worshippers.
The darksword books by weis and hickman have a pantheon of gods that have different approaches to power. Do you have a great many worshippers pay lip service, or a few super-devout elites, or something in the middle?
Most gods would have a vested interest in protecting their places of worship. It would not be unusual to have a high-powered servant, like a naga or hound archon hanging out to defend a holy place, 24/7.
It could also be possible for belief to show up on a national level. (The crown of the Severii protects the Emperor from all harm).
Lots of good ideas behind this concept, sounds like fun.
You need Inertia
Many of the posts in this thread seem to imply that there is an almost immediate cause/effect relationship in the world (think of Bradbury's Illustrated Man and the story of the fellow who believed if he wasn't looking at something it didn't even exist, including a person upon whom he'd just turned his back).
I suggest that the universe needs Ideation Inertia ... the premise that changes can happen, but they are slow. Gods do not appear and disappear in a single lifetime. A "forgotten deity" who was once vastly powerful still has an opportunity to manifest physically and attempt to restore their faith before they fade away. "Forgotten relics" (to reference a prior post) do not suddenly disappear once the last person to remember about them dies, but rather slowly "leak" out their power and energy, but could still be found and used and remain (relatively) powerful. References to them in books might keep them around for a time.
I think changes need to happen over the course of generations, or at least decades. It needs to be difficult to nearly impossible for a mortal individual to achieve divine status, and would require a vast amount of faith and veneration over an extended period of time. Achieving post-mortem sainthood or ascension over a period of generations is a more likely consequence.
Without an "inertial" factor, the sheer surreal Wonderlandishness of the world would inherently threaten its stability.
A major premise of Mage was that only the Awakened knew about the mutability of reality and could interact with it. In order for a society to have any stability, it's probably an important factor. It must either remain unknown to the common people that this is how reality operates, or it must operate very slowly, or both.
Of course, it's still possible for "players" in the world (arch-wizards, high-priests, king-makers and so forth) to know about the mutability of reality and thus take steps to alter it, but this would really...
I didn't realize there was such a title for it, but I wasn't planning on having it be an instantaneous thing. Ideation Inertia sounds splendid, in that case. One of my interests is to think about what effect a nation that utilizes extreme censorship would have on its populace. The world is dotted with sages who scour the world for facts and facets of knowledge to record and keep from being forgotten, so books become a primary way to keep things in fluctuation, or they can take dangerous artifacts and attempt to let them fade away over a long period of time by never recording it.
By the way, thanks for the tips. I was curious if there was some button I couldn't find or if I had to do it the old-fashioned way of copy and paste.
There are some good stories that you might want to read. One of the Dilvish stories by Roger Zelazny has a god who is down to thier last few worshippers, and looks at what happens in that situation.
I believe there's a Terry Prachett novel with a god who has been reduced to a talking statue the size of a flower pot.
Under this rule, it's going to affect divine casters a LOT. Religion is no longer a live and let live proposition. There is a DIRECT reason to interfere with other cults and sects, because you are fighting for more worshippers.
The darksword books by weis and hickman have a pantheon of gods that have different approaches to power. Do you have a great many worshippers pay lip service, or a few super-devout elites, or something in the middle?
Most gods would have a vested interest in protecting their places of worship. It would not be unusual to have a high-powered servant, like a naga or hound archon hanging out to defend a holy place, 24/7.
It could also be possible for belief to show up on a national level. (The crown of the Severii protects the Emperor from all harm).
Lots of good ideas behind this concept, sounds like fun.
Pantheons of gods would also be important. If you have worshipers of Thor recalling stories of him smashing Loki, both gods are being remembered. Across town the Loki cultists are snickering about the time their god outsmarted the big lug. Once again, juice for both.
When pantheons interact you would have problems. Who is the god of strength? You'd have multiple ones in conflict. probably a lot of holy wars, or theological debates. If you can get people to believe that their local god is just an aspect of your Big god, You get a lot more believers quick. Of course, now your god is going to be slightly affected by the vision of the new worshippers.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Hmm, interesting note about competing gods...
Can one god pretend to be another? For example, lets say we have Wu Shu, the god of unarmed combat and acrobatic combat.
Then we have Parakeilos, the god of unarmed combat from another culture that specializes in a brutal close up wrestling. Clerics of Parakelios travel to Wu Shu's land and start saying "Your god likes kicks and flips, our god likes grappling and overbearing, but they're the same god, both of unarmed combat." Over time would Wu Shu cease to exist as Parakeilos cane to fame? Or would he just merge into Parakelios as they are constantly compared.
For that matter, what happens if Parakelios, boosted to be more powerful than Wu Shu, kills Wu Shu? Can he kill him?
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So I ask, would anyone be willing to help me with this? Give some scenarios where this might be interesting, or where it might get crazy?
If someone realizes this, it's possible through powerful magic to *kill an idea.* By removing all memory of a specific individual or type of creature, it might be possible to remove them from existence, or, at the least, drastically reduce their power. (Although, to kill a person this way, you'd probably have to erase their own memories as well, turning them into an amnesiac that would fade away over time.)
Songs that mock or belittle rulers or great priests or whatever wouldn't just be slanderous, they could be damaging, or even deadly.
Rumors spread that someone is ill, or has died, could cause them very real physical symptoms, as the more people believe they are sick (or dead), the more negative psychic energy is building up against them, attempting to make them sick (or dead).
Transformations would also be possible, with a lurid rumor that the king's son isn't really his son resulting in an actual change in the boy's body, perhaps causing a birthmark to vanish, or his eyes to gradually become the color of the rumored 'real father,' while a rumor that the unpopular vizier is secretly a member of an rival kingdom sent to destabilize the region could be 'proven' by the appearance of traits that only members of that enemy country possess. Heck, someone could even become a vampire or werewolf, if enough people believe strongly enough that they *are* such a creature, and the 'Blood Countess Bathory' could find that the rumors about her have become true, as her fascination with blood becomes an actual dependency.
Quibbly side-corner situations also occur, such as what happens if only one person knows about something. Does it grow 'less real,' and become something half-real and half-glamor / shadow? Could some aged spellcaster know of a forgotten ruin accessible only through a supposedly caved-in played-out mine shaft, and retire there, to a place that only he knows exists, where he would be effectively immune to scrying, as no other spellcaster would be able to see into a place that, to them, does not exist. He'd basically have a free 'Rope Trick', in that he's found a place that is fully real to him, but an impenetrable forgotten mystery to anyone else. (The real danger of discovery becomes not the spellcaster with a crystal ball, but the scholar with a tome of ancient history who finds reference to his secret hideaway!)
You need Inertia
Many of the posts in this thread seem to imply that there is an almost immediate cause/effect relationship in the world.
I suggest that the universe needs Ideation Inertia ... the premise that changes can happen, but they are slow.
Without an "inertial" factor, the sheer surreal Wonderlandishness of the world would inherently threaten its stability.
Quoting what I felt were the most important points to take away from Rez's post. I agree 100%.
As a suggestion on how you could "model" this, consider [from the 3.5 Manual of the Planes] the planar trait that impedes magic. For speed of play, you could use this mechanic to ensure that casters must first pass a caster level check in order to affect reality. This would also apply to what I'm going to suggest next...
For how normal people's thoughts affect reality, I believe it was the 2nd Ed Tome of Magic that contained "faith magic". Basically, this involved hundreds or even thousands of normal folks concentrating their prayers thru a celebrant to effect spell-like effects. With that in mind, I'd suggest that you would need to determine a threshold of people that must hold a belief to effect a change in reality. i.e. 100 people for a 1st-level effect, 500 for a 2nd-level perhaps upto half the world's population to cause changes on par with what a 9th-level spell might accomplish.
With that said, strong emotions such as love, fear, and hate would probably be more apt to cause reality to shift than idle gossip. If one of the most commonly held truths in the world is "Just 'cause ya say somethin' don't make it true," then that would tend to cancel out quite a bit. On the flip side, words spoken at the height of great passion such as the curse of a dying "witch" unjustly murdered, might not only hold power themselves, but the fear of the person so cursed (and the doubt/guilt in their hearts) could make-it-so.
P.S. It would help keep the thread cleaner if people would edit down quotations a bit to just the relevant parts. There's no need to quote an entire post that lies immediately above your reply.
Amen!