A Suggestion for an Advanced Gamemaster's Guide- Dump Alignment


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Clockwork pickle wrote:
I remember seeing a suggestion that detect evil should be replaced with a bonus to sense motive checks. I like this idea quite well.

That is a GREAT idea:

PALADIN CLASS FEATURE

Divine Insight (Ex): A paladin adds half his level (minimum 1) to Sense Motive checks.

Of course, by the book, the only uses for Sense Motive are get a hunch, sense enchantment, and discern secret message.....and a check "generally takes at least 1 minute, and you could spend a whole evening trying to get a sense of the people around you." So, the skill needs expansion and clarification, but I still like the idea.


Can'tFindthePath wrote:
Clockwork pickle wrote:
I remember seeing a suggestion that detect evil should be replaced with a bonus to sense motive checks. I like this idea quite well.

That is a GREAT idea:

PALADIN CLASS FEATURE

Divine Insight (Ex): A paladin adds half his level (minimum 1) to Sense Motive checks.

Of course, by the book, the only uses for Sense Motive are get a hunch, sense enchantment, and discern secret message.....and a check "generally takes at least 1 minute, and you could spend a whole evening trying to get a sense of the people around you." So, the skill needs expansion and clarification, but I still like the idea.

yep, it would really put the emphasis on investigate first, smite later.

smiting fiends is one thing, but other humans/demihumans (sorry, old player)? should take a while to be sure, take more evidence than a hunch.


d20pfsrd.com wrote:
Dr. Johnny Fever wrote:

Remember how we used to have Basic D&D (and later Expert, Master, et al) as a completely separate animal from Advanced D&D, which was what all the cool kids were playing? Maybe we could have the same set up for Pathfinder. The system as it stands today would be Pathfinder Basic, while Pathfinder Advanced could incorporate such things as:

> Removal of the alignment system
> Replace the (imo) clunky Vancian magic system with one based on either spell points or something else entirely (think WFRP)
> Modifying the rules for high level (13+) play so that 40% of the game's core (1-20) level range doesn't sit fallow and (relatively) untouched by designers, players and DMs
> Rules for epic level play that didn't make one weep tears of blood
> More specific (re: graphic) critical hit tables a la Rolemaster

You should check out Microlite d20. It does the first two you mention and is also (somewhat) compatible with d20 books and supplements.

Actually, he should check out 4e. It does pretty much everything except the final point. Yes, it technically still has alignment but just barely.


Clockwork pickle wrote:
smiting fiends is one thing, but other humans/demihumans (sorry, old player)? should take a while to be sure, take more evidence than a hunch.

You are aware that anything other than undead, outsiders, or divine servants (clerics, etc that have an aura as a class feature) don't show up on detect evil if they don't have at least 5 hit dice? That means most serial killers won't even show up, let alone anyone more petty.

EDIT: Not to mention that detect evil is not detect guilt. One can be evil without ever having done anything evil. Few good DMs would let a player get away with using detect evil as a justification for murder.


Zurai wrote:
Clockwork pickle wrote:
smiting fiends is one thing, but other humans/demihumans (sorry, old player)? should take a while to be sure, take more evidence than a hunch.

You are aware that anything other than undead, outsiders, or divine servants (clerics, etc that have an aura as a class feature) don't show up on detect evil if they don't have at least 5 hit dice? That means most serial killers won't even show up, let alone anyone more petty.

EDIT: Not to mention that detect evil is not detect guilt. One can be evil without ever having done anything evil. Few good DMs would let a player get away with using detect evil as a justification for murder.

It's also interesting to note that Detect Evil will also detect evil intent. Get so pissed off at the merchant that you think of killing him - You may detect as evil at the time, even if you do not act on the thoughts/intent.


Zurai wrote:


You are aware that anything other than undead, outsiders, or divine servants (clerics, etc that have an aura as a class feature) don't show up on detect evil if they don't have at least 5 hit dice? That means most serial killers won't even show up, let alone anyone more petty.

EDIT: Not to mention that detect evil is not detect guilt. One can be evil without ever having done anything evil. Few good DMs would let a player get away with using detect evil as a justification for murder.

Thanks for the reminder about the HD minimum. I am still getting my head around the rule changes in PF. That goes some way towards possible mis-smiting of civilians.

not sure that I share your optimism about how effective (or desirable) GM interpretation or policing of the paladin code is, but I agree that killing someone simply because they register on evil-dar is not good roleplaying of a Paladin.

I like the idea of the paladin engaging in more social interaction and being better at detecting lies (i.e. bluffing) and having a good gut feeling about how trustworthy people are. let's face it, detect evil is pretty unnecessary for most campaigns. The BBEG is the one trying to kill your party. Mostly I see it abused to circumvent perception by constantly detecting for hidden evil (i.e. most stealthy creatures the party is likely to encounter in a dungeon crawl).

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
We can't just dump alignment. Not only do we at Paizo actually like the alignment system... but it's built into the game in the form of spells, magic item abilities, character classes, monster subtypes, monster abilities. and more. Excising alignment completely from the game would be a HUGE undertaking and it's not something we're interested in doing. Especially since, like it or not, the alignment system is one of the most iconic and publicly recognizable elements of the game.

Agreed. Please leave alignment be. 4E tried to mess with it and made it stupid.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber
Zurai wrote:
Clockwork pickle wrote:
smiting fiends is one thing, but other humans/demihumans (sorry, old player)? should take a while to be sure, take more evidence than a hunch.

You are aware that anything other than undead, outsiders, or divine servants (clerics, etc that have an aura as a class feature) don't show up on detect evil if they don't have at least 5 hit dice? That means most serial killers won't even show up, let alone anyone more petty.

EDIT: Not to mention that detect evil is not detect guilt. One can be evil without ever having done anything evil. Few good DMs would let a player get away with using detect evil as a justification for murder.

That's right. The only ones with detect guilt are the Hellknights (when they activate "Detect Chaos" anyone within range is subject to their "discern lies" ability... neat!)

Dark Archive

I don't have a problem with the role-playing aspects of alignment. My DM and I often have very different interpretations of what constitutes CG behaviour, but whilst it leads to some interesting discussions there is no in-game effect.

What I don't like are the mechanical aspects.

Meet a half-fiend with significantly more HD than you have (even if the CR is supposedly level appropriate) and he can kill the entire party with a word, although at least in Pathfinder you now get a save.

Fight an opponent who can cast Unholy Blight, and marvel at how it does twice as much damage to you than to the rest of the party, since they had the foresight to put Neutral in the alignment box. (The boot would be on the other foot if the bad guy casts Holy Smite on the party instead - but by definition that never, ever happens.)

Our last party had two N characters and one CG character.

This time round, we are all N.

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