Books Falling Apart?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Dark Archive

Has anyone else experienced faulty bindings in their adventure path copies or any other book? Thus far, half of my Council of Thieves adventure path has started falling apart. Entire sections of the books have just come loose and started falling out. Customer service was generous enough to send me another copy of The Sixfold Trial when I brought it to their attention, but this seems to be a recurring problem. I saw mention of similar circumstances in the Council of Thieves forum and the Second Darkness forum.

I've noticed The Twice-Damned Prince seems to use a different glue to bind the pages. I am just wondering if this is a known issue that has already been addressed or if the new glue was just coincidence.


Dumb question, but do you ever leave your book out open, laying flat on its spine, and set other books on top of it?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

My copy of Gods and Magic did the same thing. That's the only one so far, but I've probably used it more than any of the other similarly formatted books I've got. I do suspect the same will happen to my other books over time due to simple guilt by association.

I never leave my books open so I'm pretty sure it isn't due to the spine cracking. I just figured it was weak glue.


Yep. This happened to my core rulebook a few months back.


I'm pretty sure the glue is of inferior quality.
I left my book in my car once. I'm positive the sunlight/warmth ruined the glue. My fault I guess for leaving it in the car on a summer day, but still I didn't expect the book to be so... fragile.

Liberty's Edge

The only AP that has been seeing serious use is "The Legacy of Fire" and it is holding up fine so far.

Subscribing to the AP's and all other products gets me the PDF as well, so the fact that I read much of the info on the computer may be prolonging the life of my paper products.

Dark Archive

Joshua J. Frost wrote:
Dumb question, but do you ever leave your book out open, laying flat on its spine, and set other books on top of it?

No sir, not that I am aware.

I use the books at the game table, so I will typically have a book lying open but not weighed down. Since the first book fell apart I have made a special point to be more delicate with the others, to no avail.

I still have my original copy of Bastards of Erebus, which I have used and perused far more than any of the other books in the AP, and it has not lost a page.

With the exception of transport between locations (stacked neatly in a backpack), my books are kept in an air-conditioned environment (in-doors).

Liberty's Edge

Velcro Zipper wrote:

My copy of Gods and Magic did the same thing. That's the only one so far, but I've probably used it more than any of the other similarly formatted books I've got. I do suspect the same will happen to my other books over time due to simple guilt by association.

I never leave my books open so I'm pretty sure it isn't due to the spine cracking. I just figured it was weak glue.

Same here with Gods and Magic.

Sczarni

I'm foreseeing this with my core rulebook. I ordered it online (new, not like new, not used, etc. NEW). When I got it, it wasn't too bad, but as I used it, it became creeky and I can't stand it up with other books because i'm afraid the pages will eventually fall out. Not to mention some of the pages had glue leak into them so I have a few small spots of white scratch from having to gently unbind pages.


I have all the Pathfinder suplements and none of them have any problem.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

From the beginning I have seen these books as collectors items and therefore I have glanced through some of them but when I really use them I print the PDF and put it in a note book or report binder and use it that way.

One day I think that pristine copies will be work something.

Bob


Shem wrote:
One day I think that pristine copies will be work something.

Considering when I was 14 I paid $55 for a non-falling apart copy of Unearthed Arcana, I think you're right :)

My books have held up well in general. Runelords and Second Darkness (which we just finished running) are in perfect shape. Gods & Magic has had a section come loose. My S/O is a little harsher on the books, and did have a section come loose from the Sixfold Trials.

Dark Archive

So, including myself that's 7 out of 10, thus far. With such little data I can't really suggest this problem is widespread, but how many instances have to occur before someone should care? I would pose this question to both the consumer and the publisher.

I have bought many RPG Supplements over the years and this is my first encounter with a problem of this nature. I am satisfied with the products I am receiving and would like to continue to support them. However, my ability to support the Pathfinder lines will be diminished after I consider the cost of having my books either spiral-bound or hermetically sealed and stored in an underground air-conditioned dry storage facility.


The only book I've ever had any problems with was Gods and Magic, but I didn't say anything when it first happened, so that's totally on me. But that is the only book I've had any problem with out of a ton of books from Paizo.

Liberty's Edge

Gui_Shih wrote:

So, including myself that's 7 out of 10, thus far. With such little data I can't really suggest this problem is widespread, but how many instances have to occur before someone should care? I would pose this question to both the consumer and the publisher.

Are you looking for everyone to report in? I've had not problems yet.

Dark Archive

Githzilla wrote:


Are you looking for everyone to report in? I've had not problems yet.

Not necessarily. I am wondering if I am just unlucky and have gotten those few in the print-run that are sub-par or if this is a fairly common problem. If it is a common occurrence, my intent is to raise awareness as the publisher may not even be aware there is a problem.

Dark Archive

The book I'm having trouble with is the pathfinder campaign book.

Liberty's Edge

Gui_Shih wrote:
If it is a common occurrence, my intent is to raise awareness as the publisher may not even be aware there is a problem.

I agree with you. Although I haven't had a problem yet, I'm glad to see a post like this just to get a feel for what issues are out there. I bet Paizo appreciates this feedback as well, to help keep on top of quality control.


Shem wrote:

From the beginning I have seen these books as collectors items and therefore I have glanced through some of them but when I really use them I print the PDF and put it in a note book or report binder and use it that way.

One day I think that pristine copies will be work something.

Bob

Even if you don't regard the books as collector items, this is the only way to go if you EXPECT to keep the books in good condition over the long term. Especially the paperbacks.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path #1 is on eBay for $999.99


The Pathfinder Campaign book I have has covers that are bowing outward. I keep the books kept vertical almost all of the time, and do not leave them out open.

Scarab Sages

Jared Ouimette wrote:
Pathfinder Adventure Path #1 is on eBay for $999.99

I don't see it on ebay but there is a copy on Amazon for that price.

That's almost tempting to sell my copy and fund my vacation to Origins this year.

On the other hand, if I hold onto my copy, I might be able to put one of my kids through college in a few years. O.o

Liberty's Edge

If I sold all of my 3.5 books, I might be able to buy a Big Mac.


Dave the Barbarian wrote:
If I sold all of my 3.5 books, I might be able to buy a Big Mac.

Interestingly, I sold my used PHB 3.5 for $41 on amazon not too long ago.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
JTStorm wrote:
The Pathfinder Campaign book I have has covers that are bowing outward. I keep the books kept vertical almost all of the time, and do not leave them out open.

Now this problem I have had with two different Campaign books (bought the second one and gave the first to my son due to this problem - and now the second one is doing it).


Ah, glory be to Chinese printers.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Pages of my Gods and Magic book have fallen out, but that is it.

Dark Archive

Drawmij's_Heir wrote:
Shem wrote:

From the beginning I have seen these books as collectors items and therefore I have glanced through some of them but when I really use them I print the PDF and put it in a note book or report binder and use it that way.

One day I think that pristine copies will be work something.

Bob

Even if you don't regard the books as collector items, this is the only way to go if you EXPECT to keep the books in good condition over the long term. Especially the paperbacks.

Once upon a time, I had almost every book in Palladium's fantasy and RIFTS line--all paperback. I treated my PFRPG 2nd edition like a football. The cover was warped and the laminate was peeling, but I never had a problem with entire chapters falling out.

Jared Ouimette wrote:
Pathfinder Adventure Path #1 is on eBay for $999.99

I had one bought for 8$, two weeks ago. The seller backed out for some reason...

Dark Archive

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Shem wrote:
JTStorm wrote:
The Pathfinder Campaign book I have has covers that are bowing outward. I keep the books kept vertical almost all of the time, and do not leave them out open.
Now this problem I have had with two different Campaign books (bought the second one and gave the first to my son due to this problem - and now the second one is doing it).

Actually, that's interesting since this has been my experience with the bestiary. Not just my copy mind you but all 3 my gaming group has bought. Now this doesn't bother us terribly much as we are all avid users of the books and not worried about collecting but still thought it was worth mentioning.

Sovereign Court

Icaste Fyrbawl wrote:
I'm foreseeing this with my core rulebook. I ordered it online (new, not like new, not used, etc. NEW). When I got it, it wasn't too bad, but as I used it, it became creeky and I can't stand it up with other books because i'm afraid the pages will eventually fall out.

Same here, the binding seems to be coming loose in the first 10-20 pages of my book and I have been treating it like a holy relic the whole time.


I ran Rise of the Runelords and never had an issue with the glue, but while running Council of Thieves the pages have all been falling out midway through the adventure. I am light on the books since I use the pdf a lot. Not sure if the glues was changed but I've noticed a big difference in durability over the years.


Dark Arioch wrote:
Shem wrote:
JTStorm wrote:
The Pathfinder Campaign book I have has covers that are bowing outward. I keep the books kept vertical almost all of the time, and do not leave them out open.
Now this problem I have had with two different Campaign books (bought the second one and gave the first to my son due to this problem - and now the second one is doing it).
Actually, that's interesting since this has been my experience with the bestiary. Not just my copy mind you but all 3 my gaming group has bought. Now this doesn't bother us terribly much as we are all avid users of the books and not worried about collecting but still thought it was worth mentioning.

It's happening to my Bestiary as well, but it doesn't seem to be as bad as the Campaign setting. Maybe because it's newer. I brought it up a while back in the CS product posts, but no one ever said anything about it happening to them, so I thought maybe I just got a bad copy.

Sovereign Court

I had this issue with Second Darkness vol 2 while I was running it. I would occasionally flatten in it an attempt to leave it open on the table so I could read it without holding it up, usually because I was drawing maps on the mat or running combat. I wouldn't say I was especially hard on it - and I always break in new books before use by opening it a few pages at a time and creasing it - especially hardcovers. I have had no problems with my copies of gods and magic or rise of the runelords (which I also ran as a campaign), or the hardcovers - all of which I use extensively.

Dark Archive

Others that have shared my concern:

One

Two

Three

Four

Five

Six

My problem is I'm not really sure to whom I should voice my concerns. Customer service? Would this really give Paizo reason enough to raise a fuss to their printing company or do we amount to nothing more than drops of water in an oceanic customer base.

Paizo Employee CEO

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Gui_Shih wrote:
My problem is I'm not really sure to whom I should voice my concerns. Customer service? Would this really give Paizo reason enough to raise a fuss to their printing company or do we amount to nothing more than drops of water in an oceanic customer base.

We've seen your concerns and we are constantly working with out printers to make the best books that we can. So thanks for pointing out potential areas where problems crop up.

-Lisa

Dark Archive

Lisa Stevens wrote:


We've seen your concerns and we are constantly working with out printers to make the best books that we can. So thanks for pointing out potential areas where problems crop up.

-Lisa

LOL, I wonder if the typo was intentional... I'm now imagining someone in the office dungeons, manacled to a copy machine, sustained only by a stack of toner cartridges and Elmer's glue.

Regardless, thank you for your response. I enjoy the content you put out immensely and it means alot to me to able to use and share my books for as long as possible.

Sovereign Court

I have pretty much every Pathfinder book (still catching up on a few modules) and I've only had pages come out of PF8. But that's been re-read about 8 times by my girlfriend and she keeps on taking it around the country with her.

So, no problems so far.


Are there American companies who can do the printing, etc? Given the massive exportation of labor from the good ol' USA in recent years, I'd be happy to pay 20% more for a book written, made and sold right here.

I'm not trying to make this a political thread, but I will say that "made in America" works for me.

You would not be amiss in contracting American publishers for your awesome books. Simple nearby contractors can respond to quality concerns on a daily basis. Truckloads of crappy books are easier to recycle than boatloads.

I'm aware that American bookmakers are dying out, due to foreign competition, and that you publish in many languages, making you lean towards the best overall deal(s).

Cheaper isn't always better, even for the capitalist.

Get your eyes off the bottom line. You have a captive and growing fanbase. Making books that last is #1. You publish a lot of them, in limited runs. It ain't cheap, and we won't buy them if they're too expensive.

Paizo is known for quality. You've made the best DnD game out there today, in spades. 4e is, to me, like sex with a woman I don't even like. Others like it just fine. Good for them. I'm a PF fiend. It rocks, AFAIC.

My core rulebook is gorgeous, and is only loosening up, right now, after severe use. It's built to last.

I don't pretend to know what you have to do to stay profitable and pay everyone on time. It's not a piece of cake.

Please consider that in the current climate, Americans are your biggest base, and we're all about buying American, even if it costs more.


Out of 24 APs and pretty much the entire chronicles and companion line, I've only had pages come loose on my Gods and Magic. That's pretty darn good, imo, and considering the above posts, I'm guessing that G&M may have had a glitch with the gluing.
As for the quality of the paper and binding on Paizo's books, I think they're top notch. Mine are certainly standing up to regular use.

Paizo Employee CEO

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Benicio Del Espada wrote:
Are there American companies who can do the printing, etc? Given the massive exportation of labor from the good ol' USA in recent years, I'd be happy to pay 20% more for a book written, made and sold right here.

Believe me, we've tried. But at the BEST prices I can get in the US of A, I would have to charge THREE TIMES the price to get the same profit margin as I can get in China. As someone who has been in this business since 1987 and has printed over 100 books in the US over the years, it pains me to say that. But it is a fact. And the quality of the books made in China is equal to the book quality made in the US, so that isn't even a factor. If you were paying more for a much higher quality book, then that would be one thing, but really, the quality is similar. But the price isn't. We'll keep looking. We are actually printing Planet Stories and the upcoming Pathfinder fiction in the US because the US printer actually creamed the prices from China. Maybe somebody will do the same for full-color books someday.

-Lisa


Majuba wrote:
Shem wrote:
One day I think that pristine copies will be work something.

Considering when I was 14 I paid $55 for a non-falling apart copy of Unearthed Arcana, I think you're right :)

My books have held up well in general. Runelords and Second Darkness (which we just finished running) are in perfect shape. Gods & Magic has had a section come loose. My S/O is a little harsher on the books, and did have a section come loose from the Sixfold Trials.

Yeah, cuz my Unearthed Arcanan definitely fell apart...

My core rulebook had a messed up spine, but I'll deal with it.

Dark Archive

Hmmm... weird, my copy of 'Gods & Magic' is just fine, and it was a used copy I ordered from Amazon.

However, my 'Bestiary' and 'Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook' are suffering from the covers starting to "bend" or "warp" out of shape; I've tried stacking books on top of them to get them back into shape, but it helps only temporarily (the covers start doing it again). Now, to me it tells that the covers are made of cardboard that is too thin for the contents (this is one of the reasons why thick older books had metal clasps and ties, in addition to cornerpieces and centerpieces). It doesn't surprise me that the 'Core Rulebook' would suffer from this (it *is* that thick), but I'm amazed that it has happened with 'Bestiary' as well. I can eliminate humidity as a potential cause, as the autumn and the winter have been extremely dry and cold around here. It may also be that the glue or the carboard is inferior in quality (I've some experience in bookbinding, but I'm by no means an expert in it).

Anyway, I just want to know if anyone else has had similar problems with his/her copy of 'Bestiary'?

Sovereign Court

My Bestiary is doing great so far, no problems at all.


It's funny, shortly after reading this thread yesterday, I had a four hour session in which I used my Bestiary. When I went to open it at the beginning of the session the binding separated from the spine, only the green first and last pages are saving the cover from falling-off.

I store my bestiary in my desk, lying flat. It has left my house once in a book bag, in the dry cold Michigan winter for a ten minute drive to somewhere else and back. The thing is brand new, and treated like a baby, but who knows what conditions it has suffered before falling in my hands!

I rarely use monsters straight out of the thing, so it gets alot less flipping than my rulebook (whose only problem is easily rip-able pages).
My 3.5 monster manual looks awful, it has scratch marks, bite marks, dents, but the inside is pristine along with the binding.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pawns, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I share the concerns about the bindings on the large hardcovers, which was discussed in a similar thread a few weeks back. I'm happy to see the Paizo folks responding and asking questions in these threads.

As for the softcover books, I have not had a problem with any I've received from Paizo yet. That said, I take pretty good care of my books, and wouldn't leave a prefect bound book open flat on the table (a 32 page stapled module, sure). I'm currently running Rise of the Runelords and I've printed the PDFs of PF# 1-6 so I could put them in a binder where they can be laid flat, have notes written in them, handouts added, etc. Certainly I wouldn't want to have to print all the books I buy, but for me it is worth doing so these kind of items that that will be seeing constant use at my game table for several months each.

Liberty's Edge

Benicio Del Espada wrote:
Please consider that in the current climate, Americans are your biggest base, and we're all about buying American, even if it costs more.

I'm inclined to disagree with you on this (without trying to politicize the thread). Anybody who is feeling the economic "heat" is going to place entertainment pretty low on their list of expenditures. I know that there are other issues at play (such as China's undervalued currency and labor practices), but as Lisa pointed out 3 times the cost for the same profit margin points to a larger with the American work force and ensures that book sales would pretty much stop.

just my 2cp


I only have one book that is falling appart. That's the Glorian campaign guide that I bought in October last year. I can't blame Paizo thought. My 1 year son go a hold of the book and folded it back till the covers where touching. I have to say while the pages are loose they haven't fallen out yet. That was a lot of abuse that book took.

Sovereign Court

Neither I nor anyone I know has seen the problem with the covers of the core rulebook or the bestiary. It might be interesting to to track down where the books in question were sold - was there some humidity problem in transit, for example. Even if you've taken excellent care of it since purchase, some moisture damage suffered to the cover before purchase might explain the issue, etc. Or it could be books run during a particular portion of the manufacturing process.

I simply bought a second copy of my Second Darkness softcover. Working with computers I understand that occasional parts failure happens, and I was using the book quite heavily. :) The core rulebook would be a bit more painful a replacement purchase, though.

The Exchange

My copy of the Sixfold Trials has had about 8 pages fall out, right in the middle of the book. I used a little glue and managed to get them back in, but a few sessions later it happened again.

I'm not only using the books when I don't have a PDF available, and minimally at that. We'll see how What Lies In Dust fares.

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