I, and it sounds like other folks, would be happy to subscribe to the Pathfinder Chronicles line if only the map folios weren't mandatory parts of it.
Please consider a "Chronicles without Folios" option or splitting the two up.
I know I could cancel and restart the subscription time and time again to skip them... But that goes over my hassle threshold. (An option where you could specifically opt out of items in your subscriptions would be even better).
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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I have to agree, the maps in the pdfs are simple enough to blow up (print out, stick on cardboard, wow the players) for the nice setpiece locations. I love my Chronicle sub but I haven't even taken the map folios out of the plastic wrap. I imagine subscriptions would jump and I don't really see the point of them.
Could be isolated opinions of course, maybe someone has their den wall papered with them?
Yeah, this does keep coming up.
But then again, there's plenty of us who *do* like them, and they've said before they didn't intend to change it.
But you never know.
Yeah, this does keep coming up.
But then again, there's plenty of us who *do* like them, and they've said before they didn't intend to change it.
But you never know.
Originally, I felt the same way. but then I started running APs and found myself using the maps over and over.
Personally, I love them. I think they've made it much easier to use in the game and they are worth the cost. My printer is no where near as good as the quality of the maps. and being able to have one on hand instantly is a good bonus.
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I have to chime in here that the map folios are one of the reasons I un-subscribed to Chronicles. I can tolerate the occasional product that doesn't excite me but I have no use at all for the map packs and they wind up sitting on the shelf gathering dust. So I've decided I will just pick and choose which Chronicles products I buy which ultimately is a LOT less than if I was subscribed. :( I want to subscribe but having 1 in 4 (lately 1 in 3) products being maps which I can't use makes me a sad boy.
I'm curious what the Map Folio detractors thought of the City Map Folio.
Elucidate me, please.
I liked them a lot better than the AP folios (most of which I still have in the shrink-wrap). I would like a product maybe once a year.
For the regular map packs, I would prefer to see this as a separate product OR included in the map subscription.
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Erik,
One of the big appeals of the APs and Chronicles line is even if I never run an Adventure or use material from a Chronicle they are entertaining to read and give me idea to build on. The maps don't give me any similar side benefits. For the purpose of enjoying an AP the maps in the book are fine. Paying $15 for a handful of maps I might look at for 10 minutes just has no appeal to me.
I didn't get the city maps but I did get the Second Darkness map pack which has the poster map. If/ when I run Second Darkness that would be great but at this rate it seems unlikely I will run Second Darkness so it's pretty much a waste. IMO city maps are similar, if I happen to be running something in a particular city it's great, otherwise a waste.
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I'm curious what the Map Folio detractors thought of the City Map Folio.
Elucidate me, please.
I think they were a step in the right direction, all poster maps that is.
Adding numeric labels would be another (with corresponding separate legend *somewhere*), that way you keep them spoiler free, while retaining their utility as generic maps.
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Erik,
I didn't get the city maps but I did get the Second Darkness map pack which has the poster map. If/ when I run Second Darkness that would be great but at this rate it seems unlikely I will run Second Darkness so it's pretty much a waste. IMO city maps are similar, if I happen to be running something in a particular city it's great, otherwise a waste.
When I ran 2nd Darkness I heavily used my map folio to avoid having to look for maps in side the AP chapters, but I could've achieved the same by printing the relevant pages from the book.
See my reply to Erik above.
You don't always need a generic city map, but if you do, City Map Folio could serve just that purpose.
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Having said that, I do see the benefit of a Chronicles sub without maps, after all they are most useful to GM running a particular AP.
It feels somewhat like being force fed.
I have all map folios so far, and I have only used the SD one.
AP Agnostic map folios, yes please, keep them with chronicles.
I agree. The City Maps supplement is the only one I have even opened since the first map pack. I just print the map I want off the pdf. I'd love to see this removed from the subscription.
I'm curious what the Map Folio detractors thought of the City Map Folio.
Elucidate me, please.
Poster maps of cities = AWESOME.
I bought it as soon as it came out.
(As an aside, I bought the Second Darkness folio just because of the drow city map [the city is unplayable otherwise as the AP map is uselessly small], I bought the Legacy of Fire folio just because of the Katapesh city map, and I just pre-ordered the Council of Thieves folio just for the [new superior version of the] Westcrown city map.)
Again, I reiterate: Poster maps of cities = AWESOME. Single page maps of something we have already = suck.
Director of Brand Strategy
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I had the poster map of Varisia and Sandpoint laminated back to back and used them both a ton for my RotR game and I like having the rest of the poster maps on-hand to do the same should I ever run any of the other paths. If I had more money and storage space (working on both), I'd just get all of them laminated and save them for later so they remain in as good of condition as possible. I find that I am less likely to carry a poster map around, even if it's one I would use, if it's loose because I don't want it to tear or get wet/ruined.
I also print a lot of the maps at different scales from the map folio pdfs and would hate to see those go away by having the products removed from subscriptions, since I don't think I'd pay extra to get the pdf if it weren't free with the print product.
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I'm curious what the Map Folio detractors thought of the City Map Folio.
Elucidate me, please.
As a mild detractor of the Map Folios (or is it Folia?), I was much happier with the City Maps. I believe I will see much more utility from them, but they need a legend and labels of some sort. I like my maps to be pretty, which these are, but I also want them to be helpful for actual game sessions and a scale is a definite must for that.
As for the AP maps themselves I find no use for the reprinted "dungeon" maps but I love the four panel city and region maps, especially if they have a legend, scale and labels.
I think maps should be seperate, even though I'd get both. Maps don't feel like they belong in the same subscription with the Chronicle books.
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I think maps should be seperate, even though I'd get both. Maps don't feel like they belong in the same subscription with the Chronicle books.
Apparently I didn’t put enough thought into my post, I agree that the Map Folio don't really fit in the Chronicles, after all they are specifically for the APs.
I'm curious what the Map Folio detractors thought of the City Map Folio.
Elucidate me, please.
It was a definite improvement from AP-Folios.
it would have been even better if it had included something similar to the old D&D and AD&D Trail Maps: much of the maps themselves were reprints (though in bigger size and better paper, sure), but they used the margins to include quite a few tidbits of info not present in the original products (that would be, in this case, Cities of Golarion). Things like specialist shops, names of famous taverns, tables of local taxes...I guess that's hard to do with AP folios, but probably it could be done with a bit of imagination:
mosts APs involve some city, town, or regional area. Those maps could include margin data on random encounters, typical herbs, names and locations for sample businesses, etc.
That info probably would be small enough to avoid lagging production (or increasing costs). I imagine you guys have that kind of materials which don't make their way into APs for space reasons...
Otherwise, I might suggest that subscribers of both APs and Chronicles could get the option of buying AP Folios in electronic format only (at the lower price) if the Folio files included larger scale maps in ready-to use image format. After running a few AP modules under virtual tabletops, I find both the original pdf AP maps and the ones in the matching folios too small to expand into an adequate virtual tabletop and still look nice (as in non-blurry).
Being subscribed to both lines, I'd find more benefits in a virtual tabletop-ready (or even printable into battlemap size) Folio than a single sheet hardcopy of maps I already own.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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I think maps should be seperate, even though I'd get both. Maps don't feel like they belong in the same subscription with the Chronicle books.Apparently I didn’t put enough thought into my post, I agree that the Map Folio don't really fit in the Chronicles, after all they are specifically for the APs.
What about map folios that aren't tied to an AP? Cities Map Folio, Inner Sea Map Folio, and a possible Lost Cities Map Folio, for example? These are directly tied to books in the Chronicles line, as opposed to an AP. Should these also not be part of the subscription line to which they're directly related?
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I have to agree I usally don't even open the Map Packs. The city pack was nice to see but again right now I have no use for it.
The fact that they come out after the AP is complete means thay are not very useful to people running the AP as it come out,
If I run an AP after it is completed I would then consider buying the map pack.
In short I feel it should not be part of a Pathfinder AP subscription.
Count me as another person who would happily subscribe to the chronicles line, if there were a way to opt out of the map packages.
That's not to say that there's anything wrong with the maps, but the maps are very likely to be dust collector on my shelf.
That being said, I am looking forward to the map set for the inner sea region that is due out after the revised campaign setting.
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What about map folios that aren't tied to an AP? Cities Map Folio, Inner Sea Map Folio, and a possible Lost Cities Map Folio, for example? These are directly tied to books in the Chronicles line, as opposed to an AP. Should these also not be part of the subscription line to which they're directly related?
Unless I am actually running something in a particular area they gather dust. I can spend 2-5 hours or more reading and rereading a Chronicles book or AP I might not use; there is no similar entertainment value from a map. For me that's the big difference.
I think you do so much PFS GMing that you flit about Golarian all the time and can use a lot of this stuff. For those of us running a home game that just doesn't happen.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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I think you do so much PFS GMing that you flit about Golarian all the time and can use a lot of this stuff. For those of us running a home game that just doesn't happen.
That's a fair assessment. I fear, however, that for those of us who do find them useful, removing them from a subscription will result in their discontinuation altogether. I obviously don't know all the number crunching Lisa and Erik do when planning products, but my impression is that they can justify keeping prices as low as possible and producing more products because of the built-in subscription income each will generate. If they didn't have Chronicles (or whatever) subscription numbers to base print runs on, and weren't sure they'd recoup the cost of producing a map folio, I assume they'd stop making them. And for those of us who use them, that would be a real shame.
It's a tough spot to balance between wanting the products to keep coming out and not wanting to force people who would never use them from getting them.
I'm curious what the Map Folio detractors thought of the City Map Folio.
Elucidate me, please.
I didn't get it because I don't usually want map folios. Now, I will say that of the map folios, the City one is the one that tempts me.
I like getting all the APs. I don't run all the APs, sometimes one of the other (multiple) subscribers in my gaming group does. I don't even play in all of them due to time constraints.
I can always read "Andoren, Spirit of Colbertism" or whatever for kicks/inspiration/etc. I don't get similar bennies out of maps.
I don't begrudge map folios their existence, or people that like maps their folios - but it's the single showstopper preventing me from subbing to the Chronicles subscription. "Wasting" $30+/year on stuff I don't want is a non starter.
They're like the cards. Yay cards - and make them a separate line.
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I'm curious what the Map Folio detractors thought of the City Map Folio.
Elucidate me, please.
Hi Erik,
I used to buy the Chronicles line one at a time from my FLGS. I decided to subscribe to get the convenience of it delivered to my door and the free pdf. At the time I had completely forgotten about the maps. I kind of shrugged, figured two products a year that I wouldn't use was OK if it meant I got all the others that I DID want. When I heard about the City Map Folio I groaned out loud; a third product that I didn't want. I meant to suspend the subscription to avoid it, but completely forgot (again).
The maps are very pretty. I usually open them and leaf through once...And that's it. With the CIty Map Folio I only opened one of the posters right out and couldn't really be bothered with the others. They were all there, and that's kind of what mattered. They now sit in amongst my other Chronicles/AP books and I don't think I'll ever use them. I'd really appreciate being able to opt out of all map products. I loved the CIties of Golarion book, and I bet I'll love the Lost Cities of Golarion too, I just hope I remember to suspend in time to avoid a map folio for it (and I'm sure that doing things like this isn't why you've provided the helpful suspend option.).
Best wishes,
U
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Chief Technical Officer
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We have been listening to your requests for more useful maps—and, especially, fewer reprinted encounter maps—in the folios. The recent City Map Folio is an experiment in that direction, with six new poster maps of Cassomir, Corentyn, Ilizmagorti, Nisroch, Vigil, and Whitethrone.
The Council of Thieves Map Folio is the last map folio that'll feature reprints of encounter maps for the foreseeable future—and even it contains an all-new poster map of Westcrown.
The next folio after that, the Kingmaker Poster Map Folio, has four poster maps of the Stolen Lands, plus poster maps of Pitax and Varnhold.
And the folio after that is the Inner Sea Poster Map Folio, which contains four 8-panel poster maps that combine to form a truly enormous 32-panel mega-map of the Inner Sea region, in more detail than ever seen before. That one, folks, is pure core campaign setting material by just about any measurement.
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Chief Technical Officer
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... That one, folks, is pure core campaign setting material by just about any measurement.Hmm.. the product description said it would incorporate locations from APs and modules, I might be misunderstanding but are you saying it will only include locations from the PFCS Inner sea?
James Jacobs can correct me if I'm off, but my understanding is that it will cover much the same area as the map in the current Campaign Setting book, but in far greater detail.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Hmm.. the product description said it would incorporate locations from APs and modules, I might be misunderstanding but are you saying it will only include locations from the PFCS Inner sea?
So far, virtually every location from every module and adventure path takes place somewhere within the previously mapped region.
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Creative Director
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James Jacobs can correct me if I'm off, but my understanding is that it will cover much the same area as the map in the current Campaign Setting book, but in far greater detail.... That one, folks, is pure core campaign setting material by just about any measurement.Hmm.. the product description said it would incorporate locations from APs and modules, I might be misunderstanding but are you saying it will only include locations from the PFCS Inner sea?
Yup; Vic's right.
What the product description means by "incorporating locations from APs and modules" is that the giant map of the Inner Sea region would include tags on the map that place locations that are featured in APs and modules. So you'd be seeing location tags for sites like Xin-Shalast, Sandpoint, Castle Scarwall, Kelmarane, Devil's Elbow, Smuggler's Shiv, all of the Hellknight citadels, and so on.
The map folio won't reprint actual MAPS from those adventures at all. But it'll include every location mentioned in APs or modules on the map, so if you pick up a copy of, say, Crypt of the Everflame, you'll be able to see the village of Kassen on this map. Or if you picked up a copy of Pathfinder #17, which has a big gazetteer of Kyonin, all of the locations in Kyonin would be noted on the map.
I really like the maps and I like the new direction of having more poster maps. But even so they do feel out of place in the Chronicles line. If they were migrated to their own line, or part of the Game Mastery Maps line that would make sense to me.
Either way I'm getting them.
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I think you do so much PFS GMing that you flit about Golarian all the time and can use a lot of this stuff. For those of us running a home game that just doesn't happen.That's a fair assessment. I fear, however, that for those of us who do find them useful, removing them from a subscription will result in their discontinuation altogether. I obviously don't know all the number crunching Lisa and Erik do when planning products, but my impression is that they can justify keeping prices as low as possible and producing more products because of the built-in subscription income each will generate. If they didn't have Chronicles (or whatever) subscription numbers to base print runs on, and weren't sure they'd recoup the cost of producing a map folio, I assume they'd stop making them. And for those of us who use them, that would be a real shame.
It's a tough spot to balance between wanting the products to keep coming out and not wanting to force people who would never use them from getting them.
*shrug* The Chronicles line is a borderline product for me regardless, I only really dig about 2/3 of the Chronicles books but I'm cool with subscribing for that content. Add in the map packs and the value just isn't there for me. I'm not super thrilled about the idea of subsidizing the parts of a product I don't really use so other people can enjoy them. So in the end purchasing the books piece meal makes a bit more sense. Sadly I lose access to the PDFs which makes the individual books less valuable to me also so I buy even fewer books... so I am a sad puppy.
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What about map folios that aren't tied to an AP? Cities Map Folio, Inner Sea Map Folio, and a possible Lost Cities Map Folio, for example? These are directly tied to books in the Chronicles line, as opposed to an AP. Should these also not be part of the subscription line to which they're directly related?I think maps should be seperate, even though I'd get both. Maps don't feel like they belong in the same subscription with the Chronicle books.Apparently I didn’t put enough thought into my post, I agree that the Map Folio don't really fit in the Chronicles, after all they are specifically for the APs.
This is what I get for not posting enough to understand how to be clear with my writing.
I meant to be speaking only about the Map Folios that are tied to the AP. I like the idea behind the Inner Sea Map Folio and the Lost Cities Map Folio so long as they have legends and labels. The lack of legends and labels is the only criticism I have for the City Map Folio.
Vic's Post about the up coming Kingmaker Map Folio is more of what I want, and it does sound like it will have more non-AP value since the maps will be of the region and two cities there instead of specific encouter location..
Please give me legends and labels on any map.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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...that combine to form a truly enormous 32-panel mega-map...
Ahhh, that brings me back! In my mind's eye I'm admiring the map from the 2e Waterdeep Boxed Set!
While I don't imagine ever using the map folios from the APs, big fold-out maps of countries and cities are nice to unfold and useful in game. The fold-out map of Sasserine saw a lot of use in my STAP game, as did that of the Isle of Dread. I can imagine using a huge map of, say, Sandpoint too.
At the minute, like Ukos, the folios are little more to me than a mild pdf-tax. With future products cutting back on reproducing maps from the AP I can look forward to getting full use out of my Chronicles subscription. Sweet! Thank you!
Please give me legends and labels on any map.
Ironically, I like the fact that there's few legends. I thought the City Map Folio was great ... and all of those cities now have new names in my campaign world.
The more crunch on them, the harder it is for me to do that :)
You don't always need a generic city map, but if you do, City Map Folio could serve just that purpose.
I run my campaigns in my own homebrew so the map folio as generic cities was of interest to me. It's actually the rest of the Chronicles stuff that holds little interest to me.
Personally, I'd rather see map folios get merged with the map subscription. I was kind of disappointed when I realized the map subscription include the game mastery tiles instead of just the flip mats. For me at least, the map folios and flip mats would be a more attractive deal than the gamemastery tiles and flip mats.
As it stands right now, I'm reconsidering if either of these subscriptions are worth continuing since I'm paying for stuff I don't want/need with both.
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Great the postmonster ate my post.
As a subscriber I need to add my two cents to this. I love Paizo products, I buy them because they are high quality and interesting. I utterly hate the fact that I'm subscribed to something that has a product that I consider sub-par by the high standards set out by Paizo. In all the map packs I have ever received one has been opened, and that was the first map pack to see what I had received). It's even kept me from opening the cities map pack because I hate the products so much I didn't even care to look and see what was inside (and now that I've heard what's inside I'm not sure I'm interested).
I see four major problems with the product line:
1) Map packs arrive after the adventure path is done shipping. At this point if we've decided to run an adventure path we're already started and in most cases at least half way through. That makes the product already 50% less valuable simply because we're past the need for a lot of it. This brings me into #2.
2) The AP map packs are simply copies of the maps in the adventure paths. Because I am subscribed to the Adventure Paths I get free PDFs, which...means I get free maps! Sure they're not on pretty glossy paper, but frankly it means I'm paying for a product I've already bought. This does not make me happy.
3) If you're an AP subscriber you have no need for the maps (since they're already in your PDfs), if you're not an AP subscriber the maps have no use because they don't apply. In all of the products in that line, it's the only one that is very much specifically tied to another product. Sure one might be able to make their own dungeon from the maps, but the prices associated with the product just don't make it worth it.
4) Other than the small one page maps, I just don't like the need to fold out a huge map at the game table. I know a lot of people love these huge poster maps, but as a personal taste, I do not. Other than the huge (and admittedly pretty cool) Ptolus poster map we had, the road layout of cities just hasn't been significant enough to worry about a monster map. This means that the new direction of the map packs is limited for me as well. I like them about 10x better than I like the AP map packs (for the three reasons noted above), but I still don't find them worth the price of printing.
I consider my map packs the "tax" on the cool subscription benefits I get (PDFs and the 15% discount). For now this means I've suck with them, but I'm getting closer and closer to just dumping that particular subscription because I find the product no worthless. Without mincing words, I love Paizo products, I find the map packs a waste of the paper they're printed on.
Please give me legends and labels on any map.Ironically, I like the fact that there's few legends. I thought the City Map Folio was great ... and all of those cities now have new names in my campaign world.
The more crunch on them, the harder it is for me to do that :)
I feel the same way as gbonehead. I'd prefer for the actual printed maps to remain free of labels (including the city names if at all possible). With that said, it might be cool for those who actually do play in Golarion if the PDF version contains both the labeled and unlabeled versions of the maps. Although I'd recommend keeping the labeled version in both DM and player friendly formats...
EDIT: If you do decide to put crunch on the poster maps, please leave it to just numbered keys, and include a separate sheet with the actual legends printed on them. That was a DM can opt to leave out the legend if they so choose.
To me, the map packs are cool, but not very useful for what i think they are intended for. I'm assuming they are supposed to be used for players to see and interact with. However, secret doors are included on the maps. That makes them sorta useless. I don't understand why player unsafe material is included. I do realize that extra cost/effort would go into altering the maps, but it's not like these things are free, we pay $15 for them.
Maybe I'm wrong about the intention of how they are to be used?
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To me, the map packs are cool, but not very useful for what i think they are intended for. I'm assuming they are supposed to be used for players to see and interact with. However, secret doors are included on the maps. That makes them sorta useless. I don't understand why player unsafe material is included. I do realize that extra cost/effort would go into altering the maps, but it's not like these things are free, we pay $15 for them.
Maybe I'm wrong about the intention of how they are to be used?
My suggestion: For the PDFs, Paizo should use the layer function. This could allow you to toggle between a GM map and a Player-Safe map. The same technology could be used for the poster maps to include legend information or not.
As for the print product, I don't really have any ideas. I'd almost say the best thing might to be to limit it to the poster maps or map folios that aren't directly related to AP/modules to avoid reprints. Maybe you might even consider making the map folios PDF-only products, akin to the Pathfinder Society Scenarios. Like I said earlier, the functionality can be improved with the layers function, perhaps even further than just the GM / Player map versions. Take a look at 0one's PDF map products. They make extensive use of the layers. Some of their maps even include encounters descriptions that scale to different Challenge Ratings using the layers.
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CEO
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I see four major problems with the product line:
1) Map packs arrive after the adventure path is done shipping. At this point if we've decided to run an adventure path we're already started and in most cases at least half way through. That makes the product already 50% less valuable simply because we're past the need for a lot of it. This brings me into #2.
2) The AP map packs are simply copies of the maps in the adventure paths. Because I am subscribed to the Adventure Paths I get free PDFs, which...means I get free maps! Sure they're not on pretty glossy paper, but frankly it means I'm paying for a product I've already bought. This does not make me happy.
Just in case it hasn't been made clear, we have heard the complaints like those MisterSlanky listed above and we have made changes to the map folios starting after the Council of Thieves one that comes out soon (and even that one has a brand new poster map of Westcrown). We won't just be printing single page reprints of maps from the AP (though I personally love those and use them in my game all the time), but instead, we will be creating larger, poster-sized maps that augment games better.
We've heard your complaints about what was in the Map Folios and are making changes. I'll be curious to see what people think at the end of 2010. Now, if you just don't like maps, I can't help you. :)
-Lisa
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We've heard your complaints about what was in the Map Folios and are making changes. I'll be curious to see what people think at the end of 2010. Now, if you just don't like maps, I can't help you. :)
-Lisa
Thanks Lisa!
I promise to give the updates at least a look. Without this note I never would have opened the packages, so I do appreciate the head's up.
This is why I like Paizo so much, you guys actually hear us and when appropriate, act on it.
P.S. - I still think they should be in the map subscription. ;-)
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Director of Brand Strategy
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P.S. - I still think they should be in the map subscription. ;-)
But doing so forces those of us who want canon material to subscribe to something we would prefer not to and may make people who only want the completely generic map packs and flip mats cancel those subscriptions. I think the problem is that the Map Folio products straddle the line of what makes the two product lines unique, and no matter how they're moved around, someone will be dissatisfied.
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I bet Paizo sells more map folios through the Chronicles line than out it, and that's why they put it there. Moving it out of the Chronicles line would mean smaller print runs and higher prices, which would translate into even smaller sales, and eventually no maps for the people.
I love flip maps, and I have about 1/3 of them, but still don't feel the need to pick them all, or the map packs, so moving the map folios to that line would be of no help to me.
IMHO the changes to the map folios have been good, and I hope they keep improving.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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As a frequent b$#@%er about the map packs, I'm glad to hear about the format change. I'll take a look and see what I think. I'm not sure that I would purchase them outside of the subscription, but I am much happier that they are not going to be just reprints of maps from the APs.
...the giant map of the Inner Sea region would include tags on the map that place locations that are featured in APs and modules. So you'd be seeing location tags for sites like Xin-Shalast...
It'll be worth the price just to run Rise of the Runelords and, when the PCs are trying to uncover where the Runelord's hidden city is, have the players just stand up and point to it on the poster map.