All Teachers Fired At Rhode Island School
Fire all the teachers and then hire half of them back? Srsly? And that is going to fix things? As I understand it, the teachers agreed to all of the transformation requirements, they just wanted to be paid for their extra work. I guess you are too scared to put your money where your mouth is.
Typical.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32
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Speaking as a former high school teacher I can tell you that the firings were necessary. The Unions have way too tight a death-grip on our public schools (much like our auto manufacturers). The unions were offered that teachers be paid $60 (!) an hour for the extra work they would be required to do (behavioral health professionals get paid about the same). But no. They wanted to be paid $90! They wouldn't take no for an answer ... and so instead they all got fired. The Union blew it. They pushed too far and lost. They deserved to.
50% of high school students were failing to graduate and less than 8% could even pass the basic math requirements. Results matter! I'm sick of what has happened to our educational system because of the wasteful tactics of teachers unions. They only exist to perpetuate their cushy jobs and they do nothing to improve quality. On the contrary, they bring down quality and increase costs!
In these terribly hard economic times those who get good results should get the jobs, those who don't should have to wait in line.
School choice is the only way. Give vouchers to families who then choose for themselves what schools - be they public or private - will be the ones they will send their children to.
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All Teachers Fired At Rhode Island School
Fire all the teachers and then hire half of them back? Srsly? And that is going to fix things? As I understand it, the teachers agreed to all of the transformation requirements, they just wanted to be paid for their extra work. I guess you are too scared to put your money where your mouth is.Typical.
"The firings will continue until morale improves."
I have to say I have mixed feelings about this. I know some teachers that teach high school, and the problem is that up until eighth grade or so, the kids just keep getting passed along because many of the parents don't want their children left behind from friends. By the time they hit high school, their years behind and either begin to give up or really have to struggle to catch up.
I won't begrudge the teachers their salary, but it's more than a lot of RNs I know and a bit high in my opinion, but asking to work more hours for the same pay essential means a pay cut. This seems like typical tactics versus pay cut resistances. The pay is only worth dishing out if they are getting results. This is the reason higher positions in a company get paid big bucks, results are expected.
I hate to say it like this, but it sounds like the one firing them is looking to seem politically forward and making a good face. If they really wanted to change things, starting of being really tough at the lower levels and maintaining that as the students ascended would solve this IMHO. It's harder to fix a bad habit then avoiding it in the first place.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32
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I have to say I have mixed feelings about this. I know some teachers that teach high school, and the problem is that up until eighth grade or so, the kids just keep getting passed along because many of the parents don't want their children left behind from friends. By the time they hit high school, their years behind and either begin to give up or really have to struggle to catch up.
I won't begrudge the teachers their salary, but it's more than a lot of RNs I know and a bit high in my opinion, but asking to work more hours for the same pay essential means a pay cut. This seems like typical tactics versus pay cut resistances.
I hate to say it like this, but it sounds like the one firing them is looking to seem politically forward and making a good face. If they really wanted to change things, starting of being really tough at the lower levels and maintaining that as the students ascended would solve this IMHO. It's harder to fix a bad habit then avoiding it in the first place.
Regarding pay, keep in mind that teachers are paid for 10 months of work a year. They have essentially no income for two months in the Summer. All the teachers I've known (except for a few nice ladies who were basically the 2nd income for their families) fought hard to the few summer school jobs there were or else got summer jobs to make up the difference. These extra hours are just what a teacher needs to increase his yearly income.
As to this official who ordered the firings, yes it's a political position he has. But unlike the corrupt NEA he is accountable to the people of the community who elected him. The schools were so lousy, he had to do something and when the Unions gave him the option of firing them or breaking the bank paying demonstrably terrible teachers $90 an hour for extra work - he chose to fire them and start over.
Salary is Salary, you shouldn't get paid extra for extra hours. That's what salary means...
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I'm not going to defend the asking for $90 dollars, but I am a teacher in RI and we have been following this very closely. Also, I was at the rally last night. First, the teachers weren't offered $60 per hour for extra work, they were offered $30 (which I would say is a fair wage) for only some the extra work. But, that money wasn't secured so it was only a big maybe we will pay you.
Another thing, Gallo laid out what she was going to do as an ultimatum, not as an offer. There was no negotiation. This is what the unions are fighting for here, the right to negotiate a fair compensation for extra work. The teachers already spend the extra time with the students, but mandating the extra work would put an extra burden on them, and that needed to be discussed.
Also, none of the fired teachers had received a bad review or given any warning to improve on their performance. If they had been reviewed as lacking, they could have taken the steps necessary to improve. As it is, this can be compared to me giving a student B's all semester, only to fail them in the end because I told them they actually weren't doing as well as they thought.
That school did improve on the test scores in question, but if you knew anything about the NECAP test that they are referring to, you would know that the students are not held accountable for the test results. It has nothing to do with their grades, graduation, or for getting into college if they even had the aspirations. Basically, the students see the tests as a big BS week. Some might put in an effort, but most, including honors students, will instead draw decorations into the multiple choice boxes and not bother with any questions where they might have to write more than a couple words.
The district has the staff in place, and they are dedicated to their jobs and to the students. They are willing to do the extra training and the extra work, but they need to be included in the process, not told "My way of the highway!"
Speaking as a former high school teacher I can tell you that the firings were necessary. The Unions have way too tight a death-grip on our public schools (much like our auto manufacturers). The unions were offered that teachers be paid $60 (!) an hour for the extra work they would be required to do (behavioral health professionals get paid about the same). But no. They wanted to be paid $90! They wouldn't take no for an answer ... and so instead they all got fired. The Union blew it. They pushed too far and lost. They deserved to.
50% of high school students were failing to graduate and less than 8% could even pass the basic math requirements. Results matter! I'm sick of what has happened to our educational system because of the wasteful tactics of teachers unions. They only exist to perpetuate their cushy jobs and they do nothing to improve quality. On the contrary, they bring down quality and increase costs!
In these terribly hard economic times those who get good results should get the jobs, those who don't should have to wait in line.
School choice is the only way. Give vouchers to families who then choose for themselves what schools - be they public or private - will be the ones they will send their children to.
Don't forget that how well the students do doesn't rest solely on the teachers shoulders. Yes, a good teacher will get better grades out of their students than a bad one, but students that don't care about passing wont pass regardless.
FWIW, I was refering to the yearly salary amount in the $70K range. This is significantly higher than the amount of any high school teacher I know, even one with a PhD. I would say this is the cost of the area, but they said on the report the average salary in the area is in the $20K range. I just wanted to clarify that. It still seemed like political manuevers and positioning to me.
Really, the average salary of the area doesn't play a big role in the salary of the teachers.
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Cost of living is high in RI, therefore the salaries need to be high enough so we can actually afford a house. Central Falls is basically a square mile of poverty that none of the surrounding cities want anything to do with. Crime is very high, and IIRC, it is also has one of the highest population densities in the country. The teachers likely don't live there. No one who chooses to really does.
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Kathy May, a teacher at Central Falls High, said she's disheartened. "I feel like, after 20 years, I can see some progress beginning to be made."If it took 20 years to finally start making progress, firing is probably the right choice.
I disagree. Assuming that a school can solve the problems of a community puts too much faith in the value of the school system. Raise the standard of living in the community, reduce the crime right, increase the quality of life, encourage parents to play and read more with their children, then, if the school is still failing, fire the teachers.
(Standard Disclaimer: I'm too lazy to find out anything about the quality of life in this community and am probably just full of BS.)
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I appreciate all these comments. Especially Senmont's.
In all, this district sounds like an awful place to teach and an awful place to learn.
VOUCHERS! Let the FAMILIES decide where to send their children to school! Anything else - because of the cost - is no choice at all.
p.s. My wife and I homeschool our three children. They get a better education than they would if they wasted their time in the rotten public schools we now have in California. But we still have to pay taxes to support the public schools and can't deduct the money we spend teaching our own children even though we don't use the system. That's the NEA and the other teacher's unions for ya. They control our state government like pimps. It's like living in Cheliax.
Unions gave him the option of firing them or breaking the bank paying demonstrably terrible teachers $90 an hour for extra work - he chose to fire them and start over.
Sorry, not buying it. If all the teachers are so god awful, why are they even considering hiring half of them back? It sounds like they are just trying to end around the union. Considering I do not know any teachers living the high life, I am more sympathetic to them.
It seems this country's fix for anything is to fire someone. Didn't make a profit in the fourth quarter? Lay off 10% of your workers - not managers - just the people actually doing the work. Didn't win the Superbowl this year? Fire your head coach. Complex socio-economic problems affecting performance at your school? Fire all the teachers regardless of the teacher's actual performance.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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James,
When I was a freshman at Chaminade College Peparatory for Young Men (yep, that was the school's name), there was a movement sponsored by some of the parents and teachers to get a tax break for families that had won places for their children in public schools --or homeschooled their kids-- using that same argument, that they were removing their children from the system.
My counter-argument then, as a 14-year-old, was "Then why should single people pay for schools? Or married people without children? Or people whose children have already grown out of school age?" It was an unsophisticated position, but nobody's been able to shake me from it.
We pay for public education, not because our own children benefit, any more than our support of fire departments comes from their dousing the flames at our own house. We pay for public education because we are a healthier culture and a stronger democracy with a well-educated populace.
And, for the record, I was a math teacher (high school or junior high) from 1998 to 2008. There was never a week during the school year where I was putting in fewer than 60 hours, between classroom instruction, lesson preparation, professional development, tutoring, and grading. With a master's degree in the subject area, I never made more than $31,000.
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I've always been of the opinion that unions cause more problems for employees than they solve. The older I get and more I see/hear/learn, the stronger my beliefs become.
And the more happy I am that I chose a profession where my salary and benefits aren't dictated to me by a 3rd entity, but instead are a reflection of how my skills, knowledge, and capabilities are valued by a free market where I can choose to work for the guy that I feel makes the best deal for me instead of some one-size-fits-all straitjacket.
-Skeld
And the more happy I am that I chose a profession where my salary and benefits aren't dictated to me by a 3rd entity, but instead are a reflection of how my skills, knowledge, and capabilities are valued by a free market where I can choose to work for the guy that I feel makes the best deal for me instead of some one-size-fits-all straitjacket.
-Skeld
So, how's the international assassin business these days? ;-)
I disagree. Assuming that a school can solve the problems of a community puts too much faith in the value of the school system. Raise the standard of living in the community, reduce the crime right, increase the quality of life, encourage parents to play and read more with their children, then, if the school is still failing, fire the teachers.
(Standard Disclaimer: I'm too lazy to find out anything about the quality of life in this community and am probably just full of BS.)
Exactly. Expecting our school systems to save a failing society/culture is just wishful thinking. It's like sending a mouse against an Apatasaurus.
Exactly. Expecting our school systems to save a failing society/culture is just wishful thinking. It's like sending a mouse against an Apatasaurus.I disagree. Assuming that a school can solve the problems of a community puts too much faith in the value of the school system. Raise the standard of living in the community, reduce the crime right, increase the quality of life, encourage parents to play and read more with their children, then, if the school is still failing, fire the teachers.
(Standard Disclaimer: I'm too lazy to find out anything about the quality of life in this community and am probably just full of BS.)
Go for the eyes! Go for the EYES!!!
Is it a chocolate mousse?
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We pay for public education, not because our own children benefit, any more than our support of fire departments comes from their dousing the flames at our own house. We pay for public education because we are a healthier culture and a stronger democracy with a well-educated populace.
Considering our last three presidential elections and a host of other issues in my lifetime,"well educated" isn't the adjective I'd use to describe the American people.
I want my money back!
Considering our last three presidential elections and a host of other issues in my lifetime,"well educated" isn't the adjective I'd use to describe the American people.
Abundance of knowledge does not teach men to be wise. --Heraclitus
Just look at Sebastian.
I will say this, unions are pretty necessary in the construction business. Without unions most companies I know would hire all their employees from in front of a home depot, and pay them accordingly. There would be no standard of workmanship, and in the end the industry would suffer.
Other unions are far less necessary, grocery workers union I’m looking at you. If I didn’t need a union to protect my rights working at circuit city in high school, the 16 year old kid bagging my groceries sure as hell doesn’t.
As for teachers though, I do think they need something to protect their rights. Frankly I can’t wrap my head around the mentality to even become a teacher. You go to school for 4-8 years to earn a position earning far less than your level of education warrants. You not only have to deal with your actual boss like a normal job, but the 250 plus parents a year who consider themselves your boss because they happen to have paid their taxes this year. And lets not forget the job itself, trying to teach 125 + disrespectful punks a year a subject they have no interest in learning, who don’t respect your authority, whom you can’t discipline, but are expected to make brilliant or you are blamed for their failure.
Teachers, in my mind, are either saints or masochists.
…whom you can’t discipline, but are expected to make brilliant or you are blamed for their failure.
And god help you if you should try to tell the parents that little Timmy is not a perfect little angel.
James,
When I was a freshman at Chaminade College Peparatory for Young Men (yep, that was the school's name), there was a movement sponsored by some of the parents and teachers to get a tax break for families that had won places for their children in public schools --or homeschooled their kids-- using that same argument, that they were removing their children from the system.
My counter-argument then, as a 14-year-old, was "Then why should single people pay for schools? Or married people without children? Or people whose children have already grown out of school age?" It was an unsophisticated position, but nobody's been able to shake me from it.
We pay for public education, not because our own children benefit, any more than our support of fire departments comes from their dousing the flames at our own house. We pay for public education because we are a healthier culture and a stronger democracy with a well-educated populace.
And, for the record, I was a math teacher (high school or junior high) from 1998 to 2008. There was never a week during the school year where I was putting in fewer than 60 hours, between classroom instruction, lesson preparation, professional development, tutoring, and grading. With a master's degree in the subject area, I never made more than $31,000.
+1
And I can vouch for the amount of work teachers put in. My parents are teachers (dad teaches english, mom teaches math) and my mom is almost never not working. It's worse now because class sizes shot up in the last few years so that she barely has time to do anything but work.
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I've always been of the opinion that unions cause more problems for employees than they solve. The older I get and more I see/hear/learn, the stronger my beliefs become.
As a teacher in the UK the main advantages I see to being a union member are that I will have someone batting in my corner legally if a student attempts to get me fired and that they can voice teachers concern to government about issues such as too much cover or massive class sizes.
…whom you can’t discipline, but are expected to make brilliant or you are blamed for their failure.And god help you if you should try to tell the parents that little Timmy is not a perfect little angel.
I’m grateful my parents always had the common decency to blame me for the mistakes I’ve made. Yay accountability!
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As a teacher in the UK the main advantages I see to being a union member are that I will have someone batting in my corner legally if a student attempts to get me fired and that they can voice teachers concern to government about issues such as too much cover or massive class sizes.
Same here in the US for the most part. My wife was a teacher (special ed, K, & 5th grade) before she became at stay-at-home mom. As far as we could tell, the promise of legal services was the only reason for her to be in the teachers' union.
The fact that the teachers' union used the dues she paid to support political candidates and causes that she (as an individual) wouldn't support vexed her quite a bit.
-Skeld
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I appreciate all these comments. Especially Senmont's.
In all, this district sounds like an awful place to teach and an awful place to learn.
VOUCHERS! Let the FAMILIES decide where to send their children to school! Anything else - because of the cost - is no choice at all.p.s. My wife and I homeschool our three children. They get a better education than they would if they wasted their time in the rotten public schools we now have in California. But we still have to pay taxes to support the public schools and can't deduct the money we spend teaching our own children even though we don't use the system. That's the NEA and the other teacher's unions for ya. They control our state government like pimps. It's like living in Cheliax.
So sorry that you have to pay taxes and you CHOOSE not to avail yourself of the services they pay for. I always get incensed by this short sighted viewpoint.
What about people without children? Why do they pay taxes? Can't they send their money where they want with vouchers?
How about a pacifist? They don't support military action. Why can't they have their taxes applied to arts programs instead. Should it change things if they are a Quaker? That's a religious ban on violence. If their money is spent on the military, aren't you misusing their contribution?
The answer to all of these is no. It is your civic duty to pay taxes. Just because your political beliefs tell you that the school system is wicked and in need of smiting (because, its obvious you feel that way by your posts) doesn't mean you can pull your money out of the system. you have the OPTION to pay EXTRA to send your children elsewhere. You don't even want to do that! You want to keep the money because " your homeschooling is better than California's crappy education system". Are you certified in math, the sciences, english and history? If not, how can you possibly claim that the teaching of one generalist is superior to a battery of specialists?
I'm sorry, but these attitudes just make me mad. I'm sorry for whatever profound hurt our public school did you in the past. You do have the right to homeschool your children. Just pay your taxes like every other citizen and we have no issue. It is your civic duty.
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I'm also going to make a plug for Unions here. Without the Actors Equity Association, it would be almost impossible for actors to get even close to fairly compensated for their work considering the competition in the system. Without Equity, it is nigh impossible to even survive as an actor. Because Equity mandates certain conditions including pay, hours, etc. and because these benefits also apply for non-union actors working in equity theatres, everyone in the system benefits. Unions are necessary, and while they're imperfect like every institution, nine times out of ten I would take them over a non-unionized system.
As for school vouchers, HELL NO. Vouchers has to be the worst idea for education possible. Our education system does not need to be sucked dry any more. Vouchers only benefit the rich by making it even easier for them to pull their children out of the real world and put them in a private-school bubble. I should know, I went to private school my whole life. What's really needed, at least in my state, is an elimination of tax breaks for more children. Here in Utah, families with 8 children in public school pay less for public school than my family did, with one child in private school.
Public school can work, and does work, it just needs commitment from the community, and MONEY. Taxes aren't the enemy. I'm proud to pay my taxes to the USA in order to support our society and help the entire community. Well-funded public schools work well in other countries, so I don't see why we can't make them work here.
I've always been of the opinion that unions cause more problems for employees than they solve. The older I get and more I see/hear/learn, the stronger my beliefs become.As a teacher in the UK the main advantages I see to being a union member are that I will have someone batting in my corner legally if a student attempts to get me fired and that they can voice teachers concern to government about issues such as too much cover or massive class sizes.
And that's very useful, especially if you're a guy, because students can get you fired with baseless claims that can't possibly be proven.
What about people without children? Why do they pay taxes?
Because everyone benefits from a well-education population, whether single, married, childless, or childful. The difference is that folks without children are paying for the benefit without actually having to do any of the hard work of raising children.
...What's really needed, at least in my state, is an elimination of tax breaks for more children. Here in Utah, families with 8 children in public school pay less for public school than my family did, with one child in private school.
Thats disturbing. It should be the exact opposite, the more children the more you pay per child. People with large families (over 3 children) vex me to no end. Sure its your right but I don't have to approve, feel sympathy (for something you choose to do) and I do not have to help you out (beyond basic survival needs).
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We pay for public education, not because our own children benefit, any more than our support of fire departments comes from their dousing the flames at our own house. We pay for public education because we are a healthier culture and a stronger democracy with a well-educated populace.Considering our last three presidential elections and a host of other issues in my lifetime,"well educated" isn't the adjective I'd use to describe the American people.
I want my money back!
We weren't including Texas in the "well-educated" population...after all, Texas has their own textbooks with history rewritten by the Republican Party...
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School vouchers is the greatest idea ever it allows parents to pull their children out of terrible schools and place them in good schools of their chooseing. Any time you can give people more options the better off they will be.
Our schools dont need more money we already give our schools more money per child than any other country in the world and it has done little to nothing to improve the quality of education. The children who are home schooled or go to private school have the best educations and have the least amount of money spent on them.
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What?
We weren't including Texas in the "well-educated" population...after all, Texas has their own textbooks with history rewritten by the Republican Party...
Seriously. Everybody knows that the only thing textbooks are good for in Texas is burning ;)
If you hate taxes so much, maybe you should fly a plane into an IRS building.
What, too soon?
If you hate taxes so much, maybe you should fly a plane into an IRS building.
What, too soon?
BAD POODLE! Go stand in the corner. And not the corner in the bathroom by the toilet!
Seriously. Everybody knows that the only thing textbooks are good for in Texas is burning ;)What?
We weren't including Texas in the "well-educated" population...after all, Texas has their own textbooks with history rewritten by the Republican Party...
*pulls out shotgun* What did you just say?
You go to school for 4-8 years to earn a position earning far less than your level of education warrants. You not only have to deal with your actual boss like a normal job, but the 250 plus parents a year who consider themselves your boss because they happen to have paid their taxes this year. And lets not forget the job itself, trying to teach 125 + disrespectful punks a year a subject they have no interest in learning, who don’t respect your authority, whom you can’t discipline, but are expected to make brilliant or you are blamed for their failure.
Yep. Look at the numbers, in my case:
And I was willing to put up with all of that, in addition to parents who automatically blamed me for everything from kids refusing to hand in work to El Nino. The straw that broke the camel's back was one question from a "supportive" administrator: "What gave you the impression that you're here to teach these kids anything?"
I work in industry now. I make triple the salary for half as much work and infinitely less grief. Simply firing all teachers won't help the mess we're looking at -- actually caring about education would need to come first.
*pulls out shotgun* What did you just say?Seriously. Everybody knows that the only thing textbooks are good for in Texas is burning ;)What?
We weren't including Texas in the "well-educated" population...after all, Texas has their own textbooks with history rewritten by the Republican Party...
Danged ferners! Git a rope.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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As for school vouchers, HELL NO. Vouchers has to be the worst idea for education possible. Our education system does not need to be sucked dry any more. Vouchers only benefit the rich by making it even easier for them to pull their children out of the real world and put them in a private-school bubble. I should know, I went to private school my whole life. What's really needed, at least in my state, is an elimination of tax breaks for more children. Here in Utah, families with 8 children in public school pay less for public school than my family did, with one child in private school.
School vouchers is the greatest idea ever; it allows parents to pull their children out of terrible schools and place them in good schools of their choosing. Any time you can give people more options the better off they will be.
Our schools don't need more money; we already give our schools more money per child than any other country in the world, and it has done little to nothing to improve the quality of education. The children who are home-schooled or go to private school have the best educations and have the least amount of money spent on them.
The issue of vouchers is the education messageboard equivalent of the Edition Wars on this forum, or the Great Homosexuality Debate on Chritian messageboards. It's the hot button topic that people find easier to contribute their position than read and reply to other comments.
I've tried to follow voucher debates before they become toxic, and I have one question for the voucher enthusiasts, such as Ison.
Could you model a workable voucher system for me?
I ask, because the voucher proponents whom I've read make some assumptions I don't believe are warranted.
- Do you believe that "good schools" where parents would want to send their kids have unlimited room? If not, who decides which students get to attend? Will the "desirable" school get to cherry-pick which students it accepts?
- Should parents who have chosen to pay higher taxes for a better school for their children be required to accept additional students until their school facilities are overstressed and no better than other schools?
- What if your child is one of the students who remain in an "undesirable" school? Will your child's education be improved when the cherry-picked students leave, and the school's budget gets cut along with them?
- Should all students have the same voucher? Some students (those with IEPs, limited English proficiency, on free-and-reduced-lunch programs) cost the school system more than other students. Should they have proportionally larger vouchers?
- How do vouchers address the problem differently or more effectively than magnet schools, charter schools, or simply open enrollment?
Danged ferners! Git a rope.
Hangin' is too good fer this boy. I'm gonna fill him full of lead!