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The first item is the Cloak of the Manta Ray. It seems the item is INTENDED to provide its +3 NA ability when it is activated or in use - underwater water. However as written you could interpret that affect as always active. Which is correct?
The second is the Adventurer's Sash. In its description it says - it requires a move action to open or close the clasp securing a pouch or they can be left open (unlocked) to allow even EASIER access to items inside. Some interpret that "even easier" portion to mean if a pouch is left unsecrued it is a free action to retrieve an item inside. How was this item intended?
Hoping for a quick official answer and not a 50 post debate. P.S. Both of these questions came up this last weekend at a game convention.
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The second is the Adventurer's Sash. In its description it says - it requires a move action to open or close the clasp securing a pouch or they can be left open (unlocked) to allow even EASIER access to items inside. Some interpret that "even easier" portion to mean if a pouch is left unsecrued it is a free action to retrieve an item inside. How was this item intended?
I would like to hear something on this to, Trying to make an alchemist for Pathfinder Society, and having to use a Move action to Pull Vials out would be a Pain in the ass!
Let me add my voice(?) to the request for a clarification of the sash.
The first item is the Cloak of the Manta Ray. It seems the item is INTENDED to provide its +3 NA ability when it is activated or in use - underwater water. However as written you could interpret that affect as always active. Which is correct?
As I read it you must be in salt water, due to the way the text i composed:
"... until the wearer enters water"
"At that time... appears identical to a manta ray..."
"He gains +3 NA armor bonus... like a real manta ray."
Thus, I seems like there is a condition that must be met, a certain change, an some specific effect due to that change.
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Regarding the cloak of the manta ray:
The phrase "at that time" identifies when the subsequent abilities come into effect. Those abilities being a +3 NA bonus, ability to breathe underwater, and a swim speed of 60ft, also an attack with ta manta ray's tail spine.
Regarding the adventurer's pouch:
pg 187 manipulate an item
Moving or manipulating an item is usually a move action. This includes retrieving or putting away a stored item.
I would say that it just lets you avoid the move action to get into your pouch.
I think the benefit of the adventurer's pack is in the additional move action just to open the darn thing. Makes it a LOT harder to steal from while you're in town, and you can just leave it open when you're traversing the wilds.
My searchfu brought up an older post regarding the pouch, but with no official response.
Also, the pazio guys are rushing like mad to meet some deadlines this week. So if you haven't got an official response by the 18th or so, bump it then :p
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The first item is the Cloak of the Manta Ray. It seems the item is INTENDED to provide its +3 NA ability when it is activated or in use - underwater water. However as written you could interpret that affect as always active. Which is correct?
The second is the Adventurer's Sash. In its description it says - it requires a move action to open or close the clasp securing a pouch or they can be left open (unlocked) to allow even EASIER access to items inside. Some interpret that "even easier" portion to mean if a pouch is left unsecrued it is a free action to retrieve an item inside. How was this item intended?
Hoping for a quick official answer and not a 50 post debate. P.S. Both of these questions came up this last weekend at a game convention.
if the sash was intended to grant access as a free or swift action it would say which type of action it should be.
What's the action to unlock the clasp then?
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if the sash was intended to grant access as a free or swift action it would say which type of action it should be.
Then why Distinguish in the description, that leaving them open is easier to access then leaving them clasped which is a move action to open in the description?
Each pouch has a stiff leather flap that can be secured against jostling with a clasp(requiring a move action to open or close) or left unfastened for easier access.
It is easier then a move action when left unfastened, so what is easier then a move action? a free action? Swift Action?.
I think this is being overcomplicated. Of course it is easier to access the contents if it is open, because then you don't have to spend a move action to open it.
It says it requires a move action to open or close, but says nothing about retrieving an item inside as part of that. To me that means move action to open, move action to retrieve. So the "easier" is only having to spend one move action.
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I think this is being overcomplicated. Of course it is easier to access the contents if it is open, because then you don't have to spend a move action to open it.
It says it requires a move action to open or close, but says nothing about retrieving an item inside as part of that. To me that means move action to open, move action to retrieve. So the "easier" is only having to spend one move action.
That could be the case, but if so then it is inconsistent with the current rules, to get an item from a Backpack is only a move action, not two move actions, and that is even harder since it is on your back and not in an easy to get place like the Adventurer's Sash.
Edit: If that was the case, why would anyone buy this? If it took 2 move actions to retrieve an item form the Sash it is worse then a backpack and 10x more expensive!
I think this is being overcomplicated. Of course it is easier to access the contents if it is open, because then you don't have to spend a move action to open it.
It says it requires a move action to open or close, but says nothing about retrieving an item inside as part of that. To me that means move action to open, move action to retrieve. So the "easier" is only having to spend one move action.
That could be the case, but if so then it is inconsistent with the current rules, to get an item from a Backpack is only a move action, not two move actions, and that is even harder since it is on your back and not in an easy to get place like the Adventurer's Sash.
Edit: If that was the case, why would anyone buy this? If it took 2 move actions to retrieve an item form the Sash it is worse then a backpack and 10x more expensive!
It's my understanding that taking something from a backpack is a full-round action. An item needs to be in a pocket or belt pouch to be retrieved with a move action. So only taking a move action to retrieve something from a backpack is an improvement.
Also remember, one of the advantages of the Handy Haversack is that if it does not contain more than a backpack-full of stuff, retrieving items from it is only a move action.
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It's my understanding that taking something from a backpack is a full-round action. An item needs to be in a pocket or belt pouch to be retrieved with a move action. So only taking a move action to retrieve something from a backpack is an improvement.
Also remember, one of the advantages of the Handy Haversack is that if it does not contain more than a backpack-full of stuff, retrieving items from it is only a move action.
Nop just a move action., look up move actions, getting an item stored is only a move action, an item in a backpack is a stored item, does not say otherwise anywhere else, I think if they wanted to distinguish separate rules for a backpack they would have put that in.
The Bonus for the Handy Haversack is not that it is only a move action, that is already true for retrieving stored items, the bonus is that for an handy haversack it does not provoke an attack of opportunity that you normally get for retrieving a stored item.
That could be the case, but if so then it is inconsistent with the current rules, to get an item from a Backpack is only a move action, not two move actions, and that is even harder since it is on your back and not in an easy to get place like the Adventurer's Sash.
Edit: If that was the case, why would anyone buy this? If it took 2 move actions to retrieve an item form the Sash it is worse then a backpack and 10x more expensive!
The benefit could be that your items can't be easily stolen from you, since any would-be pickpocket has to spend a move action just to get at them.
This is why I'm a little disappointed there wasn't anything like the FRCS's Potion Belt or Bandolier in the AA...
In my campaign, I rule that if you keep an item "exposed", then you may retrieve it as a free action. However, exposed items take area effect damage as you do, which is often enough to destroy scrolls and even potions if you don't spring for some tougher bottles.
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if the sash was intended to grant access as a free or swift action it would say which type of action it should be.Then why Distinguish in the description, that leaving them open is easier to access then leaving them clasped which is a move action to open in the description?
Each pouch has a stiff leather flap that can be secured against jostling with a clasp(requiring a move action to open or close) or left unfastened for easier access.
It is easier then a move action when left unfastened, so what is easier then a move action? a free action? Swift Action?.
I don't have seekers and was just going based on the idea that in general anything that changes what type of action something takes lists explicitly the sort of action it becomes. "This allows you to draw a weapon as a free action instead of as part of a move action."
I looked up the item on Nethys' site and frankly I'm baffled. If it's meant to give you access as a XXXX action it should say so. Worse, it really gives no indication about how big the pouches are. Are these potion sized flasks? What is the point of having clasps, can things fall out if they aren't clasped shut? It's a screwy item that gives details about irrelevant things but doesn't talk about specifics. Just poorly written. I suspect it's meant to allowing someone to access to 6 small items as a swift or a free action but it's just not written well enough to know what the design intent was.
The second is the Adventurer's Sash. In its description it says - it requires a move action to open or close the clasp securing a pouch or they can be left open (unlocked) to allow even EASIER access to items inside. Some interpret that "even easier" portion to mean if a pouch is left unsecrued it is a free action to retrieve an item inside. How was this item intended?
Normally drawing an item is a move action.
Drawing an item from the sash requires opening it first(a move action) then drawing it(a move action). I would say that having it open was the only way to quick draw from it. Actually I can't really see the point of the item unless your DM is in love with sending pick-pockets after you.
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The second is the Adventurer's Sash. In its description it says - it requires a move action to open or close the clasp securing a pouch or they can be left open (unlocked) to allow even EASIER access to items inside. Some interpret that "even easier" portion to mean if a pouch is left unsecrued it is a free action to retrieve an item inside. How was this item intended?
Normally drawing an item is a move action.
Drawing an item from the sash requires opening it first(a move action) then drawing it(a move action). I would say that having it open was the only way to quick draw from it. Actually I can't really see the point of the item unless your DM is in love with sending pick-pockets after you.
I think you are reading it right (Move action to open, move action to pull something out) but that's just silly and makes the item pointless. Why would anyone buy one of these?
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Normally drawing an item is a move action.
Drawing an item from the sash requires opening it first(a move action) then drawing it(a move action). I would say that having it open was the only way to quick draw from it. Actually I can't really see the point of the item unless your DM is in love with sending pick-pockets after you.
I just don't agree with that.
Removing a stored item is a Move action, The intent of that is that removing an item from a Backpack is only a move action, I doubt everyone is walking around with opened Backpacks. The Sash is not anymore difficult to remove an item from then a backpack. Opening the Sash and getting an item is a Move action, leaving the pockets unlatched makes it easier to get those items. That could mean nothing and is just narrative, it could mean a swift action or free action or it could mean you can remove items from the sash without worrying about an attack of opportunity.
Really would like Paizo to tell us the Intent of this item, I think it makes a difference especially for the Alchemist class that is solely based on Stored items (Potions).
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Really would like Paizo to tell us the Intent of this item, I think it makes a difference especially for the Alchemist class that is solely based on Stored items (Potions).
Yeah, extracts are a bit of a nuisance, you have to draw them then drink them, essentially a full round action to cast a spell. Pretty nasty.
I took the accelerated drinker trait so I can scarf potions as a move action but even that's not enough to compare to standard action spellcasting because you still have to take a move action to draw them.
I'm also investing in 2 wrist sheaths so I can have a couple extracts ready as an immediate action.
I feel your pain.
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Really would like Paizo to tell us the Intent of this item, I think it makes a difference especially for the Alchemist class that is solely based on Stored items (Potions).Yeah, extracts are a bit of a nuisance, you have to draw them then drink them, essentially a full round action to cast a spell. Pretty nasty.
I took the accelerated drinker trait so I can scarf potions as a move action but even that's not enough to compare to standard action spellcasting because you still have to take a move action to draw them.
I'm also investing in 2 wrist sheaths so I can have a couple extracts ready as an immediate action.
I feel your pain.
For a home game I would not really care, as a GM i would just make the call, but I am worried about PFS where I can't just make that call.
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For a home game I would not really care, as a GM i would just make the call, but I am worried about PFS where I can't just make that call.Really would like Paizo to tell us the Intent of this item, I think it makes a difference especially for the Alchemist class that is solely based on Stored items (Potions).Yeah, extracts are a bit of a nuisance, you have to draw them then drink them, essentially a full round action to cast a spell. Pretty nasty.
I took the accelerated drinker trait so I can scarf potions as a move action but even that's not enough to compare to standard action spellcasting because you still have to take a move action to draw them.
I'm also investing in 2 wrist sheaths so I can have a couple extracts ready as an immediate action.
I feel your pain.
Yeah, I am thinking the same thing. Up until recently I've been pretty laid back about the rules but now I'm doing PFS and I can't really talk to a single GM for a solution.
Shameless bump still looking for clarification
Also bumping, as I played a potion brewing witch this weekend, and was stymied by not having any good way to carry all the damn things :)
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On the Sash:
It's a move action to "Open it" then another move action to remove something -- the lock on the pouch is complicated and requires time to open on it's own. With the pouch unlocked then it's simply the move action to pull whatever is wanted out.
Locked = move action to open, move action to get item.
Unlocked = move action to get item.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Some comments on the sash:
Capacity - none of the containerss talk about capacity, so this one doesn't either. Personally, I wish they did, but I wasn't going to rock the boat.
The "main" benefit of the sash is that you can ditch it in a hurry, although that suffered a bit in development. Originally, it could be dropped as a swift or a move action, in editing this was simplified to just a move action. The best way to address the quick-release is to let it be dropped as a part of normal movement, which is pretty much a GM's call. If I'd been asked to change that wording, that's how I would have done it, since a backpack can already be removed as a move action and dropped as a free action.
Getting an item from a secured pouch would count as retrieving a stored item, from an unsecured pouch would count as "in easy reach", letting you use the "draw or sheathe a weapon" action to get at it. Burning an entire item's worth of words describing that didn't seem like an efficient use of text. Being able to switch configurations is a small benefit that probably only matters if your GM enforces some amount of realism when your character falls, gets hung upside down, or dumped in the water.
Ultimately, at 20 gp, it is basically a masterwork backpack in price, and was never intended to provide a huge in-game benefit.
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Technically being able to draw an item out as part of a normal move action is a good bit better than having to burn a move to get it out so that make a lot of sense.
I don't get the benefits of being able to ditch it in a hurry, that's not something that's come up in our games.
I agree... And thanks Russ!
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Technically being able to draw an item out as part of a normal move action is a good bit better than having to burn a move to get it out so that make a lot of sense.
I don't get the benefits of being able to ditch it in a hurry, that's not something that's come up in our games.
When you're at a medium burden, and suddenly don't want to be.