Anti-Paladins and Puppies - Is it a Good Act Not to Kick Them?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

All of these highly productive and insightful paladin threads on the boards in recent weeks got me to thinking about Anti-Paladins.

Suppose an anti-paladin comes upon a puppy in the street. Is it a good act to not kick it? What if it's in a city controlled by orcs and kicking puppies is mandated by law? Can the anti-paladin kick the puppy because it's evil or would he have to not kick the puppy because it's chaotic?


He could raise the puppy to be a ninja poodle...


Neither. The emissary of Chaotic Evil can do what he damn well pleases as he is not bound by codes of (im)morality. If the puppy is in the way, kick it. If it's not in the way, keep on walking. If you're feeling a little malevolent, then go out of your way and kick the puppy, and then move on to your next obstacle.


I'd have to drop his alignment to Nuetral if he didn't kick the puppy (or at least seek an Atonement). This is if he didn't play it cool and then hire an assassin to take it out, of course. There's a lot of role playing options there.

Sovereign Court

Are there any ponies to kick?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

Paladins don't have to stop everything they're doing and find a home for every stray puppy they meet, why should an antipaladin have to kick every one?

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Callous Jack wrote:
Are there any ponies to kick?

Yeah, but given that the anti-paladin in question is not epic level, that raises the question of whether they have to commit an evil act even if it means they will die instantly as a result.


Kvantum wrote:
Paladins don't have to stop everything they're doing and find a home for every stray puppy they meet, why should an antipaladin have to kick every one?

Exactly.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

I see that either my sense of humor is too subtle, my writing is less articulate than I would hope, or people do not have Sense Motive as a class skill...

Dark Archive

Sebastian wrote:
I see that either my sense of humor is too subtle, my writing is less articulate than I would hope, or people do not have Sense Motive as a class skill...

Wisdom's a dump stat....


Sebastian wrote:

All of these highly productive and insightful paladin threads on the boards in recent weeks got me to thinking about Anti-Paladins.

Suppose an anti-paladin comes upon a puppy in the street. Is it a good act to not kick it? What if it's in a city controlled by orcs and kicking puppies is mandated by law? Can the anti-paladin kick the puppy because it's evil or would he have to not kick the puppy because it's chaotic?

I'm thinking of India, though I might be wrong. But there is a country where dogs are considered equivalent to sewer rats - wild creatures which spread disease.

So, would it be good to kick a sewer rat?

Then again, if you're last name is "Chamberlain" you might get a free pass on this one.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

Sebastian wrote:

All of these highly productive and insightful paladin threads on the boards in recent weeks got me to thinking about Anti-Paladins.

Suppose an anti-paladin comes upon a puppy in the street. Is it a good act to not kick it? What if it's in a city controlled by orcs and kicking puppies is mandated by law? Can the anti-paladin kick the puppy because it's evil or would he have to not kick the puppy because it's chaotic?

Given the logic of the neutral alignment I've seen posted here and other places (I can commit good AND evil actions and call it balance), I would say that not only MUST he kick the puppy to maintain his alignment, but he must actively seek out puppies to kick, other than the one he encounters randomly. To know and accept that there exists a puppy that hasn't been kicked is a good act, and would cause him to rise to grace.


Christopher Dudley wrote:
Given the logic of the neutral alignment I've seen posted here and other places (I can commit good AND evil actions and call it balance), I would say that not only MUST he kick the puppy to maintain his alignment, but he must actively seek out puppies to kick, other than the one he encounters randomly. To know and accept that there exists a puppy that hasn't been kicked is a good act, and would cause him to rise to grace.

How could one claim to be a true anti-paladin if they didn't actively seek puppies to kick?

p.s. You're referring to one of my threads. I feel special. :)


Yes, if he doesn't kick it he rises to neutral. If he in any way helps the puppy, he immediately ascends and must seek corruption.

GM Sarandosil is tough but cruel.


Oh this is just GM Fiat!

Here I am playing an Anti-Paladin and the GM puts a puppy in that I didn't notice until it was too late to kick it as I was busy raping and pillaging the village it was in and so now the GM has made me Fall and I'm just a warrior.

That is like so unfair, and I'm going to hop on the boards and write a 72 page thesis on how ridiculous it is to have an anti-paladin code and how that even though I'm LE I should still be allowed to act CE and anyone who disagrees with me shall be shut down with cries of 'FALLACY', be told that they have no place in OP and should stick to homebrew, or are stuck in the past.

Dark Archive

Kicking a puppy is not even enough. He must do more evil. Eat the puppy. Raw.


Sebastian wrote:
I see that either my sense of humor is too subtle, my writing is less articulate than I would hope, or people do not have Sense Motive as a class skill...

The prince of darkness has a sense of humor? A lawyer? Nahh....


BYC wrote:
Kicking a puppy is not even enough. He must do more evil. Eat the puppy. Raw.

Then after that, <redacted>


Of course he wouldn't have to kick the puppy, he could pick up it, take it home and do stuff to it...whether that's torture or experimentation or what not.

But just because an Anti-paladin is CE doesn't make him Chaotic Stupid, same as every paladin most definitely shouldn't be Lawful Stupid.

And 1e Druids shouldn't be Stupid Stupid since they're true neutral.

Alignments are guides, not straight-jackets.


Mutant puppies with wands of scorching ray attached to their heads, and shark jaws...Mixed with tainted Magic blood so they can breed with ANYTHING!!!

MWUAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAHAAAAA

Excuse me, I need to go roll up an Anti-Paladin.

Edit: oh and the puppies have carrion crawler feelers too.

So, strike the shark jaws, instead ring of sustenance and no mouth, so they just breed after mauling with the carrion crawler tentacles.


BYC wrote:
Kicking a puppy is not even enough. He must do more evil. Eat the puppy. Raw.

Spoiler:
Then, after it has become a brute(animal) ghost, turn it into a zombie puppy and have it maul any (blind)children stupid enough to pet a puppy that smells like an open grave during the summer!
Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

What if they're fiendish puppies? Or hell hound puppies? Then wouldn't the evil act be helping them?


Urizen wrote:
BYC wrote:
Kicking a puppy is not even enough. He must do more evil. Eat the puppy. Raw.
Then after that, <redacted>

"It puts the lotion on it's skin or else it gets the hose again."


You all have it wrong.
Kicking a puppy is not a bad thing. It is good, as it feels good.
And leaving a puppy live is evil, as puppies are all evil. Especially poodles.

Scarab Sages

Kvantum wrote:
What if they're fiendish puppies? Or hell hound puppies? Then wouldn't the evil act be helping them?

Or what if it's a puppy possessed by a fiend? Hmmm.....


Aberzombie wrote:
Kvantum wrote:
What if they're fiendish puppies? Or hell hound puppies? Then wouldn't the evil act be helping them?
Or what if it's a puppy possessed by a fiend? Hmmm.....

Or a fiend possessed by a puppy? Surely, not even fiends deserve that.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

Ooo, a fiend-puppy brain switch. Do you help the fiend get back to its normal body, and unleash an evil onto the world, or keep a puppy-brained fiend running loose with its evil powers fully intact... choices.


Beware Cthulhumutt.


PG-13:
Every time you kick a puppy, the anti-paladin god doesn't masturbate.

Or something like that. Boy, this theology stuff is tough!


The pit fiend could jump up into the PC's lap and start licking their face.


Fergie wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Or something like that. Boy, this theology stuff is tough!

LOL.

Dark Archive

Kvantum wrote:
What if they're fiendish puppies? Or hell hound puppies? Then wouldn't the evil act be helping them?

The character is CE. So if the evil puppy can't protect itself, it doesn't deserve to be an evil puppy.


Perplexed Evil Lawyer wrote:

Dear Ask a Succubus,

All of these highly productive and insightful paladin threads on the boards in recent weeks got me to thinking about Anti-Paladins.

Suppose an anti-paladin comes upon a puppy in the street. Is it a good act to not kick it? What if it's in a city controlled by orcs and kicking puppies is mandated by law? Can the anti-paladin kick the puppy because it's evil or would he have to not kick the puppy because it's chaotic?

Perplexed Evil lawyer

Dear Perplexed Evil Lawyer,

You clearly spend too much time wrestling with moral dilemmas and not enough time simply doing whatever you want.
However, since you asked, the following principle should be applied:
Is the puppy a fire-breathing phase-doppleganger giant space hamster in disguise, and if so is a local bookmaker taking bets on the fight? If so put money on the 'puppy' to win. Everyone who does not read my column will be expecting the anti-paladin to win, and you should get very good odds.

Hoping that this advice is of assistance to you in your difficulties.

Scarab Sages

Hmm. Taking the question literally...

Well, in moral theory it is always good to never kick anything. Living that is. So to compare kicking Anti-Paladins to kicking puppies, since they are both living creatures, therefore neither should be kicked.

Now of course the Anti-Paladin often behaves in a manner that deserves a swift kick in the butt -- if not a worse fate -- and so, since she/he/it might be prone to kill you with murderous glee you might as ill she/he/it first. Once the Anti-Paladin is deceased, it is of course longer a living creature, so therefore kicking it should be perfectly fine. Try to brace yourself for the mass though - no need to break one's foot kicking that corpse. Maybe one could hire a giant for the job instead.

In regards to puppies, well their insufferable cuteness as they poop on one's carpet is bound to drive one loony, over the edge... Sigh. You will probably lose all self control and attempt to kick the whining, doe-eyed beast. Well, the good news is that you won't break your foot. Perhaps you should kill it first with the Anti-Paladin's corpse? Just lift up the corpse and drop it on the squealing mutt. There now. Done. Roll over the Anti-Paladin's corpse and then you can kick that dead puppy. Moral problems solved.

Please note that such situations are full of caveats. Ymmv.

Signed,

F.G., Professor of Everything


A chaotic evil person generally don't care about rules. They just want to have fun causing pain any way possible. So an anti-paladin in this situation would kick the puppy if it feels like it, and not care if it is a law requirement or not.

So emphasize not caring about the law, rather than always against it.


Section 48.39-C, Heading 23A of the Code of Chaos dictates that the Anti-Paladin must first drink the puppy's blood, then use its skull as a cup holder. So it has been written, so it shall be done!

(Note: the Code of Chaos is subject to change without notice)

Scarab Sages

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A brutish anti-paladin would not see a puppy as a worthy enough diversion to take the extra side step necessary for the punt.

But, the bored, trouble maker, anti-paladin would stop and take his time. He would attach a leash to the little puppy and walk it down the street to a minion necromancer's abode. There, he would demand the minion summon a swarm of rabid bats to infect the cute little puppy. Then, taking great care, the anti-paladin would heal the wounds of our dear little critter, while letting the disease gestate. After giving the puppy a nice bath, the anti-paladin would take a stroll though the night to the local orphanage. There, tying the leash to the front door of the orphanage, the children will have a cute little gift in the morning. Then, the anti-paladin and necromancer would wager on how many children will be bitten before the good church folk have to kill the poor little puppy in front of the impressionable, little children's eyes.

Lesson #1: Don't waste an opportunity to be creative. Souring the view of the church in the eyes of a couple dozen children is far more satisfying than one little yelp.
Lesson #2: Good acts can be the tools of evil intentions and actions.


Satin Knights wrote:


Lesson #2: Good acts can be the tools of evil intentions and actions.

Indeed... perhaps Sir Darknight knows that the Local Princess would be so impressed by his good intentions toward the puppy, and unwittingly lower her defences against his BAD intentions toward her :p


1 person marked this as a favorite.

A real anti-paladin wouldn't kick that puppy. He'd rescue that puppy, and start an underground resistance movement to help protect other puppies from being kicked, harboring them and moving them through an underground network of stashes and secret contacts to a hidden safehouse, where all of the puppies could live and frolic and play, free from the tyranny of the tyrannical puppy-kicking orc laws.

He'd then tip it off to the authorities, frame the entire operation on a 12 year old pimple-faced little orc girl, and rig the entire puppy-filled orphanage to go up in a massive explosion of flaming napalm and burning fur when the orc guards show up and storm inside to raid the place.

Lamenting the passing of the guards in the line of duty while attending the funeral services, he would try to pick up on one of the grieving orc widows in attendance since they're now back on the market. He would't call her back in the morning.

When accepting his commendation from the Mayor for one of the biggest puppy-harboring busts in the history of the city, he'd make sure he's already arranged beforehand to swap out the Mayor's speech with one that contains a magic rune that triggers a polymorph spell. When the Mayor suddenly turns into a puppy mid-speech, the anti-paladin would stand up triumphantly, yell out; "Everybody stand back! I got this!" and drop-kick the polymorphed mayor puppy into the awaiting crowd.

Puppy kicked: Check.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

This is the weirdest making-the-paladin-fall thread ever.


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Not the same thing as what you're trying to draw a parallel to. If a monster is about to savage a small child and a paladin doesn't act to save that child, he has not committed an action therefore has not committed an evil act. The antipaladin not kicking the dog has similarly not acted.

That all being said, permitting evil to go unthwarted may be contrary to the code of conduct of a given paladin, or to the wishes of their god. RAW doesn't apply, but GM interpretation may.

Now if the antipaladin intervenes when someone else is kicking the puppy, that would be a Good act.


Is the puppy good?

Dark Archive

Hmm, I think I will have to go out of my way to put a Hound Archon, er I mean puppy in the way of the PCs now to see which one kicks it.


Mr.Fishy wrote:
Is the puppy good?

Isn't that like asking if the slaad is lawful?


Wait a minute is this a normal puppy?

What if its a disguised quasit sent by your patron demon prince just waiting to be kicked?

What if its a hellhound puppy and its huge nessian warhound mum was watching nearby and you are only 1st level?

I'd personally kill the puppy, skin it and wear its bloody fur as a hat. But then again my anti-paladin would be a bit of a loon.


I would raise it like a son treat it very well for like 2 years and then kill it to show how evil I am.


The smitter wrote:
I would raise it like a son treat it very well for like 2 years and then kill it to show how evil I am.

Nah! That takes way too much patience and means I get to spend less time bedding and corrupting female paladins.


The smitter wrote:
I would raise it like a son treat it very well for like 2 years and then kill it to show how evil I am.

Wait, is the puppy sentient? If it's not than it hardly matters. Also, was it sleeping? If the puppy has a chance to defend itself the antipally may be wasting his time.

Sovereign Court

the code of evil section of the antipally class say they can even do good all the time and for years on end as long as the end result is evil! :) they don't even have to atone for these good acts!!! (think a politician kissing babies for 4 years until he is made king and then BAM! the evil amendments to the constitution roll in!! muhahahahah! :P)

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