THIS IS NOT MEANT TO BE A GUIDE
I've seen a lot of talk going on around this board and others, concerning blasting in 3.0/3.5/PF and how it's sub-par when compared to the "god wizard". It terms of usefulness, it probably is.
Screw that! Sometimes you just want to blow things up and melt faces. This thread is devoted to all things explodatory. It's not meant to be any kind of guide, but rather a place to discuss how to get the most out of your blasting. I've only had experience doing it with arcane casters, but this thread is by no means limited to those.
Now, if you're going to blast there are a few things every blaster should have in mind:
- You're going to need spells that deal with every kind of saving throw, as well as ones that don't allow a saving throw
- You're going to need to pump up the DC of your spells to obscene amounts.
- You're going to need to have spells for when blasting isn't appropriate
- You're going to need spells that take away your opponent's ability to avoid your blasting
Pumping up the spell DC is very important. When you get your DC high enough you can almost make making the saving throw an impossibility for some enemies. Since you're mostly going to be using evocation spells, this is easier than it sounds.
For a specialized role like the blaster, and not a utility one, the sorcerer is way better than the wizard (even the evoker's abilities suck). You get more spells per day and you can choose them according to the situation. The bloodline I prefer is the Arcane one, because of the bloodline arcana ability which gives you a +1 on the DC of metamagic'd spells, and because of the School Power ability, which gives you a +2 on the DC of spells from a certain school. Another bloodline which is pretty good is the Draconic one, which gives you +1 damage per dice on a certain element, which can increase your damage substantially. I prefer playing gnomes and halfling sorcerers because of their small size which is handy for casting touch attacks.
As for feats, greater spell focus in Evocation is a must. When comparing an Arcane Bloodline Sorcerer with School Power and GSF (Evocation) casting a metamagic spell to a caster without those abilities, the arcane sorcerer has a spell DC of 5 points higher than the other dude which is extremely good. Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot are also necessary to cast your ray spells effectively.
As for metamagic, Empower spell is pretty good for blast spells, but you should try and use it for spells that use a low dice (d4, d6 etc.) for maximum effect. Maximize spell should be avoided because it's way too expensive and totally not worth it. Quicken spell is also a staple to get off stuff like True Strike (for your ranged touch attacks) and Magic Missiles to finish off the baddy.
The spells are of course the most important aspect of any caster, but if I started rating them all this post would become way too long and akin to a guide. I'll just list my personal favorites and call it quits: Magic Missile (great finisher at higher levels), Scorching Ray, Flaming Sphere, Fireball, Lightning Bolt (haters gonna hate) Cloudkill, Enervation (not technically a blast, but whatever), Cone of Cold, Disintegrate, Circle of Death etc. I also like to go with stuff that shields melee allies from my elemental onslaught (resist/protection from energy) and stuff to drag enemies saves down (stuff like hold person works wonders against low will save rogues so you can negate their reflex saves and melt them into rogue goo). Even though you fill your spell list with blasting for every level you're still going to have a lot of space for lame stuff like buffing.
Anyways, how do you guys like to blast? Any tips you've got for the rest of us?
So um. What's the guidelines for advice here?
I dunno, man. How do you blast (if you blast at all?) Overlooked stuff, stuff to avoid etc.
Anyways. I've always liked Quickened True Strike with Disintegrate. When you're fighting stuff with a high touch AC, they usually don't have a lot of hit points or a good fortitude save, so bypassing their touch AC is going to be the priority. Using quick strike with scorching ray is pretty much useless because it only affects the first ray. I've never even taken Polar Ray, it's just bad.
I'd like to hear your case for the wizard. All I can see the wizard has going for him is getting the spells earlier and not taking a full round to cast metamagic blasts, which admittedly is pretty good. The sorcerer has more blasting power per day and can adapt to the situation, when he encounters a foe with an elemental immunity for example. Pumping the DC of evocation spells by 2 with Bloodline Arcana also seems pretty major to me.
Disintegrate is a terrible spell which is completely inferior to Stone to Flesh for removing enemies from the fight. That's why I ask about the parameters here; there's no reason to cast Disintegrate on an enemy pretty much ever unless you're gratified by rolling lots of d6s.
Save or die spells are within of the parameters of blasting. Flesh to Stone is mostly better than disintegrate, but there are some creatures immune to petrification and even though it sucks, a successful disintegrate save still has some side effects. There's also the problem of retrieving the loot of the petrified creature. I guess Flesh to Stone is the better option in almost of the scenarios, though.
|
The problem with blasting is that it's horribly inefficient. Let's compare haste to fireball at fifth level.
Haste lets the Fighter or Barbarian make an additional attack with a very high bonus that does 2d6+10 damage every round for the whole fight (only lasts five rounds, but how many fights have lasted longer?). It lets the rogue make an extra attack at 4d6 in the same way. Even if there are no other combat characters - no cleric with a mace, no animal companions, no summoned monsters - that's still 6d6+10 every round (average 31), assuming both attacks hit (which they are likely to do).
A fireball does 5d6 (average 17.5) per target, assuming they make the save; while the exact number vary, on average more mobs will make the save than extra hasted attacks will miss. But even if all fail their save and have no resistance, a fireball still needs to hit six targets to match what haste will do in three rounds.
Yes, the fighter and rogue wont always hit, and they wont always be able to make a full attack, but some enemies are going to make the save, have energy or spell resistance, or have evasion. And lets face it - you aren't going to be able to nail six enemies without hitting anything else all that often. Haste does significantly more damage, and does it in a way that is both more focused and more flexible.
All the blasting spells are like this - compare magic missile to enlarge person; even at a caster level of 5th, enlarge person is better if the fight lasts three or more rounds after it is cast.
I've spent a lot of time thinking about blast spells recently, and I've come to the conclusion that their damage basically needs to be flat out doubled in order for them to even begin having value.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The problem with blasting is that it's horribly inefficient. Let's compare haste to fireball at fifth level.
Haste lets the Fighter or Barbarian make an additional attack with a very high bonus that does 2d6+10 damage every round for the whole fight (only lasts five rounds, but how many fights have lasted longer?). It lets the rogue make an extra attack at 4d6 in the same way. Even if there are no other combat characters - no cleric with a mace, no animal companions, no summoned monsters - that's still 6d6+10 every round (average 31), assuming both attacks hit (which they are likely to do).
Two things.
1) This thread is supposed to be dedicated to blasting. Not the debate of whether blasting has merits, but to compare techniques for blasting amongst those who wish to do so.
2) Okay you just cast haste in round 1 for the awesome effects you noted. Who's to say you can't lay off a fireball on round 2?
Blasting may not be entirely efficient but it is fun. Picking up the 10 D6's and tossing them out on the table is a staple of tabletop role-playing. Some of us also don't buy the "uselessness" of blasting either. It may not be as effective overall as buffs or battlefield controls, but have you ever see a wizard cast quickened empowered scorching ray followed up with the old 3.5 dual spell feat (I think that was what it was called) and then a maximized scorching ray? Freakin' machine gun is what it is.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you are going to blast, one of the best things you can get a hold of is sculpt spell. Assuming you have access to 3.5 material get it. Even if you can take only one thing. The biggest advantage of blasting over say an archer is the ability to hit multiple foes at once. Being able to sculpt a spell into different shapes is a huge advantage there. Also, if you are going to blast make sure you take different shaped effects. Cones, radius bursts lines, try to have as many as possible in your arsenal.
And its true unfortunately that blasting is almost always inferior to other spells, but sometimes it's just fun to lay down hurt. I get that, and I respect it. After all one of my favorite characters I've ever played was a warmage.
There's also the problem of retrieving the loot of the petrified creature.You know, I always thought that too. Then my players started petrifying their foes, removing the (stone) heads with a sledgehammer, then using Break Enchantment.
A gift for you:
Targets: up to one creature per level, all within 30 ft. of each other.
A stone statue without a head is not a creature any longer.
Also, flesh to stone is subject to spell turning, unlike disintegrate. That's a nice advantage.
Blasting works well, because it stacks with your fighters and ends foes faster. Haste might *do* more damage, but fireball *saves* more damage.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You're absolutely right MIB, there is only one way to play each class, and personal playstyle desires be damned! I mean c'mon, the guy stated he realized that blasting wasn't optimal, but created a forum for people who want to blast regardless of this. Why would you then come to the forum and argue the merits of blasting vs. other caster builds? Do you just thrive on conflict?
Making blast fun and effective requires quite a bit of metagaming on the part of the DM.
If the DM routinely uses minion creatures in conjunction with a boss blasting can be fairly effective even if it doesn't insta-kill all the foes in an area.
An example EL 12 encounter for a party of 4 10th PCs might be as follows
Troll Cleric 7
leading 8 regular trolls
or
Human Cleric 10
leading 4 Human Fighter 6
and 4 Human Archer Ranger 6
Individually none of the minion creatures is particularly tough or intimidating but collectively they can probably throw enough attacks to sap the party's strength.
The wizard is still probably going to want to cast haste early on but if the blaster can hit 3-4 foes with a blast template spell like fireball, the blaster can substantially reduce the number of hit points the party is facing. This means that the PC fighter can drop his foes quicker and the enemy is less likely to overwhelm the defense and sack the quarterback... err attack the wizard.
Granted this style of play seems to be out of style in 3.x but it's one of the good aspects of 4e play and I wish more DMs would setup their encounters like this.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
Making blast fun and effective requires quite a bit of metagaming on the part of the DM.
If the DM routinely uses minion creatures in conjunction with a boss blasting can be fairly effective even if it doesn't insta-kill all the foes in an area.
An example EL 12 encounter for a party of 4 10th PCs might be as follows
Troll Cleric 7
leading 8 regular trollsor
Human Cleric 10
leading 4 Human Fighter 6
and 4 Human Archer Ranger 6Individually none of the minion creatures is particularly tough or intimidating but collectively they can probably throw enough attacks to sap the party's strength.
The wizard is still probably going to want to cast haste early on but if the blaster can hit 3-4 foes with a blast template spell like fireball, the blaster can substantially reduce the number of hit points the party is facing. This means that the PC fighter can drop his foes quicker and the enemy is less likely to overwhelm the defense and sack the quarterback... err attack the wizard.
Granted this style of play seems to be out of style in 3.x but it's one of the good aspects of 4e play and I wish more DMs would setup their encounters like this.
Agreed on this - if most combats are gang-ups on one or two enemies, then the single-target mega-zap spells are going to seem prohibitively awesome vs. area-effect attacks.
Likewise, if your party can dogpile on one or two foes and get a ton of full attacks, then haste becomes much more awesome than if they are facing a bunch of foes spread out so they have to keep moving around to engage them - the extra speed helps them engage, but they never get to cash in that extra attack.
Simple truth: AoE blasting is much more useful when you regularly have group fights than solo's.
|
|
You're absolutely right MIB, there is only one way to play each class, and personal playstyle desires be damned! I mean c'mon, the guy stated he realized that blasting wasn't optimal, but created a forum for people who want to blast regardless of this. Why would you then come to the forum and argue the merits of blasting vs. other caster builds? Do you just thrive on conflict?"I like setting people on fire, so I play a blaster. Here's a guide to setting people on fire." Good on you, fire is awesome. BTW, you're better off with magic missile over true strike because blah blah math.
"Blasting works well, because it stacks with your fighters and ends foes faster." >:|
See the difference in the two statements, and the response I gave both? I completely understand weighing aesthetics over strict efficiency. But when you start making false statements about efficiency, you can't retreat back behind "personal playstyle" when they're challenged. It's perfectly possible to optimize within stated parameters, and you don't even need to bend over backwards justifying the parameters. In fact, don't bother justifying the parameters; "fire is cool" is reason enough.
Disregard...scanned through posts and confused you with BobChuck for some reason...my apologies.
BobChuck! See my comment above.
Simple truth: AoE blasting is much more useful when you regularly have group fights than solo's.
I would also add: The usefulness of damaging spells is inversely proportional to the damage-dealing ability of the rest of the party.
Disintegrate is a must have spell, and not at all for doing damage. There are several other spells and effects that are immune to Dispel Magic/damage but are brought down by Disintegrate (and Mage's Disjunction, but since you get Disintegrate 6 levels earlier....).
Wall of Force and Forcecage are pains to get around without disintegrate but I think many people would suggest that memorizing disintegrate when you can bypass the spell with a dimension door instead is a waste of a spell slot.
Yes there are times when the wall of force is splitting a party and split parties are bad but this use of disintegrate is highly situational.
Disintegrate is a must have spell, and not at all for doing damage. There are several other spells and effects that are immune to Dispel Magic/damage but are brought down by Disintegrate (and Mage's Disjunction, but since you get Disintegrate 6 levels earlier....).
Mrs. Fishy enjoys Disintegrate. Mrs. Fishy enjoys improved critical with rays and hoping against hope that Mrs. Fishy gets to double the dice.
Mrs. Fishy is fond of the classics. Few things make Mrs. Fishy as happy as Time Stop + Multiple Delayed Blast Fireballs. Generalist Mage power to apply metamagic spontaneously also makes Mrs. Fishy happy.
Mrs. Fishy wonders what the most dice rollable in one turn of 20th level wizardry is.
Mrs. Fishy gives Man in Black the eye... does Man in Black know?
|
The biggest problem I seem to have with blasters (especially as the DM) is vs rogues and other pesky PCs that have improved evasion. Any work-arounds for that?
Scorching Ray and other ranged-touch that don't offer a save, and Horrid Wilting and other AoEs that have Fort or Will saves. Use it too much and they'll just get Mettle however.
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
On the benefits of scorching ray: one advantage it has over magic missile is the ability to score a critical hit once in a blue moon.
The biggest problem I seem to have with blasters (especially as the DM) is vs rogues and other pesky PCs that have improved evasion. Any work-arounds for that?
Aint that the truth - in a long-running 3.5 campaign, almost all of the party had evasion and blast effects were basically useless. The party wanted dragons to waste a round breathing on them. :)
(if the DC was high enough that it couldn't be evaded, the party was probably toast anyway)
|
|
Aint that the truth - in a long-running 3.5 campaign, almost all of the party had evasion and blast effects were basically useless. The party wanted dragons to waste a round breathing on them. :)
(if the DC was high enough that it couldn't be evaded, the party was probably toast anyway)
Heaven help them if the DM had thought to throw a Shadow Dragon at them. That would have put a little fear in them. :)
Edit: Hmm, never really read up on them, didn't realize that was a Reflex save too. At least there's always the pyroclastic dragon and its Fort save or die breath.
Evasion is one of the key abilities of the rogue like classes. As a DM I like having those abilities actually mean something even if it means that the NPC blaster sorceror is pretty ineffective at killing the rogues. The blaster spams fireball, etc and for some reason those pesky kids keep dodging the effects of the spell.
Sure the mastermind wizard is going to be aware of the party's capabilities and plan accordingly but the low to mid level humanoid shaman/witch doctors who like impressing the rest of the gobbos with the big boom spells are prone to using big flashy spells regardless of their effect and whether allies are under the template.
Blasting works well, because it stacks with your fighters and ends foes faster. Haste might *do* more damage, but fireball *saves* more damage.How is doing less damage to more foes, in a way that doesn't remove foes from the fight, "saving" damage?
Because it does it all at once, up front, instead of spreading the damage over multiple rounds. Haste often does almost nothing at all in the first round, when you must move and don't get to make a full attack.
Also, please take care to read my statements a little closer. I simply said blasting works well, not better or more efficiently. My eldritch knight keeps two haste's mem'd, only one fireball. Blasting has its advantages, that's all.
|
|
Evasion is one of the key abilities of the rogue like classes. As a DM I like having those abilities actually mean something even if it means that the NPC blaster sorceror is pretty ineffective at killing the rogues. The blaster spams fireball, etc and for some reason those pesky kids keep dodging the effects of the spell.
I do want to clarify that I absolutely love when my players abilities are effective. I was merely suggesting ways to shake up the norm. I only use things like that when it makes sense for the enemy to have figured them out, as you mentioned.
I recall a time when the party returned to an area they had been ambushed by archers. The bard surprised my by pulling out Dimension Door to drop the fighters right behind the archers. I was so pleased I gave them complete surprise. Poor archers got massacred to the last man. >:)
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
|
Based on my experiences playing an evoker once upon a time: Most blasts have this over most other spells: save for HALF. So even if they save you still did something, even if it was small. Half damage on a maximized or empowered fireball is still nothing to sneeze at. Evasion's the caveat to that, natch, but 90% of stuff you fight doesn't have evasion, unless you happen to be running in an adventure to take down a thieves'/assassins' guild or evil monastery.
Knowledge skills help you get by resistances by telling you what the monster's NOT resistant to. For sorcs in particular, know spells with different energy types so you can match your firepower to the enemy's weaknesses.
Also for sorcs: you don't necessarily have to have every blasting spell. Having 1 good blast spell at each spell level is a good thing to shoot for, but you don't really need even that. Don't neglect your defenses, but try to take multipurpose spells. Fly and greater invisibility are GREAT for a blaster sorc.
The key to good area-of-effect blasting is making the terrain work for YOU. Find places where your heavies can block off a passage and you can lob AoEs past them into an open area where the badguys are. You want to concentrate as many of them as you can in as small an area as possible (a kill zone), then nuke the bejeezus out of that area. Walls and other battlefield controls can help with that. Spells like entangle and web can help ensure the enemy doesn't escape your kill zone.
The fewer enemies you're fighting, the less valuable AoE blasts become. If you're only fighting a single boss-type monster, rays and single-target blasts are usually more efficient. Enervation is really a debuff, but it sure feels like a blast when you use it. It's great for bosses and it stacks mercilessly.
A circular wall of fire, radiating inward, is a death trap for most monsters. If they come out, they'll be damaged and ripe for your melee/archer types to pick off.
Really, I think the most essential thing to playing a blasting caster is to remember your role: to apply firepower decisively. Use your AoEs to weaken or destroy the minion hordes. Use single-target blasts and rays to quickly remove key enemy individuals such as casters and archers. It's almost always better to empowered scorching ray the monster that's about to eat your buddy than it is to try to heal him. Don't feel like you have to spam big blasts every round. Let your party set up the right conditions for you to lay the atomic smack down and then do it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I enjoy blasting too! We need a support group.
I know this is not a guide, but I would strongly consider being sorcerer with arcane bloodline and taking a familiar. Then you can take improved familiar and get something capable of wielding a wand for an extra low level nuke every round. This is something I did in 2nd edition with my very first character, he had a trained monkey familiar who could wield my wands of fireball or lightning bolt. Twas awesome.
How is doing less damage to more foes, in a way that doesn't remove foes from the fight, "saving" damage?Hypothetical situation:
Wizard goes first and blasts the entire group of enemies. His two allies, both archers, FRA the survivors. Previous to the blast, the enemies needed 3 arrows on average to kill. After the blast, they only need 1.
Here, the blast acted as a force multiplier, increasing the kill-efficiency of the archers by x3. Using haste, the total kill rate would be unchanged.
Granted these situations are few and far between, but they DO occur.
I will submit Horrid Wilting. One of my favorite AoE spells. 30ft radius blast. You get to pick which creatures are not effected, and hits on a fortitude save which bypasses evasion and improved evasion.
Divine Blasting - The only problem is that all the really good stuff is really high level, but a lot of the higher level divine spells do a flat 10 damage per level.
Sound burst - Only 1d8 damage, but has a chance to stun, not bad for level 2.
Holy Smite - A little weak on damage, but Will save, and can blind for 1 round. Bonus points, it doesn't effect good creatures.
Flame Strike - Similar damage to cone of cold, and half the damage ignores resistance/immunities. Druids get this spell at level 4.
Slay Living/Harm - Require touch attacks, but both of these spells can put on some major hurt to a single target. If you know undead are coming, memorize heal instead.
Inflict XXX Wounds Mass - These spells really dont hit all that hard, but you can pick targets, and they hit on will saves.
Firestorm - A decent blast that can catch targets on fire for more damage.
Implosion - 10 damage/level to 1 target/round for 1 round/2 levels.
Mass Heal vs undead - 15ft radius blast hits for 10 damage/level.
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
Evasion is one of the key abilities of the rogue like classes. As a DM I like having those abilities actually mean something even if it means that the NPC blaster sorceror is pretty ineffective at killing the rogues. The blaster spams fireball, etc and for some reason those pesky kids keep dodging the effects of the spell.I do want to clarify that I absolutely love when my players abilities are effective. I was merely suggesting ways to shake up the norm. I only use things like that when it makes sense for the enemy to have figured them out, as you mentioned.
I recall a time when the party returned to an area they had been ambushed by archers. The bard surprised my by pulling out Dimension Door to drop the fighters right behind the archers. I was so pleased I gave them complete surprise. Poor archers got massacred to the last man. >:)
A feat I had in an old 3.5 campaign was this:
|
You know, a couple of feats could be added to the APG to make blasters a little more viable: 1) Energy Substitution from 3.5 (pick Fire, Cold, Acid, or Electricity; when you cast a damaging spell with one of these descriptors you can instead have the damage match the type you chose when you took this feat) and 2) Insert Name of new Feat Choose Fire, Cold, Acid or Electricity; when you cast a damaging spell having the chosen descriptor, you increase the damage die by 1 step (or do +1hp/die).
|
|
Ya know, I would make Elemental Sorcerer a choice for anyone desiring blasting power. Earth and Air elements are great, since Lightning and Acid are resisted TOO often, and the Bloodline Arcana energy substitution of your element is AMAZING when you've got a bunch of fire spells prepared and come across a Fire Elemental.
Fireball CL5 (avg 17) vs 10 Ftr4 with Con14 (avg 34 hp) sounds bad, but if all fail the save you just did 50% enemy hp in one round, which is likely a better outcome than putting 2 to sleep or slightly weakening them with a stinking cloud (since they will likely make those fort saves) or casting Haste so your allied can hit them more.
You know. . .10 lv4 Fighters is a CR 9 or so encounter. It's in that annoying gap between 9 and 10, due to the number of creatures.
Now, if this were a lv6 Sorcerer, that suddenly becomes 6d6 damage. Add another 6 for the proper bloodline, and now you're doing an average of 27 damage. Huh. That's only 7 less than those monsters' HP.
Why not just a buff n blaster? Buff in rounds 1 & 2 then blast the crap out of them