Curious what the thought on this is. If you take a single level of sorcerer then take several levels of Oracle, take the Lore mystery and the Arcane Archivist revelation, you meet the prereqs of Mystic Theurge. Granted, this method would severely limit your arcane spell casting, but it lets you into the Mystic Theurge prestige class by only multi-classing for a single level.
Any way this could be a problem or exploited?
I would say no. As you must be ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells.The ability grants you the power to convert say a 3rd level slot into "one" single 2nd level spell.
You do not have the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells. You would have to be 11th level anyhow, but I would not allow it.
I would say no. As you must be ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells.The ability grants you the power to convert say a 3rd level slot into "one" single 2nd level spell.
You do not have the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells. You would have to be 11th level anyhow, but I would not allow it.
It says "Your experience with lore-filled tomes has granted you the ability to cast arcane spells as if they were on your spell list."
Bolded for emphasis.
Again you are not an arcane caster. It allows you just once per day to exchange a higher slot for it. You can not cast 2nd level arcane spells. You can use a 3rd level slot to cast a 2nd level spell, or a 2nd level slot to cast a 1st but you can not cast a 2nd level spell in a 2nd level slot.
If you can not use the spell level in the spell slot you do not have the ability to cast that level of spell. You simply are not a 2nd level arcane caster. Your a caster that can once a day cast an arcane spell.
It is not the same thing. You are not an Arcane caster.
Again you are not an arcane caster. It allows you just once per day to exchange a higher slot for it. You can not cast 2nd level arcane spells. You can use a 3rd level slot to cast a 2nd level spell, or a 2nd level slot to cast a 1st but you can not cast a 2nd level spell in a 2nd level slot.
If you can not use the spell level in the spell slot you do not have the ability to cast that level of spell. You simply are not a 2nd level arcane caster. Your a caster that can once a day cast an arcane spell.
It is not the same thing. You are not an Arcane caster.
I understand what you are saying completely, however interpreting as such isn't the same as literal RAW.
It is really, a one time use ability at a higher level is not the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells. You simply are not an arcane caster.
I'm gonna have to disagree seeker. The requirement just says the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells. The Arcane Archivist ability specifically says that it grants you the ability to cast arcane spells, and if you're high enough level to cast 3rd level spells (which you would be as an 11th level oracle), then you're casting 2nd level arcane spells, regardless of what spell slot they're in.
Do I see this as a problem or something that could be exploited? No, not at all. In fact I'd say it's a very much sub-par way to get there.
Eh up to you but his arcane caster level would not advance as he does not have one.He is not an arcane caster he just has an ability to swap one of his spells for an arcane one.
Edit: I am really not sue what is to gain from taking the PRC this way as he has no arcane caster level to advance.
Eh up to you but his arcane caster level would not advance as he does not have one.
Umm.... yeah he would. Read the OP again.
If you take a single level of sorcerer then take several levels of Oracle...
ah I see that now. Forgot about that. I myself still say no. he simply is not a 2nd level arcane caster.
Edit:
This is like the bonded item do I count as a spontaneous caster thing all over again. Official answer for that one was also no.
2nd edit:
Another thing if you did allow it all he arcane spells would need to burn 1 slot higher to use, as that is how you got into the PRC
ah I see that now. Forgot about that. I myself still say no. he simply is not a 2nd level arcane caster.
Edit:
This is like the bonded item do I count as a spontaneous caster thing all over again. Official answer for that one was also no.
The requirement isn't "2nd level arcane caster" (which would actually be 3rd or 4th level to be able to cast a 2nd level spell anyway). It's simply the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells.
I disagree, it's a loophole to get into something you do no meet the requirements for. The very same as the bonded item thing. I say you'll get the same answer as well.
As I pointed out above you do not have the caster level. How does that work out? your sorc 1 gets now gets 2 level 1 spells he can not cast as because the loophole you used needs level 2 slots to cast them?
really you simply could not cast your arcane spells without burning your oracle spells. You used that loophole you would be held to it. Its a very messy loophole and easy to see it was never meant like that.
2nd edit:Another thing if you did allow it all he arcane spells would need to burn 1 slot higher to use, as that is how you got into the PRC
Again I disagree. That would be like saying that if you got into Mystic Theurge through your Wizard levels, you wouldn't be able to use it to increase your sorcerer caster level. That's why it says to choose which class to increase the caster level of.
He would be able to use the Mystic Theurge spellcasting ability to increase his sorcerer levels despite the fact that it was Wizard (or Oracle in the case of the actual OP discussion) that got him into the class.
Don't you have to be 11th level before you can select the Arcane Archivist revelation?
Don't you have to be 11th level before you can select the Arcane Archivist revelation?
Which has already been covered in the discussion.
It's extremely sub-par (though I don't agree at ALL that you would have to burn Oracle spells for it) for sure, but RAW would allow it by every angle that I can see.
2nd edit:Another thing if you did allow it all he arcane spells would need to burn 1 slot higher to use, as that is how you got into the PRC
Again I disagree. That would be like saying that if you got into Mystic Theurge through your Wizard levels, you wouldn't be able to use it to increase your sorcerer caster level. That's why it says to choose which class to increase the caster level of.
ah but your sorcerer ability did not get you in. Your ability to burn your oracle slots did. So you can not cast 2nd level spells unless you burn them or any spells until you arcane caster level reaches it. even then all your arcane spells would use up a slot 1 level higher.
You choose that. Your entree into the class depended on a 1 level shift. so all your arcane spells need to use 1 slot higher or you simply can not cast them. oth use l1v1l 1, 1st use level 2 , 2nd use level 3 and so on. you choose that
Don't you have to be 11th level before you can select the Arcane Archivist revelation?Which has already been covered in the discussion.
It's extremely sub-par (though I don't agree at ALL that you would have to burn Oracle spells for it) for sure, but RAW would allow it by every angle that I can see.
RAW would allow it only while burning slots 1 level higher for all arcane spells. You can not pick and choose which rules to use and which ones to not use if your use RAW to use a loophole
I can't really see a way this can be exploited or problematic...however, for the sake of argument and for clarification, perhaps the wording of Arcane Archivist should be rewritten to exclude "the ability to cast arcane spells".
2nd edit:Another thing if you did allow it all he arcane spells would need to burn 1 slot higher to use, as that is how you got into the PRC
Again I disagree. That would be like saying that if you got into Mystic Theurge through your Wizard levels, you wouldn't be able to use it to increase your sorcerer caster level. That's why it says to choose which class to increase the caster level of.
ah but your sorcerer ability did not get you in. Your ability to burn your oracle slots did. So you can not cast 2nd level spells unless you burn them or any spells until you arcane caster level reaches it. even then all your arcane spells would use up a slot 1 level higher.
You choose that. Your entree into the class depended on a 1 level shift. so all your arcane spells need to use 1 slot higher or you simply can not cast them. oth use l1v1l 1, 1st use level 2 , 2nd use level 3 and so on. you choose that
Then the Mystic Theurge class wouldn't say to choose which arcane caster class to increase the spellcasting of at each level. It would say "You can only increase the level of the arcane spellcasting class that gave you the prerequisites for the Mystic Theurge class" which it does not. I'm not picking and choosing rules, you're making rules up.
More then likely it will count as divine no matter what list it comes from, like a bards CLW count as arcane
More then likely it will count as divine no matter what list it comes from, like a bards CLW count as arcane
Except that the ability specifically says it give you the ability to cast arcane spells. It doesn't say that the arcane spell is divine, it merely says the ability to cast arcane spells.
Then the Mystic Theurge class wouldn't say to choose which arcane caster class to increase the spellcasting of at each level. It would say "You can only increase the level of the arcane spellcasting class that gave you the prerequisites for the Mystic Theurge class" which it does not. I'm not picking and choosing rules, you're making rules up.
But you are. You cast arcane spells for meeting the prequest as on slot higher. Meaning any arcane spell you cast from advancement in the PRC would use the same style as your requirement.
You did not meet the requirement as a sorcerer, but as an oracle casting arcane spells in a higher level slot. so yes while you could cast as a level 1 sorcerer any advancement in arcane caster level from the PRC would use the same style you used to gain the PRC
You are picking and choosing.
Then the Mystic Theurge class wouldn't say to choose which arcane caster class to increase the spellcasting of at each level. It would say "You can only increase the level of the arcane spellcasting class that gave you the prerequisites for the Mystic Theurge class" which it does not. I'm not picking and choosing rules, you're making rules up.But you are. You cast arcane spells for meeting the prequest as on slot higher. Meaning any arcane spell you cast from advancement in the PRC would use the same style as your requirement.
You did not meet the requirement as a sorcerer, but as an oracle casting arcane spells in a higher level slot. so yes while you could cast as a level 1 sorcerer any advancement in arcane caster level from the PRC would use the same style you used to gain the PRC
You are picking and choosing.
From the Mystic Theurge class Spells per Day class feature:
"If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day."
That right there is in complete disagreement with your interpretation. If your idea that it has to be the class that qualified you for the class, then it would say so.
Then the Mystic Theurge class wouldn't say to choose which arcane caster class to increase the spellcasting of at each level. It would say "You can only increase the level of the arcane spellcasting class that gave you the prerequisites for the Mystic Theurge class" which it does not. I'm not picking and choosing rules, you're making rules up.But you are. You cast arcane spells for meeting the prequest as on slot higher. Meaning any arcane spell you cast from advancement in the PRC would use the same style as your requirement.
You did not meet the requirement as a sorcerer, but as an oracle casting arcane spells in a higher level slot. so yes while you could cast as a level 1 sorcerer any advancement in arcane caster level from the PRC would use the same style you used to gain the PRC
You are picking and choosing.
The real crux is "the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells". With the character I outlined above, do they have the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells? Yes.
got ya you wish the use the benefit but not use the drawback of such a thing.
That is what you call abusing the system and pure loophole hunting.
got ya you wish the use the benefit but not use the drawback of such a thing.
That is what you call abusing the system and pure loophole hunting.
Isn't the point of a playtest to weed out the loopholes?
Anyway, this ability, as it's currently worded not only applies to Mystic Theurge, but to also Arcane Archer, Arcane Trickster, and the Dragon Disciple.
EDIT: Not to mention further PRCs down the road.
got ya you wish the use the benefit but not use the drawback of such a thing.
That is what you call abusing the system and pure loophole hunting.
I'm not wishing anything. I don't want to use anything. I'm not talking about a character I'm going to play. We're talking about what RAW says, and it disagrees with you.
Show me where it says that you'd have to use the higher level spell slot. Yes, you used Oracle to qualify, but it doesn't say ANYWHERE that your Sorcerer spells (which is the only arcane caster class that the character actually has) would have to follow the same restrictions as your Oracle spells. In fact RAW says you get to choose which class to progress, and says nothing about that progression being hinged on exactly how you met the prerequisites.
I agree, it should be cleared up, but as stands I do not think it meets the requirement as is. As every time something like this comes up the ruling has always been "no"
This is no different then the arcane bond for meeting "cast without preparation" it's the very same thing and officially it does not work.
Chris we'll have to agree to disagree.
More then likely it will count as divine no matter what list it comes from, like a bards CLW count as arcaneExcept that the ability specifically says it give you the ability to cast arcane spells. It doesn't say that the arcane spell is divine, it merely says the ability to cast arcane spells.
Looking again, I correct myself. It says you get to cast a wizard/sorcerer spell as if it were on your spell list
Which WOULD make it a divine spell.
You're right, you wouldn't qualify.
Huh your right, I didn't notice the wording. Heh makes us a bit silly auguring over it when we should have looked closer eh
Huh your right, I didn't notice the wording. Heh makes us a bit silly auguring over it when we should have looked closer eh
Eh, not really. That's what the playtests are for. I'd suggest they put a sentence in the Arcane Archivist ability spelling out that the spell is divine, to avoid just such a confusion in the future.
good point.