If the Oracle's generic class features don't support advice/divination of future events, then Oracle is not a good choice for the class name.
Please consider changing the name from Oracle to something like Mystic - that at least ties in with the various mysteries/revelations which the class acquires, while also referring to the mysterious and varied powers of the divine.
Please, stop beating me!
Call the class whatever you want, I don't think anyone will care.
Oracle is fine.
how bout no.
the mystery parts do some of them grant vision like powers....
after reading them, I agree to a point.
beyond that it needs a pazio explanation on it ,and not a half baked response from the community members saying becuase they thought it was a cool sounding name for a class....anyway I ramble.
No.
The uh, publisher isn't enough of a Paizo explanation?
How about the Creative Director.
The time for changing class names for these six new base classes is VERY long past, alas.
I'm content with them using the name mysteries in the class.
In our games, they will be called Mystics, because that's what the setting calls spontaneous divine casters (Dragonlance).
But I can understand them not wanting to change them name for all the reasons already given.
Don't stress it.....call the class whatever you want ;)
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how bout no.
the mystery parts do some of them grant vision like powers....
after reading them, I agree to a point.
beyond that it needs a pazio explanation on it ,and not a half baked response from the community members saying becuase they thought it was a cool sounding name for a class....anyway I ramble.
The reason Erik's answer is terse is because this has been retread a few times. Either you are late to the party or have somehow not been paying attention over the last 3 months and not seen the dozen+ threads that have talked about names...
So it's not that Erik isn't willing to give an answer, it's that he, or James, or Jason have answered this question plenty of times.
Okay, so my search-fu may have been lacking late last night - I only got one half-decent hit out of about 100 results when I tried using "oracle name" as the search terms in the Advanced Player's Guide Playtest section of the messageboards, and even that one hit was not specific enough.
So yeah, I'll house-rule a name change. The _possibility_ of better vision in the real world/prime material plane still does not an oracle make (in my opinion).
My apologies to the dead horses! :)
I'm still at a loss as to why they felt that Oracle was a good fit for the class. We were told before we even saw the class that it was a good fit, and we'd just have to trust them, and that it wouldn't change but that once we saw the class, it'd make sense and we'd all get it. Obviously, that last part isn't true, or there wouldn't be so many people wondering why the class is called "oracle" when it goes so contrary to common perceptions of the word. Refresh my memory if an indepth reason has been provided, as all I can remember was "We decided it sounded right."
I remember them saying when the classes were announced that the only class whose name might change was the Summoner, and reading the class, it's a name that makes perfect sense.
I'm not asking them to change it. I realize Paizo's dug their heels in and said no unequivocally, even after a fair amount of requests for it throughout the playtest and preceding it. I just want to know the actual, explained reason for that name, so that maybe I can actually understand why it was chosen, and perhaps not be so bugged by it as an ongoing feature of the class.
.....I'm not asking them to change it. I realize Paizo's dug their heels in and said no unequivocally, even after a fair amount of requests for it throughout the playtest and preceding it. I just want to know the actual, explained reason for that name, so that maybe I can actually understand why it was chosen, and perhaps not be so bugged by it as an ongoing feature of the class.
I believe it was because the name "Mighty Morphin Power Rangers" was already taken. That's the rumor, anyway.
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If the Oracle's generic class features don't support advice/divination of future events, then Oracle is not a good choice for the class name.
Please consider changing the name from Oracle to something like Mystic - that at least ties in with the various mysteries/revelations which the class acquires, while also referring to the mysterious and varied powers of the divine.
My sense of oracles (in a generic, non-PF sense) is that they are more intermediaries between deities and the material world, than they are mere prophets (not that prophesy is an uncommon practice for an oracle). Accordingly, this class seems appropriately named.
(And here I told myself that I'd not post any more on this thread ...)
Oxford English Dictionary (Concise form - my desk is too small for all 20+ volumes), first definition of the word "oracle": "a priest or priestess acting as a medium for divine advice or prophecy in classical antiquity."
So where is the Oracle class' "divine advice or prophecy" class feature? And mentioning access to the Augury, Divination and Commune spells is not going to cut it; a Cleric can do that too.
Don't get me wrong. I love the class, particularly the mysteries and oracle's curse. (The Tongues curse in particular harks back to the Oracle of Delphi, arguably the most famous oracle of antiquity.)
C.O.D.'s second definition: "an infallible authority". That's taking a bit too much responsibility onto oneself as a character ...
C.O.D.'s third (and last) definition, labelled as being archaic: "a response or message given by an oracle, especially an ambiguous one." This particular definition doesn't refer to a person, so it is clearly not applicable in a discussion about a class name.
Please Paizo, rename the Wizard.
The class name is plain wrong, it fact it's a major fail.
We all know that the class should be called Magic-User.
I know right?!?!
... I especially don't like that it rhymes with words like 'Lizard' and 'Gizzard.' It's just... offensive. =P
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Please Paizo, rename the Wizard.
The class name is plain wrong, it fact it's a major fail.
We all know that the class should be called Magic-User.
I know right?!?!
... I especially don't like that it rhymes with words like 'Lizard' and 'Gizzard.' It's just... offensive. =P
And don't get me started about the Rouge, the class features have nothing to do with being red!
The druid name's wrong, too! Druid are knowledgeable poets who preserve history by oral tradition, not some basket cases running around the woods dressed up as a bear!
And the monk! No ability related to brewing wheat beer!
And why does the paladin class have no rule restricting them to being just a dozen of them at a time?
And elves! Elves aren't tall creatures, they're little fairy things that live in springs!
This cannot go on! When will this mislabelling stop?
Go back in and look at your post. Did somebody hide the magic word in code that you quoted?
Hey, who messed my avatar ?
Anarchy Smurf is a master of guerilla tactics!
Hey, who messed my avatar ?Species 692 is a master of guerrilla tactics!
We have found them to be useful
Oxford English Dictionary (Concise form - my desk is too small for all 20+ volumes), first definition of the word "oracle": "a priest or priestess acting as a medium for divine advice or prophecy in classical antiquity."
So where is the Oracle class' "divine advice or prophecy" class feature? And mentioning access to the Augury, Divination and Commune spells is not going to cut it; a Cleric can do that too.
Don't get me wrong. I love the class, particularly the mysteries and oracle's curse. (The Tongues curse in particular harks back to the Oracle of Delphi, arguably the most famous oracle of antiquity.)
in their mystery class feature,( I will be using the fire oracle,since I like this one as an example):
Gaze of Flames (Su)You can see through fire, fog, and smoke without penalty as long as the light is sufficient to allow you to see normally. At 7th level, you can gaze through any source of flame within 10 feet per oracle level, as if using clairvoyance. You can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to your oracle level, but these rounds do not need to be consecutive.
okay how it says it to me, is that you can gaze into a fire or a lit torch and look out through another some x feet away per level.
rpwise It sounds fun.....its no seer / prophesy person, but to a minor extent...
I'd still like their reasoning though, so I can understand their point of view.
You've got a point there, and I agree that it's also good RP flavour. (As are most, if not all of the similar revelations in the other mysteries.)
On the other hand, I do think that those particular abilities are too well-buried in the class features description. It looks as though just one revelation in each mystery type is related to oracular activity (Augury, Clairvoyance, Scry, etc.), so theoretically an Oracle character could simply choose not to take the "oracular" revelation particular to his mystery. In that case, I would be inclined to house-rule that an Oracle character _must_ take the oracular revelation at L 1. In which case I won't complain so much about the Oracle name. :)
If the Oracle's generic class features don't support advice/divination of future events, then Oracle is not a good choice for the class name.
Please consider changing the name from Oracle to something like Mystic - that at least ties in with the various mysteries/revelations which the class acquires, while also referring to the mysterious and varied powers of the divine.
I guess Paizo just has the problem of horribly naming classes. I, too, have requested for some of the class names to be changed. Oracle was the first. I also wanted Inquisitor changed to Avenger. Alchemist seems "ok", I feel as if it could've been named something better but it works for now. Summoner is fine.
As for Cavalier and Witch, I honestly do not understand what role they're supposed to have or what reason they were even created. The Witch is just a spellcaster with hexes, could've been done with a prestige class. The Cavalier already has a prestige class for it (not-Paizo owned, but majoriy of players use the one from the Complete Warrior). And the class just seems to me like a Paladin without the spells and the paladin code. Fortunately it is different enough from the Knight class in Player's Handbook 2, which was what I was worried about.
I guess Paizo just has the problem of horribly naming classes. I, too, have requested for some of the class names to be changed. Oracle was the first. I also wanted Inquisitor changed to Avenger. Alchemist seems "ok", I feel as if it could've been named something better but it works for now. Summoner is fine.
As for Cavalier and Witch, I honestly do not understand what role they're supposed to have or what reason they were even created. The Witch is just a spellcaster with hexes, could've been done with a prestige class. The Cavalier already has a prestige class for it (not-Paizo owned, but majoriy of players use the one from the Complete Warrior). And the class just seems to me like a Paladin without the spells and the paladin code. Fortunately it is different enough from the Knight class in Player's Handbook 2, which was what I was worried about.
It was really only the Oracle name which drew my attention; the other five classes don't seem that poorly named to me.
I understand that many will be mixing 3.x and PF (I certainly will be doing so) but Paizo cannot do so in their own published materials. For example, if they want a Cavalier-type character in a module, they may not take the class from the Complete Warrior (as that book is not OGL). In addition, the Complete Warrior will eventually become unavailable as WotC is no longer supporting earlier editions. Enter the Advanced Player's Guide with its six new base classes, including Paizo's own take on the Cavalier.
The various orders of Cavaliers actually appeal to me, as they run the gamut of "knightly virtues" from braggadocio to true chivalry, from loyal (or arrogant) musketeers to pious servants of the church, to defenders of the common people. (Yes, I know that musketeers are technologically out of place in this discussion, but in Dumas they certainly fit the romantic cavalier archetype.)
Really is Oracle any worse a fitting name then cleric?
I mean cleric is nothing like the class, they don't wear armor, not warroirs, or mass healers or anything. The name has zero in common with the class other then you have a god. Clerics unlike the oracle were not magic users at all
so really is it any worse?
Really is Oracle any worse a fitting name then cleric?
I mean cleric is nothing like the class, they don't wear armor, not warroirs, or mass healers or anything. The name has zero in common with the class other then you have a god. Clerics unlike the oracle were not magic users at all
so really is it any worse?
Irrelevant comparison. Clerics have been called the same thing since OD&D (since 1974; it's actually the ONLY class from OD&D that is still called by the same name. The others were "Fighting Man", "Thief", and "Magic User"), so they actually are what people expect them to be, more or less. Oracles are a completely new class, and their ability set does NOT mesh with the popular culture image of an Oracle.
It doesn't matter because Paizo decided not to change the name, but it's not a sound comparison regardless.
Getting a bit off-topic here:
When I think of a "Cleric", my default mental image is that of one of the warrior-clerics who did put on armour and do their best to trounce "the heathens". The concept of a "warrior-bishop" is not unknown in the history of some European countries. (For those who want political correctness: this reference is in no way a sign of support for crusades undertaken in various parts of the world.)
If one wants to play a less warlike Cleric, one could always go for the Cloistered Cleric alternative in Unearthed Arcana (which I think made it to the 3.5 SRD).
I have been barking up this tree for awhile
I have been barking up this tree for awhileAny luck?
This response from the publisher btw is kinda prickish and mean-spirited.. if that's the way they are going to talk to us then I think we should not support their company.
It just really rubs me the wrong way that the publisher would respond in such a fashion.. the "No." from him earlier was more than sufficient and should have been the last thing he added. As customers and players we then have the right to discuss and criticize their decisions and should not have to take derisive replies from the people we support with our $s.
If the Oracle's generic class features don't support advice/divination of future events, then Oracle is not a good choice for the class name.
Please consider changing the name from Oracle to something like Mystic - that at least ties in with the various mysteries/revelations which the class acquires, while also referring to the mysterious and varied powers of the divine.
Come on, put your thinking cap on. This is all about trademarks and preventing other RPG companies from copyrighting the goods. It has nothing to do with making an Oracle an actual oracle.
This response from the publisher btw is kinda prickish and mean-spirited.. if that's the way they are going to talk to us then I think we should not support their company.
It just really rubs me the wrong way that the publisher would respond in such a fashion.. the "No." from him earlier was more than sufficient and should have been the last thing he added. As customers and players we then have the right to discuss and criticize their decisions and should not have to take derisive replies from the people we support with our $s.
I'm not trying to be an apologist, really, but hear me out.
This isn't a new issue, and it's been talked out a lot. Honest.
I grant you, new people come to these boards all the time and maybe we regulars forget that, and we shouldn't. We should be patient that sometimes folks just don't realize that the topic has been exhausted.
I don't know Mr. Mona personally, but I do know he appreciates his customers and he and his staff care deeply about giving people a quality product. I met him once at Gencon while he was supervising an author signing and he really didn't have any time to talk. I just mentioned I was a super subscriber and thanked him for the products his company put out. I intended to let him go, but he made the time to at least shake my hand and thank me for my business and apologized that he didn't have more time.
These people care about their customers. Honest.
Maybe he was terse, but there's been a lot of bickering about this topic. The decision is made, and it's so easy to correct in one's own private home game. We're really not tied to what they put in the rule book.
This response from the publisher btw is kinda prickish and mean-spirited.. if that's the way they are going to talk to us then I think we should not support their company.
It just really rubs me the wrong way that the publisher would respond in such a fashion.. the "No." from him earlier was more than sufficient and should have been the last thing he added. As customers and players we then have the right to discuss and criticize their decisions and should not have to take derisive replies from the people we support with our $s.
I'm not trying to be an apologist, really, but hear me out.
This isn't a new issue, and it's been talked out a lot. Honest.
I grant you, new people come to these boards all the time and maybe we regulars forget that, and we shouldn't. We should be patient that sometimes folks just don't realize that the topic has been exhausted.
I don't know Mr. Mona personally, but I do know he appreciates his customers and he and his staff care deeply about giving people a quality product. I met him once at Gencon while he was supervising an author signing and he really didn't have any time to talk. I just mentioned I was a super subscriber and thanked him for the products his company put out. I intended to let him go, but he made the time to at least shake my hand and thank me for my business and apologized that he didn't have more time.
These people care about their customers. Honest.
Maybe he was terse, but there's been a lot of bickering about this topic. The decision is made, and it's so easy to correct in one's own private home game. We're really not tied to what they put in the rule book.
That's great, so he shook your hand and now he can be an ass on the boards just because he eye-rolled when he saw yet another thread about his Class name. He should have kept his eye-rolling and his typed response to himself. He added nothing constructive and was merely rubbing it in that there was actually nothing anyone could do or say about the matter.. he wins.. True enough.. but no way to talk to people who you want to pay your mortgage.
Director of Game Development
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Good points, Watcher. To this I'll add that the same argument has been made for the past six months since the announcement. There have been posts and posts worth of discussion regarding this point and plenty of reasons given for and against. Paizo stated that these names were mostly locked in after the announcement was made, they did listen to arguments on the contrary, in addition to opening up their entire design to user review and playtest.
The names are what they are, and as a few folks have mentioned upthread, are as apt as cleric, monk, and rogue when it comes to pedantic vocabulary.
Good points, Watcher. To this I'll add that the same argument has been made for the past six months since the announcement. There have been posts and posts worth of discussion regarding this point and plenty of reasons given for and against. Paizo stated that these names were mostly locked in after the announcement was made, they did listen to arguments on the contrary, in addition to opening up their entire design to user review and playtest.
The names are what they are, and as a few folks have mentioned upthread, are as apt as cleric, monk, and rogue when it comes to pedantic vocabulary.
Wow.. the defense of the publisher is awesome .. apparently the "Forum Elite" kowtow to and revere anyone with a Paizo Title here. They are Gods.
They can Do No Wrong.Except regardless of how many times threads have been made and how many times its been discussed.. his response as a representative of Paizo is still out of line, inappropriate and condescending.
eh not at all. You have what less then 10 posts. You really do not know enough about either poster to know if that was a joke a friendly jab or an insult.
I mean welcome and all man, but that came off as friendly jab not insult just as MerrikCale tone came off the same way. I think your seeing something that was not there and was not intended
eh not at all. You have what less then 10 posts. You really do not know enough about either poster to know if that was a joke a friendly jab or an insult.
I mean welcome and all man, but that came off as friendly jab not insult just as MerrikCale tone came off the same way. I think your seeing something that was not there and was not intended
And most of those 10 post are HERE in THIS thread.. I am a Lurker, one of the Thousands of gamers who Read and Watch.. but don't bother to post. His reply Offended ME I don't care WHO he was talking to. It comes of as condescending.. to ME
Period... The End.I am sure I am not the only person with 10 or less or No posts that could have been offended by the publisher responding to a customer in such a way. The nameless readers WAY out number the frequent posters and if his company relied on just the "Forum Elite" to survive.. IT WOULD NOT.
So thanks for YOUR condescending attitude.. but you can keep it.
I still say he should not have made that Post,it was in bad taste and showed poor judgment at best... callous disregard for his customers at worst.
I'm sorry if I came off as insincere. <shrug>
I do however stand by what I said. Please note that I didn't attack your point of view, or you personally. I just suggested that there might be more to this particular situation than you might otherwise know.
In return you took a big ol' dump on me and Daigle. :D
That's okay. Consider it a welcome to the boards gift. Sincerely, I hope you find a better experience in another thread.
Thin shell man, didn't think I came off as condescending, but it was a repley to someone else, not you, it said nothing insulting. If the man it was aimed at is not insulted I don't see the issue.
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Director of Game Development
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Wow.. the defense of the publisher is awesome .. apparently the "Forum Elite" kowtow to and revere anyone with a Paizo Title here. They are Gods.
They can Do No Wrong.Except regardless of how many times threads have been made and how many times its been discussed.. his response as a representative of Paizo is still out of line, inappropriate and condescending.
Hey man, I'm not trying to be condescending or suck up to anyone here. While Erik may be brunt from time to time, I assure you he is a businessman and has no intention to piss off his clientele.
I've been a member of these boards for a long time, and one of the things I was concerned about when Paizo started talking about producing the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game is that the new influx of fans and customers might feel left out or without a solid voice once these messageboards got tons more traffic than usual. Some of the old schoolers here have a very conversational and familiar tone with each other, as well as with the staff, that might seem off-putting to some people.
That said, unless Merrik takes offense, we should take this as just some gentle ribbing.
I'm sorry if I came off as insincere. <shrug>
I do however stand by what I said. Please note that I didn't attack your point of view, or you personally. I just suggested that there might be more to this particular situation than you might otherwise know.
In return you took a big ol' dump on me and Daigle. :D
That's okay. Consider it a welcome to the boards gift. Sincerely, I hope you find a better experience in another thread.
Well I took Seekeroflights' reply to be dismissive of my feelings and point of view, therefore I fired back at HIM.
I have little issue with Watcher or Daigle.. except to say that I disagree with anyone who states I have a thin skin and haven't been around long enough to know what was meant..
You see the point is it doesn't matter what was meant, it doesn't matter of Merickdale and the publisher are BBQ buddies that chit chat every night on the phone and banter endlessly. As a representaive of Paizo. all his responses should be as Neutral and inoffensive as possible. You wanna trade flame blows with an internet bully? Make a different name to post with. He abused his position by using it to belittle and mock someone else in a public forum.
If ANYONE could have found his response curt, dismissive or condescending... he shouldn't have made it.. period. At least not as Mr. Publisher, representative of Paizo. He has definitely sullied the companies fun and friendly gamer persona by showing his ass.
He could be a saint in real life but that comment was still crappy and unnecessary.
And it made ME feel like he was dismissive of a customers opinion.
THAT is all that really matters.. he should simply not have replied at all if he had nothing constructive to add.
So when can we get back to demanding name changes? This thread has gone horribly off topic. :-/
I agree completely with Lord Onyx. Publishers should read every single suggestions on these boards and respond to them completely individually and maintain a certain level of professionally. I don't care how many times these comments have been made, nor how unreasonable they might be, the staff here at Paizo should always be courteous and kind to all potential customers. Have you not heard that the customer is always right Mr Mona?
Don't get me wrong though! We the general public are under no obligation to behave ourselves! We're allowed to make vague general complaints, be as rude or as snippy as we want, threaten boycotts . . . I mean we're not being paid to be here! But you Mr Mona . . . Lord Onyx and I expected better from you! For shame!
Oh your cute.. very funny.. BRAVO Mr. Comedian.
"We're allowed to make vague general complaints, be as rude or as snippy as we want, threaten boycotts" - We ARE actually.. allowed to do just that.
"Publishers should read every single suggestions on these boards and respond to them completely individually" - OR they should only read them.. perhaps even completely ignoring the 19th incarnation of a subject or thread, and only comment when they have something CONSTRUCTIVE to add.
" and maintain a certain level of professionally." - OR perhaps Professionalism but otherwise QFT