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So, if you gain 20 from rage, and you lose 25, you lose another 20 when then rage is done? That's silly.
Yes. Yes it is, isn't it?
Reasoning behind is that the barbarian doesn't "really" have that extra 20 hp, but while he has the enhanced con going (ie: rage effect) he *acts* like he does ... but as soon as over, he keels over ... dead.
Thus - the thread suggestions that keep popping up.
Silly? Certainly not "fun" at the least - not for me and many others as well, IMO.
Besides, Barbarians aren't suppose to be defined by their rage, it is just another power they can pull on when things are getting bleak.
The vast majority of the post was already stated - several times in this thread. No one contests the "how" of function.
What's in contention is if it is "fun" or not to have a class feature that can literally kill you (or if such a minor boost in HP is worth much in the first place).
For those still posting, the answer is a resounding "No" on that front.
I'm just going to respond to that last bit of your saying rage is "not" the defining feature.
It gets 3 step progressions - the last as "capstone" in placement. It has "rage powers" in an amount equal to fighter's feat progressions ... how can a class THAT focused upon an ability NOT be all about that ability?
I think you need to re-evaluate that thought a little bit ...
For my money, I'm still going with DR bonus in rage vs. the crazy HP thing. Of course, I'm also vamping up my barbarian quite a bit anyway, so ... yeah.
So, if you gain 20 from rage, and you lose 25, you lose another 20 when then rage is done? That's silly.@Lying Bastard: Yes - that's actually how it works by the RAW. No one's making it up out of no where. You actually DO lose those bonus HP's as soon as the rage is over (ie: if you gain 20, and lost 25 somehow, you're down -5 into your own hp.) Now take a serious beating where you're down in the 20's (for argument) and you then come out of the rage, you also lose the 20 hp's from the rage bonus - follow? So you're not in the 20's, you're in the single digits somewhere. It just gets worse as you get more bonus HP's as well - the HP's that kept you "hangin' in" will be exactly what kills you as soon as it's over.
It made sense ... it still makes sense - it's just not fun at all to ponder. "Fun Factor" of 0's how it comes off.
That your group just side stepped it, IMO, is an indication that you all know just fine how to have "bad, wrong fun!" That's the ONLY way to do it, honestly. Figure out what makes you all enjoy the game most - and run with it. It's not like the D20 police will come bursting into your apartment and confiscate all your books ...
Its a rather iconic style, that your rage is sustaining you where you would have died a long time ago when you get to epic levels. I like the flavor and mechanics personally.
The confusing part is thinking about them as just hit-points. You have hit-points, and you have damage. +20 hp from rage, 25 damage, -20 hp from rage ending, leaves you with 25 damage.
That said, I'm in full support of two things and will be implementing them in my own games ASAP:
This thing is awesome!!! Thanks, Majuba, for posting it - totally going onto the list of Rage Powers in some form for my games!!! {Not sure that it does much to "fix" anything beyond survival - but it's a MUST HAVE rage power with the default function of rage anyway.} I'll probably tweak the level req for it, though.*Majuba wrote
Rage Power: Hardy Survivor (Ex): Whenever the barbarian falls unconscious while in a rage (typically by falling below 0 hp) and would be dying or dead, she is instead stable at -1 hp. Any affects that grant regeneration or fast healing do not operate while the barbarian is fatigued from raging. A barbarian must be at least 8th level before selecting this rage power.
Thanks, appreciate it. It seems a reasonable strength rage power. Important for those Barbarians who choose to press things to the limit.
The only problem with this is. I am a raging barbarian, I am at 2 hp, I get smashed in the face for 40 damage. Any other player would be dead, but the barbarian is stabilized at -1.
No - that's not a problem. The power says "Whenever a barbarian falls unconscious". A barbarian hit to neg-con is dead, not unconscious. It can result in quite a heal, if knocked well into the negatives.
The biggest problem with temporaries is that for the vast majority of fights, you aren't going to need them to save you from instant-death, you'll just get a nice easy 2/level heal out of it, as a free action. Monk's burning two Ki for Wholeness of Body will glare at you very meanly.
A *non-overpowered*, though I still think unnecessary, solution, would be to convert rage hp, to expended temporaries, at the point of unconsciousness (basically healing that much only when you fall unconscious). Silly, unnecessary, but better than just temporaries IMHO.
The confusing part is thinking about them as just hit-points. You have hit-points, and you have damage. +20 hp from rage, 25 damage, -20 hp from rage ending, leaves you with 25 damage.
That said, I'm in full support of two things and will be implementing them in my own games ASAP:
This thing is awesome!!! Thanks, Majuba, for posting it - totally going onto the list of Rage Powers in some form for my games!!! {Not sure that it does much to "fix" anything beyond survival - but it's a MUST HAVE rage power with the default function of rage anyway.} I'll probably tweak the level req for it, though.*Majuba wrote
Rage Power: Hardy Survivor (Ex): Whenever the barbarian falls unconscious while in a rage (typically by falling below 0 hp) and would be dying or dead, she is instead stable at -1 hp. Any affects that grant regeneration or fast healing do not operate while the barbarian is fatigued from raging. A barbarian must be at least 8th level before selecting this rage power.Thanks, appreciate it. It seems a reasonable strength rage power. Important for those Barbarians who choose to press things to the limit.
The only problem with this is. I am a raging barbarian, I am at 2 hp, I get smashed in the face for 40 damage. Any other player would be dead, but the barbarian is stabilized at -1.No - that's not a problem. The power says "Whenever a barbarian falls unconscious". A barbarian hit to neg-con is dead, not unconscious. It can result in quite a heal, if knocked well into the negatives.
The biggest problem with temporaries is that for the vast majority of fights, you aren't going to need them to save you from instant-death, you'll just get a nice easy 2/level heal out of it, as a free action. Monk's burning two Ki for Wholeness of Body will glare at you very meanly.
A *non-overpowered*, though I still think unnecessary, solution, would be to convert rage hp, to expended temporaries, at the point...
I was specifically referring to the idea for a house rule where a barbarian who goes unconscious and drops out of a rage automatically stabalizes at -1. This would let a barbarian survive things that would kill other players.
Because of automatically stabilizing? True, I suppose others might bleed out.
Its a rather iconic style, that your rage is sustaining you where you would have died a long time ago when you get to epic levels. I like the flavor and mechanics personally.
I think you mean more "sacred cow" is more like. Sure - it's a hold over ... but is it "fun" at all to play the only character type to drop dead using key features of your class?
Not for me - and I suspect for others as well. :shrugs: either way, solutions have been tossed out to fix that style as well if it's you're thing. The problem is a fun factor more than anything else.
Sure it's "iconic" and "reasonable" as explained ... but it is no less lethal for the character on account of either of those things.
Why not just use something like this....
Would this work for said fix?
Upon the end of a rage, if your hitpoints would be higher than -9 you may make a Fortitude Save to Stabilize at -9 hitpoints against a DC of 10+2 for each hitpoint over -9.
This means that if you were at -12 hitpoints, you would be required to make a Fortitude Save DC 16 to Stabilize at -9 Hitpoints.
It's simple, and easy to remember.
Keeps your Barb alive after a rage ends, and it works with the system.
Not to mention seems realistic enough.
Its a rather iconic style, that your rage is sustaining you where you would have died a long time ago when you get to epic levels. I like the flavor and mechanics personally.I think you mean more "sacred cow" is more like. Sure - it's a hold over ... but is it "fun" at all to play the only character type to drop dead using key features of your class?
Not for me - and I suspect for others as well. :shrugs: either way, solutions have been tossed out to fix that style as well if it's you're thing. The problem is a fun factor more than anything else.
Sure it's "iconic" and "reasonable" as explained ... but it is no less lethal for the character on account of either of those things.
Meh, just one for drama I guess. No reason you can't on your last turn chug a cure spell. Just have to be sure to get die hard.
Everyone's familiar with Lodoss War, right?
I'd rather see my barbarian as THAT guy in the series. The one possessed by the spirit of "hueri" or whatever (I think?) now THAT's the fun way to rage and be a barbarian. Guy was DEVASTATING powerful to the point that the other combat types were just trying to get the freakin' hell away from him.
Currently there is NONE of that feel to the class. I'd like to put some "oompf" back into the class since it's really not measuring up to other classes anymore.
Everyone's familiar with Lodoss War, right?
I'd rather see my barbarian as THAT guy in the series. The one possessed by the spirit of "hueri" or whatever (I think?) now THAT's the fun way to rage and be a barbarian. Guy was DEVASTATING powerful to the point that the other combat types were just trying to get the freakin' hell away from him.
Currently there is NONE of that feel to the class. I'd like to put some "oompf" back into the class since it's really not measuring up to other classes anymore.
I TOTALLY agree!
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There's a feat called diehard that already solves the barbarian rage problem.No, because when the level is greater than CON/2 it results in > -CON when the rage ends...not bleeding out, so stabilization won't help, it's instant death.
The current rules also lead to major meta-gaming, "Uh guys I've got 5HP left..." When the barbarian would say "ROOOOOOOOAAAAR!!!"
Except that you're conscious till your dead so you either get healing while conscious. Die hard keeps you conscious so you don't have the oops I fell unconscious and died effect, so yeah it does solve the problem. Because your barb won't get knocked out till he's dead or fails a will save.
Because of automatically stabilizing? True, I suppose others might bleed out.
That and the wording is bad.
Rage Power: Hardy Survivor (Ex): Whenever the barbarian falls unconscious while in a rage (typically by falling below 0 hp) and would be dying or dead, she is instead stable at -1 hp. Any affects that grant regeneration or fast healing do not operate while the barbarian is fatigued from raging. A barbarian must be at least 8th level before selecting this rage power.
It reads that if I go negative for any reason, I end up stabilized at -1.
Any other class who is at 1 health, and gets hit for 11 damage is at -10 and bleeding out, the barbarian with this power is at -1 and stable.
If the barbarian with this power is at 1 HP, and gets hit for a million damage, they end up stable at -1. I would remove the or dead part.
I would phrase it as "If they would be dying before dropping out of the rage, they ignore the loss of health from dropping out of the rage."
Because of automatically stabilizing? True, I suppose others might bleed out.That and the wording is bad.
Rage Power: Hardy Survivor (Ex): Whenever the barbarian falls unconscious while in a rage (typically by falling below 0 hp) and would be dying or dead, she is instead stable at -1 hp. Any affects that grant regeneration or fast healing do not operate while the barbarian is fatigued from raging. A barbarian must be at least 8th level before selecting this rage power.
It reads that if I go negative for any reason, I end up stabilized at -1.
Any other class who is at 1 health, and gets hit for 11 damage is at -10 and bleeding out, the barbarian with this power is at -1 and stable.
If the barbarian with this power is at 1 HP, and gets hit for a million damage, they end up stable at -1. I would remove the or dead part.
I would phrase it as "If they would be dying before dropping out of the rage, they ignore the loss of health from dropping out of the rage."
For what it's worth - as a "rage power" I like that it'll save you even if you take a bazillion damage points. It's a power! It's a class feature! It's unique to Barbarians only, and it increases survivability if/when you actually hit that "you should be dead now" point. How often even per campaign would/should that come up?
It's not that big a deal, and actually I like it working to save them even from the bazillion hp's - for what that's worth.
:shrugs:
So aside from noticing that it seems the community is divided on this actually being a real problem..
Why did everyone just ignore my idea, I may have made a small error in calculation. However I honestly think that it could be a VERY good idea.
Let me show you with the fixed version.
I'm assuming this is a bigger problem at higher levels, so.
Could just make this an errata to the Barbarian, or a feat or power or whatever.
If a Barbarian's rage ending would kill him, he has the chance to make a Fortitude Save to stabilize at his negative limit. This save is made at a DC of 10 plus 1 for each hitpoint past your negative limit.
Thus a Barbarian with a Constitution of 17 has a negative limit of -16, since they would die at -17. A Barbarian who's rage has ended dropping him to -24 hitpoints would be allowed a Fortitude save against DC 18 to stabilize at -16 hitpoints.
So a level 8 Barb would get 16 plus hitpoints, assuming he has a Con of 17, and he's only got those last 16 hitpoints left, and takes 26 damage.
He would have to make a DC 25 Fort Save to stabilize at -16 hitpoints. If my math is correct. Now a Barb is already getting a +9 to his fort save from the +6 class, and +3 Con, lets add in some great fortitude +2
+11 to fort save, you only need to roll a 14. Seems like quite a nice check for me. I dunno, I can definitely see better ways of balancing this.
Maybe 1 per two as they level up, as damage gets higher. I have no clue.
Perhaps I'm just all meh cause people seemingly tossed my suggestion aside and didn't even say it was good, bad, or meh >.>
ANYWAY.
So aside from noticing that it seems the community is divided on this actually being a real problem..
Why did everyone just ignore my idea, I may have made a small error in calculation. However I honestly think that it could be a VERY good idea.
Let me show you with the fixed version.
I'm assuming this is a bigger problem at higher levels, so.Could just make this an errata to the Barbarian, or a feat or power or whatever.
If a Barbarian's rage ending would kill him, he has the chance to make a Fortitude Save to stabilize at his negative limit. This save is made at a DC of 10 plus 1 for each hitpoint past your negative limit.
Thus a Barbarian with a Constitution of 17 has a negative limit of -16, since they would die at -17. A Barbarian who's rage has ended dropping him to -24 hitpoints would be allowed a Fortitude save against DC 18 to stabilize at -16 hitpoints.
So a level 8 Barb would get 16 plus hitpoints, assuming he has a Con of 17, and he's only got those last 16 hitpoints left, and takes 26 damage.
He would have to make a DC 25 Fort Save to stabilize at -16 hitpoints. If my math is correct. Now a Barb is already getting a +9 to his fort save from the +6 class, and +3 Con, lets add in some great fortitude +2
+11 to fort save, you only need to roll a 14. Seems like quite a nice check for me. I dunno, I can definitely see better ways of balancing this.
Maybe 1 per two as they level up, as damage gets higher. I have no clue.
Perhaps I'm just all meh cause people seemingly tossed my suggestion aside and didn't even say it was good, bad, or meh >.>
ANYWAY.
Interesting concept. Perhaps a feat or rage power, but I like the insta-death effect as is. It builds suspense when you realize you are running on rage alone.
I don't mean to dig up an old thread but I saw this topic and thought I had a reasonable fix.
Barbarians gets 2 rounds of rage per level, with a generous buffer at level 1. What else is 2 per level? The HP gain from rage. Some of the problem with temp HP I've seen in here is that you're gaining a new pool of temp HP every time you rage. A simple alternative would be, the barbarian starts their day with a pool of temp HP equal to the number of rounds of rage they have. These temp HPs are only available during a rage, and during a rage the barbar only may benefit from this pool of temp HP until it is depleated.
So, Maxmin the 10th level barbarian has 25 rounds of rage per day. While raging, he gains +4 str, -2 AC, and a moral bonus to will and fort saves of +2. He also has a pool of 25 temp HP that is active with his fancyrage.
This eliminates the flaw at level 17 of gaining the ability to refresh one's temp HP pool for free, provides a substantial but stable form of bonus hitpoints, and if someone wanted to have a larger pool of rage HP, all they would have to do was take Extra Rage.
I TOTALLY agree!Everyone's familiar with Lodoss War, right?
I'd rather see my barbarian as THAT guy in the series. The one possessed by the spirit of "hueri" or whatever (I think?) now THAT's the fun way to rage and be a barbarian. Guy was DEVASTATING powerful to the point that the other combat types were just trying to get the freakin' hell away from him.
Currently there is NONE of that feel to the class. I'd like to put some "oompf" back into the class since it's really not measuring up to other classes anymore.
That's because Orson was a Frenzied Berserker not a Barbarian :P The Deathless Frenzy, Frenzy, and Supreme Power Attack abilities from that class match up with Lodoss berserkers very well. Not to mention the ability to enter it less than willingly.