Chris Mortika's Haga

[Charles Evans 25]

Hmm. Unless (subsequent to my previous post) you're proposing a niche for the creature where it actually lives as part of a despot's court, at the top of a tower in his palace, or can be contracted to travel with an army as the resident augur? (Making it, at least in divination terms, the local 7th level cleric stand-in.)

[Jared Goodwin]

Chris Mortika wrote:

Charles, look at the comments regarding Slumbering Tsar: in that case, there are no mages capable of casting clairvoyance to help the party. In this case, the king in question needs the Haga precisely because he doesn't have access to any clerics or mages who are powerful enough to cast this. There simply aren't 7th-Level clerics to be had. (Which is why the PCs can't be high level, either.)

This is an issue with the 3.5 / Pathfinder spell system, rather than the Haga in particular.

That idea conflicts with this:

Quote:

Eventually, those pieces grew into huge two-headed birds, who scattered to nest amid the great mountain ranges.

Quote:

Despite the danger, some foolish tyrants and generals are desperate enough to request a haga’s counsel, and send emissaries into the mountains. If the querent is lucky, those emissaries also serve as unwitting sacrifices. A haga so petitioned arrives at the querent’s gates shortly thereafter, speaking its prophesies while artfully suggesting reasonable-sounding actions that lead the listeners to their disgrace and ruin.

Why don't they just seek out an oracle who isn't a jerk?

I get that this is a plot device in monster's clothing. I get that this plot device has a specific role. My problem is that I need to have the villains hold the idiot ball to use this plot device, and that's a dealbreaker for me.

[Chris Mortika]

Jared, I'm afraid I don't understand your point. If by "a jerk" you mean "someone who means ill to good people," then I suppose all villains and most monsters are jerks. Any devil willing to bargain for souls, or efreet willing to negotiate for his services, would likewise be a jerk.

In that sense, jerks are what make adventurers' lives interesting. A world filled with nice polite people and well-adjusted trolls isn't in need of as many heroes to take up the sword and the lance.

And if by "hold the idiot ball", you mean "make a mistake", then, I don't know what to say. The subliminal influence of a Haga isn't well-known at all. To most people, it's an exchange of a blood sacrifice for a foretelling. In any case, legends and folk tales are replete with people making Faustian deals and getting in over their heads.

And as to why the querents don't seek out a high-enough priest or mage, there may not be one within easy travel distance. Imagine Sheriff Avertin of Sandpoint, desperate to find the maniac who'd killed 20 townsfolk. Or picture a general marching his army through the mountains. He may need to stay with his forces, and may not even know where such a person willing to cast such spells might be found. But he knows the basic legends about the Haga.

Or the querent may be too poor to afford a spellcaster's services. To a destitute miner of Baslwief, the sacrifice of an unpleasant co-worker may be a much simpler payment than 300 gold.

Again, if the party is already 9th Level, they've moved past such stories, the same way they've moved past murder mysteries.

[Jared Goodwin]

Chris Mortika wrote:

Jared, I'm afraid I don't understand your point. If by "a jerk" you mean "someone who means ill to good people," then I suppose all villains and most monsters are jerks. Any devil willing to bargain for souls, or efreet willing to negotiate for his services, would likewise be a jerk.

No, I mean an oracle who doesn't eat the messengers and politely tells you what you need to know to the limit of his ability, because it's good business. Failing that, an oracle that can be easily terrorized into doing that, instead of an oracle with invincible plot armor against because plotted against.

I am completely behind "treacherous advisor" as a plot device. That's a good plot device. However, a race of treacherous advisors doesn't work, because eventually word is going to get around that these guys aren't to be trusted. Devils and efreeti have greed- or fear-based agendas, and thus they make great treacherous advisors because they are loyal until some better prospect comes along. Haga, on the other hand, have a "wreck everything" agenda, and thus are avoided by every sane person, good or evil.

[Chris Mortika]

Jared Goodwin wrote:

Haga, on the other hand, have a "wreck everything" agenda, and thus are avoided by every sane person, good or evil.

But not a "wreck-everything" reputation.

[Jared Goodwin]

Chris Mortika wrote:

But not a "wreck-everything" reputation.

You can't rely on simple ignorance to keep people from knowing about their agenda, because they're obscure by nature. They're generally-unknown creatures who live on mountaintops and eat anyone who bothers them. You need to do a bunch of research to even know about them.

Now you have a plot device with a very narrow level niche, and they only work if you give them a Xanatos gambit to wreck everything without getting a reputation for wrecking everything. (That's a bit hard when your only tool to deal with angry customers is just flying away.) Xanatos gambits take a long time to play out, but you don't have a long time in your game because there's a strict clock on their relevance. Haga might be interesting in an E6 game, but Golarion is aggressively not an E6 setting.

[Nicolas Quimby]

I agree with others that the likes of lords and kings in any high-fantasy setting should have access to divination, which is why I (like others) presumed that the haga's 'prophecies' would offer something better or more far-reaching than that, which is why I always assumed its power level would be a lot higher.

Nevertheless, most of your reasoning is pretty solid, and I thank you for sharing it. In a lower-magic region or setting I would gleefully use this creature.

[Kirth Gersen]

Nicolas Quimby wrote:

I agree with others that the likes of lords and kings in any high-fantasy setting should have access to divination, which is why I (like others) presumed that the haga's 'prophecies' would offer something better or more far-reaching than that, which is why I always assumed its power level would be a lot higher.

I'd add an ability to the Haga that obscures other divinations in like a 10-mile radius. That way, when a haga moves in, you're sort of stuck going to it for advice. That ups its power level, but helps secure its niche in high-magic (read: "standard") campaigns.

[Mark Thomas]

Chris, I love that you took a shot at this creature and I'd really love to see what you'd do with this without the CR limit.

Good showing all around.

[Jason Nelson]

Kirth Gersen wrote:

Nicolas Quimby wrote:

I agree with others that the likes of lords and kings in any high-fantasy setting should have access to divination, which is why I (like others) presumed that the haga's 'prophecies' would offer something better or more far-reaching than that, which is why I always assumed its power level would be a lot higher.

I'd add an ability to the Haga that obscures other divinations in like a 10-mile radius. That way, when a haga moves in, you're sort of stuck going to it for advice. That ups its power level, but helps secure its niche in high-magic (read: "standard") campaigns.

This is actually a great idea, though I might make the radius bigger still. Nicely done.

[Chris Mortika]

Jared,

Thank you.

Kirth,

An elegant solution. And that Haga must be beefier, because there are going to be some serious people upset with it.

[Quandary]

Jared Goodwin wrote:

Now you have a plot device with a very narrow level niche, and they only work if you give them a Xanatos gambit to wreck everything without getting a reputation for wrecking everything. (That's a bit hard when your only tool to deal with angry customers is just flying away.) Xanatos gambits take a long time to play out, but you don't have a long time in your game because there's a strict clock on their relevance. Haga might be interesting in an E6 game, but Golarion is aggressively not an E6 setting.

I don't get this. They give accurate divinations, nothing in it suggested they lied about the diviniation. So the querant who gets their advice returns to court, discusses the prophecy and goes about their task. They fail, but not because the prophecy was wrong - it was 100% right - but because they were SUBTLELY (i.e. secretly) manipulated into taking further actions which brougth about their demise. So to everybody else, the haga is the real deal, and the querant stupidly squandered their advantage. Why not? people do stupid things, after all.

All in all, I find this no less problematic than having Devil allies, as the rulers of Cheliax do, and indeed, any Caster with an Imp familiar. Except the DC to know those creatures' malicious agenda is probably alot lower than for the Haga, because it isn't exactly secret, and even if somebody knew that those who called upon the Haga's divinations usually came to a bad end, maybe even seemed 'out of it', they wouldn't necessarily pin it on the Haga. I agree the large-scale aura of anti-divination would be a good touch (and I don't think that necessarily ups the CR alot, either).

Anyhow, sorry to see you didn't make it Chris...

[Kirth Gersen]

Chris Mortika wrote:

And that Haga must be beefier, because there are going to be some serious people upset with it.

Yes, but the good new is, it doesn't need to be Epic-level beefy if you build in a limitation to the obscurement (i.e., if it's defeated by an X level spell or a DC Y caster level check). That way you can peg it at whatever power level you think is appropriate; Mordenkainen will just punch right through the fog and thus not even bother with the Haga, but lower-level people will have to deal with it one way or the other.

[Jared Goodwin]

Quandary wrote:

I don't get this. They give accurate divinations, nothing in it suggested they lied about the diviniation. So the querant who gets their advice returns to court, discusses the prophecy and goes about their task. They fail, but not because the prophecy was wrong - it was 100% right - but because they were SUBTLELY (i.e. secretly) manipulated into taking further actions which brougth about their demise. So to everybody else, the haga is the real deal, and the querant stupidly squandered their advantage. Why not? people do stupid things, after all.

"Hey guys, everyone who ever asked haga for help came to a horrible end. Maybe we should just leave them alone."

Quote:

All in all, I find this no less problematic than having Devil allies, as the rulers of Cheliax do, and indeed, any Caster with an Imp familiar. Except the DC to know those creatures' malicious agenda is probably alot lower than for the Haga, because it isn't exactly secret, and even if somebody knew that those who called upon the Haga's divinations usually came to a bad end, maybe even seemed 'out of it', they wouldn't necessarily pin it on the Haga. I agree the large-scale aura of anti-divination would be a good touch (and I don't think that necessarily ups the CR alot, either).

Except that there are thriving examples of people consulting with devils and benefiting from it. E.g. Cheliax. Devils are perfectly happy to work with people towards the end of spreading misery in the world or reaping souls. A cooperative devil likes you, and has a vested interest in working toward whatever ends you desire. A devil may be an evil ally, but for the unscrupulous he's a powerful, willing, and friendly ally.

Haga, on the other hand, will eat your messengers, send you to your doom, and don't advertise. Why would anyone consult with them instead of devils?

[terraleon]

Jared Goodwin wrote:

"Hey guys, everyone who ever asked haga for help came to a horrible end. Maybe we should just leave them alone."

Side note: Everyone comes to a horrible end. Some just sooner than others. The world the characters operate within is nasty, bloody and brutish. Men draw steel on men for any number of (unreasonable) reasons. Devils wander the land. Dead rise from the grave. You're really going to be able to peg someone's misfortune on the fact that they visited the haga and not the foes that killed them? The guy who landed the killing blow is going to disagree with you.

Jared Goodwin wrote:

Haga, on the other hand, will eat your messengers, send you to your doom, and don't advertise. Why would anyone consult with them instead of devils?

Because a devil is ultimately interested in your soul and your corruption. Once you start dealing with devils, they know you have the potential for later dealings and you're a marked target for future machinations. On the other hand, once you've placated the haga's interest in blood and managed to approach it on a diplomatic basis, the haga doesn't seem to want anything else at all. The cost is front-loaded and decidedly less eternal (at first glance).

-Ben.

[Chris Mortika]

Actually, Jared, you touch on an aspect of 3rd Edition / Pathfinder that I think is worth exploring. A 6th-level bard can have some ridiculous bonus like +18 on her Knowledge (x) roll without going too far out of her way, and can Take Ten on her Knowledge roll.

Should there be some defense --other than being very powerful-- to make someone's weaknesses or unusual abilities less well known to scholars?

FEAT: Obscure - Attempts to research this creature in the field with the appropriate Knowledge roll receive a -6 modifier. This feat can be taken more than once; its effects stack.

[Jared Goodwin]

terraleon wrote:

Because a devil is ultimately interested in your soul and your corruption. Once you start dealing with devils, they know you have the potential for later dealings and you're a marked target for future machinations. On the other hand, once you've placated the haga's interest in blood and managed to approach it on a diplomatic basis, the haga doesn't seem to want anything else at all. The cost is front-loaded and decidedly less eternal (at first glance).

Bear in mind that if you deal with devils and get (to your mind) a good deal, you don't mind further machinations. That's value added. ("You know how we helped you last time? Well, we could also do this...at the low cost of a few sacrifices." "Sure, why not? We've got spare prisoners!") We're already talking about someone who is learned in obscure lore and who values sentient life below accomplishing their goals. Haga are just another alternative to sell your soul to the devil for temporary advantage...when we've already got incredibly detailed, active, and interesting devils for villains to sell their soul to.

And what about efreeti, who aren't interested in your corruption but merely ruthless, and also advertise? This isn't even starting on mortal diviners, in a setting where mayors of large towns are higher than level 7.

Chris Mortika wrote:

regarding obscurity

As long as you have a setting where high-level spellcasting is generally available and divinations aren't restricted, it's basically hopeless. You're blocking up one hole in a chain-link dam.

[terraleon]

Jared Goodwin wrote:

Bear in mind that if you deal with devils and get (to your mind) a good deal, you don't mind further machinations. That's value added.

I totally disagree on that point. If you're smart enough to handle those magics, then you know that dealing with devils is eventually going to cost you your soul-- and in a world where the afterlife is an established fact, that's a pretty hefty price. I really don't think frequent short-term agreements for services like divination are something you're going to see people entering with devils on a regular basis. Devils are smart, and you have no control over what their machinations are, or what your actions will impact in the wider scale. Treating it as a value added deal just makes you more of the pawn they want.

I'll admit, my view on devils is colored by Ars Magica, where the only purposes fiends have are to get your soul and to cause as much sin and corruption as possible. However, I don't think there's much to eliminate that focus.

Jared Goodwin wrote:

And what about efreeti, who aren't interested in your corruption but merely ruthless, and also advertise? This isn't even starting on mortal diviners, in a setting where mayors of large towns are higher than level 7.

They're a tiger by the tail, but you're right. In the long term, they're probably a far better deal than the devils. However, they're capricious, evil and intent on twisting mortals to their own gain. They're possibly more lucrative, in that you might be able to get a wish out of them, but they also have that pesky change self ability and a habit of interfering.

Given a choice, I'd choose haga, then mortal, then efreet, then devil. And really, with the mortal, you're presuming that the god or other-planar creature (read: DM) is going to respond. That goes to the heart of the issue with divination in any game-- you've got to have a DM willing to work with it.

-Ben.

[Mairkurion {tm}]

Mortika, thanks for the post-mortem comments. Any chance we could see the final version of the stats at some point?

[Jared Goodwin]

terraleon wrote:

Given a choice, I'd choose haga, then mortal, then efreet, then devil. And really, with the mortal, you're presuming that the god or other-planar creature (read: DM) is going to respond. That goes to the heart of the issue with divination in any game-- you've got to have a DM willing to work with it.

It's not you, or your character, for that matter. This is all hot, hot, NPC-on-NPC action, ooh baby. You need to put yourself in the position of a foolhardy tyrant (as mentioned in the haga description).

You can ally yourself with a faction who have a stated interest in helping the powerful become more powerful (and you're powerful enough that they're never betrary you, of course!) This faction only requires that you supply the souls of sacrifices, and won't ever touch your soul as long as you can keep up with their demand. (And you'll never fall behind, of course.) After all, isn't victory worth a few sacrifices?

Or, you can go searching for a diviner, preferably one who's loyal to the cause or who can be intimidated/bribed into being loyal to the cause. They'll be loyal because they'll quail before your obvious might.

Obscure Haga don't fit into that; it's easier to find a diviner who will properly fear the tyrant or at least accept a large pile of gold. But if you take away their obscurity, their agenda is so antisocial that even foolhardy tyrants will just riddle the haga with arrows and deal with devils or efreeti or something, since devils and efreeti are at least loyal to fair dealing and generous payment. If you take away their obscurity and their agenda...you have somewhat iffy stats for huge birdpeople.

[Matt Goodall]

Hey Chris,

Just rereading the comments about the Haga, never realised how strongly people were influenced one way or the other. A real shame about the submitting a draft thing (crazy virus thing ouch!). I have come to realise, by competing in this competition, that one thing you have to do is have really good version control on your articles. I know you know that, this is just a hint to future competitors. I went and looked up your penandpaper entry and know that you would have submitted an awesome adventure proposal (I also suspect you have the whole proposal already written :-). I'll be looking forward to seeing you next year, I know you will be back for next year's competition.

[Mikhaila Burnett]

I know this is a long time after the contest, and I'm sure that after a re-read of the rules it's not a DQ issue for RPG Superstar, but I'm curious.

Are you, Chris, the same Christopher Mortika from the 1988 OP1 module "Tales of the Outer Planes"? If so, my hat's off to you for Castle at the Edge of Time. It is AWESOME.

[Chris Mortika]

Thanks, Mikhaila. I appreciate the kind words.

And yes, I wrote parts of OP1, as well as DL15, I14, and, um, some other stuff, as well as an Amazing-rank amount of material for Marvel Superheroes, Mayfair Games' DC Heroes, and Top Secret: SI.

[Kirth Gersen]

Chris Mortika wrote:

and, um, some other stuff

Heh, heh. I liked your stuff there. Some of the other entries... not so much.

I try not to paint with too broad a brush.