Free cure spells = good change
Bones foci = weak revelations (especially the final revelation)
Armor bonuses from revelations = weak (convert to natural AC, deflection, or whatever, as appropriate for the focus)
No turning/channeling access = inappropriate and weak (several classes should get one or both of these, and with the other advantages the cleric gets, it is not out of the question to add these to balance out the oracle, especially for backwards compatibility with divine feats; further, thematically they are appropriate, as foci such as flame and nature should be anathema to undead)
Flame foci burning spells = fairly useless at low levels, fairly useless at high levels; needs more spells, and better damage (=caster lvl, not spell level) that might actually pierce low level energy resistances.
Lore foci Int bonus = potentially confusing (make it a revelation that is taken only at a fixed level, or make it confer points from previous levels; as is, a player that isn't good at the min/maxing is punished for not taking the ability earlier)
I'd love to see the Heavens spell list improved on a little too. Scintillating Pattern being left off just isn't right! It's the grand daddy color spray! ( Don't judge I simply adore Color Spray).
I'd like to see more curses to choose from too.
1> I agree the adding of the 'cure' spells was a good move. It really frees up one known spell pretty much per level.
When I was picking 2nd level spell choices for my level 4 Oracle, I was working on choosing Aid because it gave both healing and an extra bonus.
I am not the main healer in my party of 9-10 characters but I am the secondary healer which means that I have to keep a supply of healing available.
The gain of the cure spells means that I keep the flexability in my list of known spells without sacrificing being able to be a healer.
During the last campaing, I was playing the only Cleric (random draw of classes) and got in trouble for being a negative channeler (taught some lessons in bards and druids doing some healing plus in making sure to buy various magical items to make up the short fall).
The good thing with the change is that I get the spells to do the healing when needed and can keep spells for doing other jobs. I am actually feeling pretty good with the spell list that I have at level 4.
Oracle Lvl 4 with Cha 17
Level 0 - Mending, Create Water, Stabilize, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Purify Food and Drink
Level 1 - (Shield - Wind Mystery), (Cure Light Wounds - Oracle), Sanctuary, Doom, and Endure Elements {I have some alternative choices if my DM will approve them from the Spell Compendium}
Level 2 - (Cure Moderate Wounds), Hold Person
Spells per Day
Level 0 - unlimited
Level 1 - 6 spells
Level 2 - 4 spells
If I need to be a healer then I have 6x (d8+4) + 4x (2d8+4) = 14d8 + 36 hit points of healing (roughly half of a cure light wand per day).
That is a pretty good benefit at level 4 while still retaining the option of some other spells.
2> I disagree on the Channeling and Turning.
i> Thematically - I don't see Oracles like Clerics as 'Masters' of the Undead or as direct channels of the divine. Clerics and Paladins are both types that I can see this linkage but I don't see Oracles having this linkage. Oracles are too 'Neutral' in their affiniation to be a direct channel to 'one' divine (they might not even have a specific patron).
ii> Weakness - With the addition of the full list of Cure Spells (or Inflict spells for the so inclined) the Oracle has the capacity to deliver as a healer or support. My level 4 is an example of the amount of healing that the class is already carrying and it can use those positive healings to damage negative creatures. Also remember that Turning is now an extra feat that must be purchased.
Now, if you include into channeling the backward compatability to use the Divine Feats then there is more of a differance but the Mysteries give the Oracle some flexible gains as comparison with some of them giving some pretty good bang. A GM might need to look at what powers a Divine Feat and make some ruling on which Mysteries might replace the 'battery' in Divine Feats (for example something like uses Lightning Breath would be a possible battery but minutes of Wings of Air could be too ~ this is one of the negotiations that needs to go on when backward compatability is brought into a Pathfinder game).
I might also suggest that to replace the loss of access to the Turning Feat (no positive energy 'battery') that a spell be available in the APG that provides a similar option. This allows the Oracle that really wants the ability to Turn/Control to have a way go around and get this ability (a Cleric would take the Feat and the Oracle would take the Spell).
Turning alternatives...
Those are some pretty decent ideas, and using a different "battery" is a nice way of working it, though without explicit statements to such in the rules there will be a great many gm's out there that will rule it out all together as an option.
Do remember btw, that though turning now requires a feat, there is precedent for giving turning without channeling. And that turning "just undead" isn't the only option, as for example one could turn fire elementals and control water elementals with the Waves mystery.
On the whole however, I think it unlikely that Paizo will fix this particular facet of the Oracle, in large part b/c they probably don't see it as something to "fix" in the first place. I just find it disappointing that something with an innate connection to divine power can't actually use that power to ward off thematically appropriate stuff. Though the "spell powered turning" thing you mentioned did seem to be a pretty good idea, and to be more in line with the mechanics already available for the spontaneous caster, so maybe they'll toy with that a bit...
And hopefully fix the AC revelations, cuz they're pretty pointless.
1> Yeah, for a straight Oracle, many of the +X Armour Class bonuses don't inspire much. You have access to Medium Armour and Shield like a Cleric (previously just Light armour so this was a nice upgrade).
I wrote in another thread that this really only is of value to a multiclasser like a Sorcerer/Wizard looking for a short dip to get some bonuses on the way to a prestige class like Mystic Theurge.
2> I am fully with you on the part of that if it isn't written down then it doesn't exist mentality of some GMs. I have one at the moment. The silly reverse of it is that if something is really badly broken in the rules and writing then it is perfectly good to go as it is a published book. RAW (Rules As Written) can be a dangerous way to run a campaign.
3> I like the battery approach but I am often more flexible when I GM with my players. Then again, I am not afraid to slap a player down and say, 'No, bad player' when they try to convince me that a badly written and level unappropriate feat or spell is what they want. :D
I agree that I think Paizo has other concerns then making the Oracle comparable in having turning like a Cleric (remember that Pazio took the turning/commanding away from the Domains of Elements in the OGL and turned them into Feats again). I think this was partially done so Paladins could turn Outsiders and Elementals like a cleric.
4> While there are differances. I like the differances. Still, it may be that Pazio creates a Revelation for some of the elemental choices to allow the Oracle to Command or Turn Elementals of that type. A simpler choice might also be a dedicated summoning ability that only summons elementals of the appropriate type.
Wind Friend (must be level 3 to take)
i> Summon Small Elemental of type (air in this case)
ii> At level 7 can Summon Medium Elemental of type or d4+1 Small Elementals of type
iii> At level 11 can Summon Huge Elemental of type or d4+1 Medium or Smaller Elementals
iv> At level 15 can Summon Elder Elemental of type or d4+1 Huge or Smaller Elementals
v> At level 19 can Summon d4+1 Eldar Elementals or smaller
{The above is just a redaction of the Summon Natures Ally spells dedicated to summoning Elementals and is comparable to the Nature Mysteries power 'Friend to the Animals'}
I don't get the hate for the armor revelations. They provide as much or more armor than medium armor (they're +4, +2 more every 3 levels, totalling up to +12; the best you can get with medium armor is +11), don't interfere with shields, provide extra benefits on top of the armor (non-trivial DR), can be used whenever you need them now with the change to duration, and leave the body slot open for other magic items (like robes).
I don't get the hate for the armor revelations. They provide as much or more armor than medium armor (they're +4, +2 more every 3 levels, totalling up to +12; the best you can get with medium armor is +11), don't interfere with shields, provide extra benefits on top of the armor (non-trivial DR), can be used whenever you need them now with the change to duration, and leave the body slot open for other magic items (like robes).
Hate is a bit strong of a word for the feeling.
From the perspective of the 'pure' oracle.
At level 1 you can have Breastplate (+6) and Heavy Shield (+2) for a total of +8.
The AC choice is 2 points worse if you just consider the Armour Bonus.
Add to this that it takes a Standard Action to activate the Armour of the Revelation (which means you don't have it for the suprise round of a combat and have to choose between spending an action activating it or going without armour in combat.
The duration has improved in this version from the previous 1 min per level to 10 min per level. Still, a defence that is not dependable because you only have it so many minutes a day (10 min at first level and 200 min ~ 3+ hours at level 20) is not as good as something that you have 24 hours a day if you need it.
The first gain in protection occurs at level 7 and then every 4 levels after giving
1 to 6 +4 Armour
7 to 11 +6 Armour
12 to 15 +8 Armour (Equivelent to +2 Breastplate)
16 to 19 +10 Armour (Equivelent to +4 Breastplate)
20 +12 Armour
So, as a Revelation pick it is no better in protection then plain Breastplate available off of the shelf for 200 gp till level 12 except that Breastplate purchased has no duration or need to spend a standard action to activate it.
Further to this, obtaining say +2 Breastplate armour before level 12 is not too difficult or the Oracle could use the spell Magic Vestments which lasts 6 hours when you get it at level 6 and by level 16 adds +4 Enhancement Bonus (while lasting 16 hours).
It takes level 20 for the Armour bonus to pull ahead by +1 and again, it takes an action to activate this defence with a duration of just over 3 hours.
If a player is making an Oracle, then there are just plenty of options that offer more for the pick then something that can be solved with a 200 gp buy and one casting of a level 3 spell.
Finally, by the time that AC from Armour +12 means something, AC is pretty meaningless compared to most of the monsters with their BABs. You are pretty much guaranteed to get hit if the opponent can find you.
I cannot recall a single adventure a character of mine has ever been on where they've been in constant danger for 3 hours straight. Saying "you only get 10 minutes/level duration" is disingenuous because you're ignoring that you can turn it off when you don't need it. With the exception of extended overland travel, it's very, very likely that you can predict to within 10 minutes when you're going to get into a fight. That also negates the "it takes a standard action" complaint. Once you're past the first few levels (and honestly I wouldn't take any of the armor revelations before 7th level anyway), you should be able to have it available at all times that you actually need it.
Then there's the fact that you can't sleep in medium armor unless you took the Endurance feat for some inexplicable reason. So, no, you can't have it on 24 hours a day. Not if you want to actually recover spells.
Then there's the fact that you're continuing to ignore the DR/ranged miss chance (which works on ray spells, including such nasties as disintegrate).
Then you're choosing to use one of your very limited spells known on magic vestment instead of something that you can't already duplicate with a class feature.
Then you're choosing to use a body slot on armor that lowers your skill checks and speed.
Then you're ignoring the benefits of wearing a robe instead of a suit of armor.
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In short, there are lots of reasons to take the armor revelations. They're perfectly viable. At 1 minute/level, they sucked, but 10 minutes/level is just fine.
[...]
In short, there are lots of reasons to take the armor revelations. They're perfectly viable. At 1 minute/level, they sucked, but 10 minutes/level is just fine.
Especially of you play a dex character, but it isn't über.
Again, it all depends on how you play.
I've done the Temple of Elemental Evil where are group was spending weeks underground. We could barricade a door and catch some shut eye but there was no real 'rest'.
It also depends on if your GM remembers to impose search times on players and keeps track of travel times. Combat may be only a few seconds but usually the rest of adventuring can consume plenty of time and if you are wondering if patrols are going to come by then you want your protection.
You mention the DR but it is DR 5 that becomes avaialable at level 13. When I am at level 13, the things that tend to hit me have so much punch power that this is really no defence.
Examples of CR 13 (from p319 Bestiary list of monsters by CR)
Blue Dragon adult +23 to hit and 2d8+12 damage on a bite
Devil, Ice +21 to hit and 3d6+10 damage with a spear
Golem, Iron +28 to hit and 2d10+16 damage with a slam
Giant, Storm +27 to hit and 4d6+21 damage with Greatsword
A +8 Armour bonus and 5 DR (even if it was adamantine which it isn't) is not going to do more then be a speed bump to monsters at level 13. It gets worse from here.
The best of the bunch is the Wind with the 50% miss chance on ranged attacks but you can already get 50% miss chance on ranged and melee attacks by choosing the Invisibility Revelation at level 1 (which improves to Greater Invisibility at level 9).
There are builds and campaigns that make the armour a usable pick but it appears that the list was originally designed with thoughts of something like a Sorcerer or Wizard in mind and not a Cleric/Oracle.
A Cleric/Oracle is more concerned with buffing others or having the armour benefit stack with their own defences. This is why some have suggested a deflection bonus would be better as it would help the Oracle by stacking with their chosen protection. The other option would be some way of giving the bonus to another character to help them avoid damage.
Examples of CR 13 (from p319 Bestiary list of monsters by CR)
Blue Dragon adult +23 to hit and 2d8+12 damage on a bite
Devil, Ice +21 to hit and 3d6+10 damage with a spear
Golem, Iron +28 to hit and 2d10+16 damage with a slam
Giant, Storm +27 to hit and 4d6+21 damage with GreatswordA +8 Armour bonus and 5 DR (even if it was adamantine which it isn't) is not going to do more then be a speed bump to monsters at level 13. It gets worse from here.
2d8+12 averages to 21. Reducing that by 5 gives a 23.8% reduction in average damage.
3d6+10 averages to 20. Reducing that by 5 gives a 25% reduction in average damage.2d10+16 averages to 27. Reducing that by 5 gives a 18.5% reduction in average damage.
4d6+21 averages to 35. Reducing that by 5 gives a 14.2% reduction in average damage.
Those are all quite significant.
This is why some have suggested a deflection bonus would be better as it would help the Oracle by stacking with their chosen protection. The other option would be some way of giving the bonus to another character to help them avoid damage.
That's funny, because deflection bonuses have all the same problems as armor bonuses. They overlap with rings of protection and shield of faith. Not to mention that deflection bonuses are much lower than armor bonuses, meaning the ability would likely be changed to +1, then +1 per 4 levels above 3rd for a max of +5. Sorry, that'd make it useless.
The biggest problems with armor, as I see it:
1) It needs to be front-loaded in effectiveness. A class ability that is taken in place of some fairly potent other abilities should be more valuable than a 200gp item.
2) Even when considering the raw AC as eventually equaling out, you still eliminate the potential for bonuses on the armor, and should thus get something to make it a bit better... and DR of the type provided is not that thing. The Wind mystery is more along the lines of what I think is a good compensation ability.
3) The DR is nice, but of less worth than a material type DR. Unless they changed it from 3.5, everything with a bite attack pierces your defense, and slashing is super common, making Heavens next to worthless.
4) The standard action to activate is imo the biggest single problem. Tempo in combat is hugely important, and the standard action to put up a buff that could be easily replicated with medium armor is a wasted action that could go toward a better buff, or an attack. This problem is only worse at higher levels, and I cannot think of any arguments, from a numbers perspective at least, that make the armor revelations worthwhile when this is taken into consideration. Even simply wearing a chain shirt to get around sleeping in armor is worth it, if it means not wasting your first action every combat.
Edit) The reason that changing to one of the other types of bonus would be better is that it would scale more evenly with level, and give the character something they couldn't do as well with a mundane item at low levels. It also means they don't have to sacrifice the ability to get special enhancements on their armor, and allows them a free slot for a different magic item (technically armor does too, however there is less worthwhile to go in the armor slot).
extra complaint) Am I blind, or does Earth end up not getting an armor revelation at all?! I mean, not that I'd ever take it on any of the mysteries, but it seems like they of all the mysteries should get one.
The biggest problems with armor, as I see it:
1) It needs to be front-loaded in effectiveness. A class ability that is taken in place of some fairly potent other abilities should be more valuable than a 200gp item.
It is. It has none of the penalties of wearing medium armor (armor check penalties to skill checks, reduced speed, fatigue if slept in).
2) Even when considering the raw AC as eventually equaling out, you still eliminate the potential for bonuses on the armor, and should thus get something to make it a bit better... and DR of the type provided is not that thing. The Wind mystery is more along the lines of what I think is a good compensation ability.
Bracers of armor can provide all of those non-enhancement armor bonuses.
3) The DR is nice, but of less worth than a material type DR. Unless they changed it from 3.5, everything with a bite attack pierces your defense, and slashing is super common, making Heavens next to worthless.
No, it's worth MORE than a material type. Material types are overcome by any +3 weapon (+4 for adamantine). Alignment is overcome by any +5 weapon. ONLY damage type and exceedingly rare DRs (like a demilich's DR/vorpal) aren't able to be overcome by bog-standard magic weapons.
4) The standard action to activate is imo the biggest single problem. Tempo in combat is hugely important, and the standard action to put up a buff that could be easily replicated with medium armor is a wasted action that could go toward a better buff, or an attack.
Except that, especially at high levels, it should always be active whenever you need it. The activation time is only an issue at very low levels.
extra complaint) Am I blind, or does Earth end up not getting an armor revelation at all?! I mean, not that I'd ever take it on any of the mysteries, but it seems like they of all the mysteries should get one.
Stone gets the "I break every weapon that hits me and take no damage from weapons that break" revelation, they don't need an armor one.
It is. It has none of the penalties of wearing medium armor (armor check penalties to skill checks, reduced speed, fatigue if slept in).
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Bracers of armor can provide all of those non-enhancement armor bonuses.
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No, it's worth MORE than a material type. Material types are overcome by any +3 weapon (+4 for adamantine). Alignment is overcome by any +5 weapon. ONLY damage type and exceedingly rare DRs (like a demilich's DR/vorpal) aren't able to be overcome by bog-standard magic weapons.
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Except that, especially at high levels, it should always be active whenever you need it. The activation time is only an issue at very low levels.
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Stone gets the "I break every weapon that hits me and...
1)The penalties of medium armor are rarely an issue for the classes willing to use it at all, at least in my experience. And in that case, A chain shirt is still just as good, barring exceptional dexterity (on a primary charisma class), at least until 7th level.
2)At the cost of another item and slot, yes.
3)Hmm... I'll give you that one, I forgot about that particular PF change. It wasn't one of my favs, but it is in the rules nonetheless. Still, the fact is that a great deal of hits are going straight through the DR/dmg type. They are better when put in perspective, but still not adequate compensation imo for their tempo adjust, equivalence to standard items, and their limited duration.
4)This assumes that the encounter is planned (not sure about everyone else, but I try to spring at least half my encounters on players with limited actions to buff). If it isn't, then tempo remains an issue.
Earth) This is an all or nothing thing, and doesn't protect against things that can't be broken. Really, thematically there should be an armor ability in there. If Death and Air get one, so should the oracle channeling the most solid of elements.
1)The penalties of medium armor are rarely an issue for the classes willing to use it at all, at least in my experience. And in that case, A chain shirt is still just as good, barring exceptional dexterity (on a primary charisma class), at least until 7th level.
First, the speed penalty is always a big deal, at least in our games (barring dwarves of course, but a penalty to charisma does not a good oracle make, so dwarven oracles should be rare). As the saying goes, you don't have to outrun the hungry dragon, just the halfling. Or Oracle in medium armor, as the case may be.
Second, you'll please note that I've always said the armor revelations aren't good choices for low level Oracles.2)At the cost of another item and slot, yes.
That's misleading. First, it doesn't cost you a slot. You were going to fill one slot (body) with the enchantment; now you fill a different slot (arms) with it. Net change = zero.
Second, it's actually cheaper to use bracers of armor than actual armor if you're not interested in the actual AC. If you're aiming for AC, you have to keep increasing the enhancement bonus of the armor, but if you just want the extra special enchantments, you can leave bracers of armor at a +1 bonus. There's also the (very minor, comparatively) cost of the actual armor, whereas the bracers only cost as much as their enchantment.Third, there's basically nothing else at all interesting in the arms slot for Oracles, unless you're building some strange archer Oracle without using the War mystery (which doesn't have an armor revelation). You're not "giving up" the slot if there's nothing else to put there anyway.
4)This assumes that the encounter is planned (not sure about everyone else, but I try to spring at least half my encounters on players with limited actions to buff). If it isn't, then tempo remains an issue.
With a 10 minute duration per use, about the only time you shouldn't have one of the armor revelations already active when it matters is when you're traveling long distances by foot. In the standard dungeon crawl type setting, you can get at least a good idea of when things are going to be fairly safe for a while and when you're likely to need the buff active.
I'll add my experience to rydi et alia's . I've already (in the original playtest) posted my math-based-thoughts on the matter...see that thread if you're interested. I'd rather talk to the current discussion, and offer my opinions on solutions.
As both a player and a DM, I see 10-min per level spells as used in a few encounters. To give a (spoiler free) example, anyone who has played in the Second Darkness campaign should recall several cases (several meaning "more often than not) in which an entire "day" was spent in hostile territory....and I can't think of more than one or two cases in which danger was only present for a few minutes at a time.
I think Rydi's point is that the players don't HAVE to be in "constant danger" (aka combat) to run out of duration--if a character is in a forest, or the Darklands, or a particularly rough bar, they would have to choose between being protected against the (entirely likely) potential of an attack, or wasting an action once the combat began. Thus, unless a character intends to campaign on the notorious two-hour-workday, the average adventurer--who, let's face it, doesn't exhibit good judgement in choice of locale--is entirely likely to run out before the second meaningful combat of the day, unless they're stripping and reapplying on a per-combat basis.
This is not to say that this is necessarily a bad decision to have to make...simply that the rewards are not worth the cost of casting flamestrike in the first round of combat.
My personal thoughts on the matter:
Fizzlebolt Option 1) Extend to hours-per-level
This places them in the category of Mage Armor: furthermore, while it is better than mage armor, the opportunity cost of taking a mystery is much, much higher than that of taking a spell, even for a spontaneous caster. I'll go so far as to say I don't think it should be nerfed in this approach, either.
Fizzlebolt Option 2) Reduce activation to a Swift/Immediate/Free action
This sets it more in line with things such as the Cleric Bramble Armor. If swift, the durations should probably be left pretty high. To be honest, I'm currently playing a Cleric (now level 11) with the Plant domain, and I've never even hit with bramble armor OR Wooden Fist..and they're free actions! That duration being limited to rounds just means it's never turned on until I'm in melee, and at that point I'm getting out of melee...so I'm rarely hit a second time. I'm rambling, so to abbreviate: if the duration is kept the same, a swift action would be worthwhile during the first round of combat. If cut down to rounds, I'd rather see it set to an Immediate action than a free one, so I could see it turned on when I'm hit.
Fizzlebolt Option 3) Nerf-n-stack
Since all oracles have medium armor, the ability to "augment" that armor would be perfectly fine. Obviously the bonuses would have to be reduced...but it would allow the duration to be shortened to rounds or minutes without being a waste--it allows the cleric to walk around with reasonable defenses most of the time, then go into "wash my pants afterwards" mode when the Vrock shows up to claw claw talon talon bite you.
As for the "benefits over regular armor" thing, I'm gonna apologize to Jason for "me too!"ing and agree that the benefirst from it not being real armor are essentially meaningless unless you can wear the armor for at least as long as Mage Armor. It doesn't matter that I can sleep in Bone Armor...it'd never make it to bedtime anyways, and if it did, it would be gone by the time the token night engagement started. Movement penalties, Dex penalties...they're all things armor wearing classes have dealt with. Give me hours per level, and I'll agree the benefits matter...but knowing that for up to 3 hours, I could move 5 feet while being protected no better than I could have otherwise...meh.
Fizz out.