Cavalier's Banner


Advanced Player's Guide Playtest: Final Playtest

Sovereign Court

Okay I have no problems with the banner ability, but can we PLEEAAAASE add the ability to have the banner as a horse blanket draped over the sides of the horse instead of on a lance, or a pole. Having it that way locks the cavalier into a medieval knight visual, when I was in the round 1 playtest I had an arabian horse lord as my cavalier and that meant that the banner was a drapped horse blanket with his symbol on each side. Having a lance flag or a banner wouldn't have fit the flavor of the character.

Heck even if you wanted a native american inspired cavalier, you'd have to have a lance or a banner, when their banner would more likely be warpainted symbols on the flanks of their horses.

See what I'm saying, I don't want the banner changed, but I want the flavor of the banner to be mutable, whereas now it's locked down as a medieval knights banner. Both of the representations I'm noting would be visible within 60' fit the flavor of the banner having to be something people can see/rally behind, but by the current rules aren't allowed.

I had a 10th level cavalier and liked the character so much that I was considering making him my next character when I get a chance to be player (if ever *rolls eyes*) but if the banner ability doesn't change that hurts the concept (he didn't have a lance and a banner would've been silly for the flavor)


I was thinking along the same lines. One of the first images I had for a banner was the sashimono (and uma-jirushi) worn by samurai. You can also argue a knight's surcoat works as a banner since it displays his arms (hence coat-of-arms).


Different banner question:

APG wrote:


Banner (Ex): At 5th level, a cavalier’s banner becomes a symbol of inspiration to his allies and companions. As long as the cavalier’s banner is clearly visible, all allies within 60 feet receive a +2 morale bonus on saving throws against fear and a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls made as part of a charge. At 10th level, and every five levels thereafter, these bonuses increase by +1.

Greater Banner (Ex): At 14th level, the cavalier’s banner becomes a rallying call to his allies. All allies within 60 feet receive a +2 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and compulsion spells and effects. The morale bonus on attack rolls made as part of a charge increases to +2.

It seems that Banner would give you a +1 bonus to attack rolls made as part of a charge, then +2 at 10, +3 at 15 and +4 at 20.

But then Greater Banner says that you get a +2 at level 14. Is the scaling bonus in Banner only intended to apply to the save vs. fear?


Does the Banner have to be on the Cavalier? Can it be displayed by another person (such as henchman or cohort)?

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

I don't see anything saying the cavalier has to be carrying the banner. Which, I think, opens up a huge can of worms.

Also, I miss having a banner being an unspecified coat of arms instead of an actual piece of cloth. I can no longer have my orcish warlord cavalier inspire his troops by holding up a severed head on a pike.

Sovereign Court

final playtest pg 9-10 wrote:

Banner (Ex): At 5th level, a cavalier’s banner becomes

a symbol of inspiration to his allies and companions. As
long as the cavalier’s banner is clearly visible, all allies
within 60 feet receive a +2 morale bonus on saving throws
against fear and a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls
made as part of a charge. At 10th level, and every five levels
thereafter, these bonuses increase by +1. The banner must
be at least Small or larger and must be displayed on a pole
or hung from a lance for this ability to function.

So by this someone else I guess can hold the banner (squire or some such) and everyone within 60 ft of the cavalier gets a bonus to saves vs. fear and attacks. And yeah definitely confusing when you get to the greater banner ability. and yeah gotta be on a pole or lance (which is the worst part)

But the banner doesn't have to be a piece of cloth, just small or larger. So your orc warlord can't hoist a head on a pike, but could hoist a whole body on a pike and that would work :D

Theres an old MtG card where the humans are rallying around a disembowled goblin held up on some kind of square cross thing. That's the image I'm getting from your banner.


I have a few questions about the banner first off does the banner actually apply to the cavalier? Currently it says:

"As long as the cavalier’s banner is clearly visible, all allies within 60 feet receive a +2 morale bonus on saving throws against fear and a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls made as part of a charge. At 10th level, and every five levels thereafter, these bonuses increase by +1. The banner must be at least Small or larger and must be displayed on a pole or hung from a lance for this ability to function".

So currently the wording points towards it only affecting his allies.

Also the greater banner ability says:

"The morale bonus on attack rolls made as part of a charge increases to +2".

But the bonus is already at +2 so what does this mean? It’s a bit confusing.

Sovereign Court

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber
fanguad wrote:

Different banner question:

APG wrote:


Banner (Ex): At 5th level, a cavalier’s banner becomes a symbol of inspiration to his allies and companions. As long as the cavalier’s banner is clearly visible, all allies within 60 feet receive a +2 morale bonus on saving throws against fear and a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls made as part of a charge. At 10th level, and every five levels thereafter, these bonuses increase by +1.

Greater Banner (Ex): At 14th level, the cavalier’s banner becomes a rallying call to his allies. All allies within 60 feet receive a +2 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and compulsion spells and effects. The morale bonus on attack rolls made as part of a charge increases to +2.

It seems that Banner would give you a +1 bonus to attack rolls made as part of a charge, then +2 at 10, +3 at 15 and +4 at 20.

But then Greater Banner says that you get a +2 at level 14. Is the scaling bonus in Banner only intended to apply to the save vs. fear?

Yeah, good question.

Sovereign Court

I don't think it's been clarified yet either, because it really is confusing.


lastknightleft wrote:
final playtest pg 9-10 wrote:

Banner (Ex): At 5th level, a cavalier’s banner becomes

a symbol of inspiration to his allies and companions. As
long as the cavalier’s banner is clearly visible, all allies
within 60 feet receive a +2 morale bonus on saving throws
against fear and a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls
made as part of a charge. At 10th level, and every five levels
thereafter, these bonuses increase by +1. The banner must
be at least Small or larger and must be displayed on a pole
or hung from a lance for this ability to function.

So by this someone else I guess can hold the banner (squire or some such) and everyone within 60 ft of the cavalier gets a bonus to saves vs. fear and attacks. And yeah definitely confusing when you get to the greater banner ability. and yeah gotta be on a pole or lance (which is the worst part)

Actually, you are slightly incorrect as I read it. It's not everyone within 60 ft of the cavalier, but everyone withing 60 ft of the banner itself that gets the bonus. The cavalier can leave it with a squire or even stuck into the ground like a flagpole, but the effect is centered on the banner, not the cavalier (except the part of Greater Banner where the cavalier himself must wave the banner in the air to grant an additional saving throw).

Sovereign Court

Freesword wrote:
lastknightleft wrote:
final playtest pg 9-10 wrote:

Banner (Ex): At 5th level, a cavalier’s banner becomes

a symbol of inspiration to his allies and companions. As
long as the cavalier’s banner is clearly visible, all allies
within 60 feet receive a +2 morale bonus on saving throws
against fear and a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls
made as part of a charge. At 10th level, and every five levels
thereafter, these bonuses increase by +1. The banner must
be at least Small or larger and must be displayed on a pole
or hung from a lance for this ability to function.

So by this someone else I guess can hold the banner (squire or some such) and everyone within 60 ft of the cavalier gets a bonus to saves vs. fear and attacks. And yeah definitely confusing when you get to the greater banner ability. and yeah gotta be on a pole or lance (which is the worst part)

Actually, you are slightly incorrect as I read it. It's not everyone within 60 ft of the cavalier, but everyone withing 60 ft of the banner itself that gets the bonus. The cavalier can leave it with a squire or even stuck into the ground like a flagpole, but the effect is centered on the banner, not the cavalier (except the part of Greater Banner where the cavalier himself must wave the banner in the air to grant an additional saving throw).

That's one of those interpretation things, that we could argue till we're blue in the face, I'm don't particularly care either way, just pointing out how easy it is to get the impression that it may do things that aren't intended. I think the biggest issues with the banner are

A) the fact that it has to be on a lance or pole
B) the confusion between banner and greater banner
C) the confusion as to whether or not the cavalier has to be the one holding the banner

I also rank them that way in order of importance, but that's my personal opinion


I'd swap A and B in priority myself, but I agree those are the points Jason should turn some attention to.

Dark Archive

lastknightleft wrote:
Okay I have no problems with the banner ability, but can we PLEEAAAASE add the ability to have the banner as a horse blanket draped over the sides of the horse instead of on a lance, or a pole.

I can't see any DM not allowing you to display your banner however you want, flavor-wise. Would this even be a problem in Organized Play?


It might be in org play as by RAW it only works will on a pole or lance. I would allow it as long as folks could see it, but then like I said by RAW thats not allowed

Sovereign Court

seekerofshadowlight wrote:
It might be in org play as by RAW it only works will on a pole or lance. I would allow it as long as folks could see it, but then like I said by RAW thats not allowed

+1, and I've known too many DMs who are a stickler for RAW, even outside of organized play.

Grand Lodge

Diabhol wrote:
lastknightleft wrote:
Okay I have no problems with the banner ability, but can we PLEEAAAASE add the ability to have the banner as a horse blanket draped over the sides of the horse instead of on a lance, or a pole.

I can't see any DM not allowing you to display your banner however you want, flavor-wise. Would this even be a problem in Organized Play?

In my experience it would depend on the DM...although I wouldn't take issue with it.


Yar!

I would like to second the motion to have some clarification on the banner vs greater banner issue in regards to the moral bonus' on charge attacks.

^_^


And whether or not the Banner benefits the Cav themself. (I think it probably should. The Cav doesn't seem like a humble class (even if they think that), so they would be inspired by their own powers of inspiration)

Sovereign Court

Quandary wrote:
And whether or not the Banner benefits the Cav themself. (I think it probably should. The Cav doesn't seem like a humble class (even if they think that), so they would be inspired by their own powers of inspiration)

While I understand your argument the creature generating itself is never it's own ally. So it's not unclear that they don't get this benefit, in the same way it isn't unclear for bards because bards specifically added the tag (and themselves) to inspire courage so that they could be buffed by their music. So unless the add the tag (and themselves) to the banner ability it does not affect the cavalier.

Now you make a good argument that the tag should be added, but that's not the same as saying it's unclear.

Community / Forums / Archive / Pathfinder / Playtests & Prerelease Discussions / Advanced Player's Guide Playtest / Advanced Player's Guide Playtest: Final Playtest / Cavalier's Banner All Messageboards
Recent threads in Advanced Player's Guide Playtest: Final Playtest