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Vic Wertz wrote:
Ash_Gazn wrote:
I see that page 45 of the final playtest document refers to Pathfinder Bestiary II. Does this suggest it will be released around the same time as the Advanced Players Guide?
Given that there are varying definitions of the word "around," I'll go with "yes."

Woo-hoo! July? August? September? Vic, can't you spill *anything* [more] about the release date for Beastiary II?

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Asgetrion wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
Ash_Gazn wrote:
I see that page 45 of the final playtest document refers to Pathfinder Bestiary II. Does this suggest it will be released around the same time as the Advanced Players Guide?
Given that there are varying definitions of the word "around," I'll go with "yes."
Woo-hoo! July? August? September? Vic, can't you spill *anything* [more] about the release date for Beastiary II?

I can spill that full spillage is imminent...

Dark Archive

Vic Wertz wrote:
Asgetrion wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
Ash_Gazn wrote:
I see that page 45 of the final playtest document refers to Pathfinder Bestiary II. Does this suggest it will be released around the same time as the Advanced Players Guide?
Given that there are varying definitions of the word "around," I'll go with "yes."
Woo-hoo! July? August? September? Vic, can't you spill *anything* [more] about the release date for Beastiary II?
I can spill that full spillage is imminent...

Ooh... you're a shameless tease! Will there be previews from the book? When? :)


[doppelganger Mairkurion/Yoda8myhead]

blog preview art please

[/doppelganger Mairkurion/Yoda8myhead]


Kaisoku wrote:
Draeke Raefel wrote:
Mirror, Mirror wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

You can apply claws to any limb the eidolon possesses.

Except it specifically states you can only apply claws to the arms... same with slam attacks and pincers.

"Claws (Ex): An eidolon has a pair of vicious claws at the
end of its limbs, giving it two claw attacks. These attacks
are primary attacks. The claws deal 1d4 points of damage
(1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs
(arms) evolution to take this evolution.
This evolution can
be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess
an equal number of the limbs evolution."

The evolution you are looking for is "Rake".
which doesn't allow you to gain the normal claw/claw/bite attack routine of some of the quadrupedal forms. the forelegs need to allow the claws evolution.

I don't understand what you are getting at. A Lion has 4 claws, but only has a claw/claw/bite routine, and if he gets his grapple he can rake.

How would that be any different from the Eidolon (clawed forearms with a bite, and then rake for the hind legs)?

*Edit* Ah, I reread it and see now.. the Quadruped states it has "legs" on the forelegs, which don't qualify for claws.
Yeah, that might need a bit of a revision in the Claws entry.

Maybe we are missing a "Talons" entry, that are feet specific? That would cover the bird-like Eidolons... and some dinosaurs if I recall correctly.

The issue now seems to be that quadrupedal eidolons are extremely underpowered at low levels, especially when you compare them to bipedal eidolons (or a druid's animal companion). Compare:

1st-level quad eidolon
1 HD, +1 BAB, good Fort/Ref, 4 skills, 1 feat, bite attack. Basic attack stat is +3 bite, 1d6+3 damage. Give it arms and claws with your 3 points and you have two +3 claws, 1d4+2 damage. Its AC is 14 and it has around 18 hp.

1st-level biped eidolon
Most of the stats are the same. Loses 1 point of AC but gains +2 Strength. Starts with 2 claws so give it a bite and +2 more strength and you have: +5 bite (1d6+4), 2 +5 claws (1d4+4). This is substantially better.

Looking at the two of them I fail to see anything truly attractive for the quad. They can take Pounce, which is awesome, but the bipeds don't have to spend as many points to get the same number of attacks, and have a higher strength to boot.

Compare that to animal companions:
Bear: +4 bite (1d4+2), 2 +4 claws (1d3+2)
Big cat: +2 bite (1d6+1), 2 +2 claws (1d4+1), +2 rake (1d4+1)
Both of these also have scent.

Maybe it's just me, but quads seem to have been nerfed a bit too hard with this last change.

Scarab Sages

what about the velociraptor
2x +1 talons (1D6 each) plus +1 bite (1D4) add +2 to hit if you take weapon finesse
& this has low light & scent thrown in as well

think I will just dump my summoner for PFS & play a druid from now on till Aug & hope Paizo correct this imbalance


It seems the general consensus is that the summoner got balanced a little too far. I understand the need to do something, lest they turn into 3E druids.

"I'm a druid! I have class features more powerful than your ENTIRE CLASS!"

But, overcompensation is an easy trap to fall into.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Jason,
Did we lose the 'extra head' evolution you said you'd been mulling over? I'm still thinking of a cerberus type Eidelon with 3 heads, but with no evolution to allow it, it's mostly just for show (a multi-head evolution should theoretically give it a boost to perception, allow breath evolution to be purchased multiple times, etc). Or did I just miss it in the evolutions somehow?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Scipion del Ferro wrote:
Lord Yod wrote:
Why can a lion, a tiger, or a bear have claws on its feet, but an eidolon can't?
How do you figure? A lion, a tiger, and a bear only have 2 claw attacks. Not four.

The 2 claw attacks are on their feet. They have 4 feet and 0 hands.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
mdt wrote:

Jason,

Did we lose the 'extra head' evolution you said you'd been mulling over? I'm still thinking of a cerberus type Eidelon with 3 heads, but with no evolution to allow it, it's mostly just for show (a multi-head evolution should theoretically give it a boost to perception, allow breath evolution to be purchased multiple times, etc). Or did I just miss it in the evolutions somehow?

This. The eidolon doesn't feel complete without the ability to get extra heads/bites.

Dark Archive

Since it doesn't specify, is the reach evolution stackable? I.e. can you give your eidolon a tentacle attack with 15' reach by adding the reach evolution twice?


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Draeke Raefel wrote:
Since it doesn't specify, is the reach evolution stackable? I.e. can you give your eidolon a tentacle attack with 15' reach by adding the reach evolution twice?

You can only take evolutions once each unless otherwise specified.Use the normal stacking rules where appropriate.

Scarab Sages

but you can now take large & reach gaining a 15' reach


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Ceefood wrote:
but you can now take large & reach gaining a 15' reach

True. Can you get a 20-ft. reach if you have a huge creature with the reach evolution? I have no idea what the standard reach is for a huge creature.


I don't know if this has been mentioned here but inquisitor is utter jank. That is once they hit lvl 10 they get this ability to destroy anything that walks up. They get the equivilent of about 19d6 damage with no save, and can do this consitently against anything. The primary reason for this is divine power, giving them full bab and +6 enhancement to str. This combined with their ability to do judgement for damage and attack, as well as an assumed +2 bow (easily achievable by lvl 10) and you have an average damage of 79.5 with a cap damage of 109.5. This is significantly above that of a sorcerer (meant to blow stuff up) and they have to have a save for half on top of their damage. I guess it just doesn't seem anywhere near in line with any of the other classes. Just my ovservations as I had a person play one in my campaign earlier.

Wormyxl

Sovereign Court

Jason updated the PDF so that you can buy claws on one set of legs, so a quadraped can have claws on it's forlegs now and take rake to get them on the hindlegs, so that's no longer an issue.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
brian wamsher wrote:

I don't know if this has been mentioned here but inquisitor is utter jank. That is once they hit lvl 10 they get this ability to destroy anything that walks up. They get the equivilent of about 19d6 damage with no save, and can do this consitently against anything. The primary reason for this is divine power, giving them full bab and +6 enhancement to str. This combined with their ability to do judgement for damage and attack, as well as an assumed +2 bow (easily achievable by lvl 10) and you have an average damage of 79.5 with a cap damage of 109.5. This is significantly above that of a sorcerer (meant to blow stuff up) and they have to have a save for half on top of their damage. I guess it just doesn't seem anywhere near in line with any of the other classes. Just my ovservations as I had a person play one in my campaign earlier.

Wormyxl

Except that Pathfinder Divine Power works differently than the 3.5 one did.

Sovereign Court

Gorbacz wrote:
brian wamsher wrote:

I don't know if this has been mentioned here but inquisitor is utter jank. That is once they hit lvl 10 they get this ability to destroy anything that walks up. They get the equivilent of about 19d6 damage with no save, and can do this consitently against anything. The primary reason for this is divine power, giving them full bab and +6 enhancement to str. This combined with their ability to do judgement for damage and attack, as well as an assumed +2 bow (easily achievable by lvl 10) and you have an average damage of 79.5 with a cap damage of 109.5. This is significantly above that of a sorcerer (meant to blow stuff up) and they have to have a save for half on top of their damage. I guess it just doesn't seem anywhere near in line with any of the other classes. Just my ovservations as I had a person play one in my campaign earlier.

Wormyxl

Except that Pathfinder Divine Power works differently than the 3.5 one did.

exactly, strength checks and strength based skill checks =/= a +6 bonus to strength, in fact all divine power gives you is a +1 to hit per 3 levels which at level 10 is a +3 to hit and damage. So please make sure you're using the spell correctly before you complain that something is overpowered. You gain a whopping +0 bonus to strength. Oh yeah and you'll get an extra 10hp ZOMG that's broken 10 hit points he'll be able to one shot asmodeus. I demand that the Inquisitor be removed from the game and all our memories be mind wiped before this game ruins our childhoods retroactively and kills all our puppies.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
lastknightleft wrote:
I demand that the Inquisitor be removed from the game and all our memories be mind wiped before this game ruins our childhoods retroactively and kills all our puppies.

Too late.

Sovereign Court

Callous Jack wrote:
lastknightleft wrote:
I demand that the Inquisitor be removed from the game and all our memories be mind wiped before this game ruins our childhoods retroactively and kills all our puppies.
Too late.

SNUGGLES NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

BULMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHN!

Dark Archive

How does the Eidolon interact with things like Bane and the Rangers favored enemy? Both require a specific subtype of outsider whereas the Eidolon doesn't have one.

Please provide feedback/comments here


playtest wrote:
An eidolon has the same alignment as the summoner that calls it.

So that would make it lawful/chaotic and good/evil outsider depending on the summoner.


Kraven Evilfart wrote:
playtest wrote:
An eidolon has the same alignment as the summoner that calls it.
So that would make it lawful/chaotic and good/evil outsider depending on the summoner.

No. Alignment and alignment subtypes are not directly linked. You can have a neutral Succubus (Fall-From-Grace); she still has the [evil] subtype because she's still a Succubus. Similarly, you can have an evil-aligned Outsider that does not have the [evil] subtype, such as an Efreet.


Zurai wrote:
Kraven Evilfart wrote:
playtest wrote:
An eidolon has the same alignment as the summoner that calls it.
So that would make it lawful/chaotic and good/evil outsider depending on the summoner.
No. Alignment and alignment subtypes are not directly linked. You can have a neutral Succubus (Fall-From-Grace); she still has the [evil] subtype because she's still a Succubus. Similarly, you can have an evil-aligned Outsider that does not have the [evil] subtype, such as an Efreet.

Not to mention that there are plenty of outsiders in the Bestiary with no alignment subtype (elementals, jann, aasimar, salamanders, etc.).

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 4

The thought occurs to me it would make no sense at all for there to be any category for a ranger to use to get a favored enemy bonus vs. an eidolon.

How can you be familiar with the physiology and habits of creatures which are different each time they appear?

Then again...how do you make a shirt out of a chaos beast?

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16

Scipion del Ferro wrote:

The thought occurs to me it would make no sense at all for there to be any category for a ranger to use to get a favored enemy bonus vs. an eidolon.

How can you be familiar with the physiology and habits of creatures which are different each time they appear?

Then again...how do you make a shirt out of a chaos beast?

How do you fit an elephant in a Safeway shopping cart?

Silver Crusade

Everything is great! I'm having a blast with all of this. A few minor edits I spotted while reading.

On page 9 of the final release, column 1, under the Tactician ability, third line in, the word "as" has a space between the two letters.

On page 36, column 1, under the Claws evolution, 6th line in, a period is missing.

On page 37, column 2, under the Flight evolution, 11th line, there is a disagreement. "Flying via magic means makes this a supernatural ability."

I know they're little and don't really affect anything, just a note.


Regarding the Eidolon, the rules for the maximum number of attacks specifically says:
"Max. Attacks: This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks."

As you can see in this thread, an Eidolon currently can simply bypass this limitation taking the Weapon Training evolution and multiple times the Limbs(arms) evolution, and loading itself with manufactured weapons.
Although it's not completely assured that with the Multiweapon Fighting feat it can also benefit taking Imp.TWF and Greater TWF (I believe it cannot), it can still (by RAW) bypass the limit of 8 natural attacks.
Mighty Eidolon from the thread in fact, at worst has 13 attacks (6 from Tentacles, 3 from the primary weapon - a Huge Glaive - , and 4 from his 4 secondary weapons - 4 Huge Bastard Swords), and at best... 21 attacks (!!!).

I think that something has still to be taken in consideration, regarding the maximum number of attacks allowable.
Just my 2c.


lastknightleft wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
brian wamsher wrote:

I don't know if this has been mentioned here but inquisitor is utter jank. That is once they hit lvl 10 they get this ability to destroy anything that walks up. They get the equivilent of about 19d6 damage with no save, and can do this consitently against anything. The primary reason for this is divine power, giving them full bab and +6 enhancement to str. This combined with their ability to do judgement for damage and attack, as well as an assumed +2 bow (easily achievable by lvl 10) and you have an average damage of 79.5 with a cap damage of 109.5. This is significantly above that of a sorcerer (meant to blow stuff up) and they have to have a save for half on top of their damage. I guess it just doesn't seem anywhere near in line with any of the other classes. Just my ovservations as I had a person play one in my campaign earlier.

Wormyxl

Except that Pathfinder Divine Power works differently than the 3.5 one did.
exactly, strength checks and strength based skill checks =/= a +6 bonus to strength, in fact all divine power gives you is a +1 to hit per 3 levels which at level 10 is a +3 to hit and damage. So please make sure you're using the spell correctly before you complain that something is overpowered. You gain a whopping +0 bonus to strength. Oh yeah and you'll get an extra 10hp ZOMG that's broken 10 hit points he'll be able to one shot asmodeus. I demand that the Inquisitor be removed from the game and all our memories be mind wiped before this game ruins our childhoods retroactively and kills all our puppies.

Sorry it took so long for me to reply, I've been away from my computer for a while... now, even with the str taken away, all that does is reduce yur damage by 3/attack, reducing the effective d6's down to about 16d6, still 6 class lvls above the average sorcerer.

*edit* oah... I forgot to also state that Divine Power also Gives you the bonus to damage at +1/3lvls... which i believe is +3 damage (the same number that the strength was giving us before hand).... back up to 19d6 again...

Sovereign Court

brian wamsher wrote:

Sorry it took so long for me to reply, I've been away from my computer for a while... now, even with the str taken away, all that does is reduce yur damage by 3/attack, reducing the effective d6's down to about 16d6, still 6 class lvls above the average sorcerer.

*edit* oah... I forgot to also state that Divine Power also Gives you the bonus to damage at +1/3lvls... which i believe is +3 damage (the same number that the strength was giving us before hand).... back up to 19d6 again...

please post a build or explain because I do not see how +3 to hit and damage is equivalent to 19d6. You've only mentioned divine power so I have nothing to work with here. You're saying that a +3 to hit and damage makes an inquisitor have the equivalent of 19d6. a d6 is average 3.5 so as far as I can see without any other relevant facts (since you've given us none) you're claiming that something that gives you the equivalent of a d6 extra damage gives you 19d6. So you can see how we find it ludicrous.

I see +2 bow, that's +2 damage, not equivalent to a d6, I see divine power for +3, so far we have +5. on top of a shortbow which would be d6 we have right now an equivalent of 2d6+2. add bane (at 10th level you only have bane) and we have 4d6+2. and you have two judgements that grant an attack or damage bonus. so you'll have +3 to attack and damage and used 2 of your 4 judgements a day. once again +3 is equivalent to a d6 so 5d6+2 and that's after having it running 3 rounds. Lets assume a str 18, that'd be +4, so we have an equivalent now of 7d6. +7/+2 which with our bonuses from divine power and judgement is now +13/+8 (after 3 rounds) and lets also assume an 18 dex (since he's also split with str.) oh yeah and lets assume a composite Str rated bow so +17/+12 dealing the equivalent of 8d6+1. For a no save equivalent of 16d6+2 without a save if both attacks hit. not bad, but nothing I can't match with a fighter of equivalent level.


brian wamsher wrote:
lastknightleft wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
brian wamsher wrote:

I don't know if this has been mentioned here but inquisitor is utter jank. That is once they hit lvl 10 they get this ability to destroy anything that walks up. They get the equivilent of about 19d6 damage with no save, and can do this consitently against anything. The primary reason for this is divine power, giving them full bab and +6 enhancement to str. This combined with their ability to do judgement for damage and attack, as well as an assumed +2 bow (easily achievable by lvl 10) and you have an average damage of 79.5 with a cap damage of 109.5. This is significantly above that of a sorcerer (meant to blow stuff up) and they have to have a save for half on top of their damage. I guess it just doesn't seem anywhere near in line with any of the other classes. Just my ovservations as I had a person play one in my campaign earlier.

Wormyxl

Except that Pathfinder Divine Power works differently than the 3.5 one did.
exactly, strength checks and strength based skill checks =/= a +6 bonus to strength, in fact all divine power gives you is a +1 to hit per 3 levels which at level 10 is a +3 to hit and damage. So please make sure you're using the spell correctly before you complain that something is overpowered. You gain a whopping +0 bonus to strength. Oh yeah and you'll get an extra 10hp ZOMG that's broken 10 hit points he'll be able to one shot asmodeus. I demand that the Inquisitor be removed from the game and all our memories be mind wiped before this game ruins our childhoods retroactively and kills all our puppies.

Sorry it took so long for me to reply, I've been away from my computer for a while... now, even with the str taken away, all that does is reduce yur damage by 3/attack, reducing the effective d6's down to about 16d6, still 6 class lvls above the average sorcerer.

*edit* oah... I forgot to also state that Divine Power also Gives you the bonus to damage at +1/3lvls... which i believe is +3...

Doing some very simple archery builds at lvl 10 with 20 dex and str and +2 bow, I got an Inquisitor who can put out 33.5 damage per hit, 4 attacks at + 20/20/20/15 for 7 rounds of combat straight before his effectiveness wears down. It takes a couple rounds for his judgements kick in at full power, and a round to buff with Divine Power. This also requires him to use his expendable bane ability, which adds 7 average damage and +2 to the hit for 10 rounds, and Divine Power, which he gets 2 times/day and adds 3 to hit and damage. He has just hit a level where he can use judgment almost every fight. The build has 1 unallocated feat. Unbuffed, he is 16.5 damage at +12/12/12/7

A Fighter build with the same stats can easily hit 25.5 and +17/17/17/12 to hit for every combat the entire day, without having to worry about expended resources. He doesn't need to spend the first round buffing, so he gets an extra full attack, and does not need to wait for judgements. Next level he will also gain annother attack over the Inquisitor. There are 2 unallocated feats.

Personally, considering the loss of a full attack and the resources expended, I do not mind the inquisitor occasionally out-shining the fighter and dropping well below him when those resources aren't spent.


lastknightleft wrote:
brian wamsher wrote:

Sorry it took so long for me to reply, I've been away from my computer for a while... now, even with the str taken away, all that does is reduce yur damage by 3/attack, reducing the effective d6's down to about 16d6, still 6 class lvls above the average sorcerer.

*edit* oah... I forgot to also state that Divine Power also Gives you the bonus to damage at +1/3lvls... which i believe is +3 damage (the same number that the strength was giving us before hand).... back up to 19d6 again...

please post a build or explain because I do not see how +3 to hit and damage is equivalent to 19d6. You've only mentioned divine power so I have nothing to work with here. You're saying that a +3 to hit and damage makes an inquisitor have the equivalent of 19d6. a d6 is average 3.5 so as far as I can see without any other relevant facts (since you've given us none) you're claiming that something that gives you the equivalent of a d6 extra damage gives you 19d6. So you can see how we find it ludicrous.

I see +2 bow, that's +2 damage, not equivalent to a d6, I see divine power for +3, so far we have +5. on top of a shortbow which would be d6 we have right now an equivalent of 2d6+2. add bane (at 10th level you only have bane) and we have 4d6+2. and you have two judgements that grant an attack or damage bonus. so you'll have +3 to attack and damage and used 2 of your 4 judgements a day. once again +3 is equivalent to a d6 so 5d6+2 and that's after having it running 3 rounds. Lets assume a str 18, that'd be +4, so we have an equivalent now of 7d6. +7/+2 which with our bonuses from divine power and judgement is now +13/+8 (after 3 rounds) and lets also assume an 18 dex (since he's also split with str.) oh yeah and lets assume a composite Str rated bow so +17/+12 dealing the equivalent of 8d6+1. For a no save equivalent of 16d6+2 without a save if both attacks hit. not bad, but nothing I can't match with a fighter of equivalent level.

From what I can tell, using 2 judgements at once does not cost 2 uses of judgement.

Spoiler:
At 8th level, whenever an
inquisitor uses her judgment ability, she selects two
different judgments, instead of one. As a swift action,
she can change one of these judgments, causing the
bonuses from that judgment to reset to those granted
on the first round.


lastknightleft wrote:
brian wamsher wrote:

Sorry it took so long for me to reply, I've been away from my computer for a while... now, even with the str taken away, all that does is reduce yur damage by 3/attack, reducing the effective d6's down to about 16d6, still 6 class lvls above the average sorcerer.

*edit* oah... I forgot to also state that Divine Power also Gives you the bonus to damage at +1/3lvls... which i believe is +3 damage (the same number that the strength was giving us before hand).... back up to 19d6 again...

please post a build or explain because I do not see how +3 to hit and damage is equivalent to 19d6. You've only mentioned divine power so I have nothing to work with here. You're saying that a +3 to hit and damage makes an inquisitor have the equivalent of 19d6. a d6 is average 3.5 so as far as I can see without any other relevant facts (since you've given us none) you're claiming that something that gives you the equivalent of a d6 extra damage gives you 19d6. So you can see how we find it ludicrous.

I see +2 bow, that's +2 damage, not equivalent to a d6, I see divine power for +3, so far we have +5. on top of a shortbow which would be d6 we have right now an equivalent of 2d6+2. add bane (at 10th level you only have bane) and we have 4d6+2. and you have two judgements that grant an attack or damage bonus. so you'll have +3 to attack and damage and used 2 of your 4 judgements a day. once again +3 is equivalent to a d6 so 5d6+2 and that's after having it running 3 rounds. Lets assume a str 18, that'd be +4, so we have an equivalent now of 7d6. +7/+2 which with our bonuses from divine power and judgement is now +13/+8 (after 3 rounds) and lets also assume an 18 dex (since he's also split with str.) oh yeah and lets assume a composite Str rated bow so +17/+12 dealing the equivalent of 8d6+1. For a no save equivalent of 16d6+2 without a save if both attacks hit. not bad, but nothing I can't match with a fighter of equivalent level.

Ok, here is how the math folds out. First we have a shortbow's average damage of 3.5. Next we have the damage boost from Divine power of 3. Third to the party is the damage bonus of a magic weapon (+2) with bane added on that (+2). The bane bonus dice get an average damage of 7. Then we have your judgement adding in 6. Lastly is the +1 strength mod of a person who feels like having a decent carry capacity. This comes to a total of an avereage damage of 24.5 for one attack. Now you have 4 attacks, with three that will hit at a high chance (Rapid shot + divine power + normal shot max bab +lower bab shot). This comes to about 73.5 damage for three hits, which is the average damage of about 21d6 (forgot to include the bow's +2 magic when I did the math before...oops). Now for attack bonuses we have +3 for judgement, +2 for weapon enhance, +2 for bane enhance, +3 for Divine power, +7 for BAB, +5 from dex (gotta have a 20 dex for an archer), Rapid shot -2. This yields an attack score of +20/+20/+20/+15, which is before any other random effects or feats.


brian wamsher wrote:
lastknightleft wrote:
brian wamsher wrote:

Sorry it took so long for me to reply, I've been away from my computer for a while... now, even with the str taken away, all that does is reduce yur damage by 3/attack, reducing the effective d6's down to about 16d6, still 6 class lvls above the average sorcerer.

*edit* oah... I forgot to also state that Divine Power also Gives you the bonus to damage at +1/3lvls... which i believe is +3 damage (the same number that the strength was giving us before hand).... back up to 19d6 again...

please post a build or explain because I do not see how +3 to hit and damage is equivalent to 19d6. You've only mentioned divine power so I have nothing to work with here. You're saying that a +3 to hit and damage makes an inquisitor have the equivalent of 19d6. a d6 is average 3.5 so as far as I can see without any other relevant facts (since you've given us none) you're claiming that something that gives you the equivalent of a d6 extra damage gives you 19d6. So you can see how we find it ludicrous.

I see +2 bow, that's +2 damage, not equivalent to a d6, I see divine power for +3, so far we have +5. on top of a shortbow which would be d6 we have right now an equivalent of 2d6+2. add bane (at 10th level you only have bane) and we have 4d6+2. and you have two judgements that grant an attack or damage bonus. so you'll have +3 to attack and damage and used 2 of your 4 judgements a day. once again +3 is equivalent to a d6 so 5d6+2 and that's after having it running 3 rounds. Lets assume a str 18, that'd be +4, so we have an equivalent now of 7d6. +7/+2 which with our bonuses from divine power and judgement is now +13/+8 (after 3 rounds) and lets also assume an 18 dex (since he's also split with str.) oh yeah and lets assume a composite Str rated bow so +17/+12 dealing the equivalent of 8d6+1. For a no save equivalent of 16d6+2 without a save if both attacks hit. not bad, but nothing I can't match with a fighter of equivalent level.

Ok, here is how the math folds...

Add on Many Shot, the lvl 9 feat fo this archer, for double damage on the first shot, and Deadly aim, for +6 damage ut -2 to hit.

My build, I forgot the +2 from bane on weapon damage.

Shadow Lodge

Caineach wrote:
Doing some very simple archery builds at lvl 10 with 20 dex and str and +2 bow, I got an Inquisitor who can put out 33.5 damage per hit, 4 attacks at + 20/20/20/15 for 7 rounds

Okay, I know I'm missing something, because I can't figure out how a 10th level character can get 4 attacks.


Dragonborn3 wrote:
Caineach wrote:
Doing some very simple archery builds at lvl 10 with 20 dex and str and +2 bow, I got an Inquisitor who can put out 33.5 damage per hit, 4 attacks at + 20/20/20/15 for 7 rounds
Okay, I know I'm missing something, because I can't figure out how a 10th level character can get 4 attacks.

Probably something like Rapid Shot + Haste. Or maybe Rapid Shot + Manyshot (if you pretend that Manyshot gives two attacks).


Dragonborn3 wrote:
Caineach wrote:
Doing some very simple archery builds at lvl 10 with 20 dex and str and +2 bow, I got an Inquisitor who can put out 33.5 damage per hit, 4 attacks at + 20/20/20/15 for 7 rounds
Okay, I know I'm missing something, because I can't figure out how a 10th level character can get 4 attacks.

I screwed up a lot.

With the manyshot, I and added it as an extra attack rather than double damage to the first attack. Then I forgot about the bonus attack from Divine Power that the Inquisitor would get. He can also have manyshot at lvl 9.

That being said, its really easy to get an extra haste attack that doesn't stack with Divine Power.


Seeing this material makes me think somebody, not point at Paizo as they have a lot on their table already, could do a great new campaign setting using these classes as alternates to some of the existing ones. Using Oracles instead of clerics and druids comes immediately to mind. Would give a fantasy setting a new feel. Could even limit familiars to just witches. Have all wizards use bonded items. I am highly impressed with the work so far. I haven't been able to playtest any of this, due no time to run a game (as well as nobody in my group being interested), but I do read up on a lot of the feedback. I personally don't sweat the small stuff, as long as the class still seems fun to play.

Sczarni

Just wanting to chip in regarding the cavalier. One of my players who was using it wasn't bothered by all the changes (however he seemed a bit down when challenge got nerfed, but he was alright none the less).
However he seems very eager to use the Tactician ability, hwever since it is only oce per day he is constantly hessitant.
Looking over at other classes I don't think it would be such a bad idea to make it a rounds per day thing. It would mbe more in line with bardic music at least which would make it see more gameplay.

Just my 2cp


I'm working with an alchemist , enjoying every moment I might add, but we encountered some spectral ankle biters. At this point only the paladin had a magic weapon so I was relying on a wand of magic missle as my faithful companion, but I was curious. Do you count bombs as magic weapons? I mean they say its infused with part of your magic aura.

Because they are unable to become +y magic weapons due to their expendable nature I weas wondering if you could count them as magic weapons for purposes such as blowing up ghosts effectively?


I did remember this forum was for feed back on the classes and I'd like to give you some on the alchemist. Hopefully I'll get a few nods.
I think they should be able to make infusions without sacrificing the discovery (maybe a class feature at mid-levels?), that severly hinders their ability to contribute to the party and makes them focus much more on chucking a bomb at the enemy (which is a hell of a lot of fun but still less teamwork than I think the alchemist could do for the party.)
I do think the alchemical items should be expanded upon and maybe include poison amongst this (not entirely sure if poison already counts as an alchemical item, but giving us a buyable list would be nice.)
As for the turning spells into extracts I really think it suits the class and gives the alchemist the correct flavor. It was one of the things I liked about the class the most.
Mutagens. Ah mutagens. They are a good idea at first, but then they dont seem to get any better. I mean taking a minus two to my intellegence? Even if it does give me a plus four to strength its a heavy price for an alchemist. So I see them as more so something to help the eparty, but alas to make them effective you have to sacrifice atleast two precious discoveries to give your barbarian friend a plus six and a minus two to whatever. I mean yes this equates to him having 2 extra hp and +3 more attack and +5 to damage if hes playing his character optimally but you sacrificed 2d6 damage per round to give him it.
Your just better not every using mutagens the way they have been built because messing with your own ability scores isnt very good because again -2 ro either wisdom or intellegence effects your battle stats. Maybe give us more variety to the mutagens making them a little more bad ass like a breath weapon? I also suggest red bull literally giving you wings? I would totally sacrifice the ability score if it was a little more niffty. I think you were on the right track with feral mutagens. I like more of that.And again, making the infusion a class feature at maybe level 7 or 8 would do the class a big favor in making the alchemist a team player instead of a bomb chucker( Although I cxertianly enjoy his bomb chucking status he can certianly be a more flexible class.)
So the way I see it all is the alchemist is a great and whimsical class. I love it very much. I like the extracts I think the mutagens could use a little work but not much and the bombs are damn near perfect, and I love the idea of brewing alchemical items( and an expanded list of alchemical items would make it cooler and useful.) Great work keep on truckin'.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 4

tolentothe wrote:

I'm working with an alchemist , enjoying every moment I might add, but we encountered some spectral ankle biters. At this point only the paladin had a magic weapon so I was relying on a wand of magic missle as my faithful companion, but I was curious. Do you count bombs as magic weapons? I mean they say its infused with part of your magic aura.

Because they are unable to become +y magic weapons due to their expendable nature I weas wondering if you could count them as magic weapons for purposes such as blowing up ghosts effectively?

Yup, they could as magical attacks. Magical attacks and not affected by SR either.

Supernatural Abilities (Su):

Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability's effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells.


i do have a question hopefully someone can answer does augment summoning affect the eidolon. sorry in advance if this question has been answered before, but i could not find it anywhere

Scarab Sages

scott harris 633 wrote:
i do have a question hopefully someone can answer does augment summoning affect the eidolon. sorry in advance if this question has been answered before, but i could not find it anywhere

this has been answered before & the answer is no - it is not summoned via a spell but by a ritual so augment summoning does not work with this - besides this E does not really need it


he does as of right now.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

How so, Kraven?

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