So, I while building a tripping fighter with reach, I have run into some interesting rules questions.
Cleave allows you to make multiple attacks:
A. If I have cleave, can I use it to make trip attempts. Pretty sure this is a yes, as trip is in place of a melee attack.
B. If I have unarmed strike and a reach weapon, using cleave, do I have to use the same weapon on both opponents.
A) Trip is a Combat Maneuver that you can specifically use in place of a melee attack. So, according to the rules, yes, you can tri[ during Cleave.
B) No, you wouldn't be able to interchange a reach weapon and Unarmed damage. By your example, if you are Cleaving with say a Glaive (10ft reach) at an opponent 10 feet away...then there is no way that is within your 5ft reach for Unarmed Strikes.
Hope that helps!
Since trip says "in place of an attack." and cleave says "you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach"
Then yes you can replace the attack of the cleave with a trip.
Though cleave says "If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack"
Here is the rub is a trip considered a hit? You do not deal any damage with a trip so you cannot deal damage normally since there is none.
Even if you have great trip it states "that opponent provokes attacks of opportunity" So it would be the following AoO that you would hit the creature.
The question is can the first be a trip and if your trip is successful can you then attack again? I would rule it as no, but you could hit cleave and with the second attack trip.
A) Trip is a Combat Maneuver that you can specifically use in place of a melee attack. So, according to the rules, yes, you can tri[ during Cleave.
B) No, you wouldn't be able to interchange a reach weapon and Unarmed damage. By your example, if you are Cleaving with say a Glaive (10ft reach) at an opponent 10 feet away...then there is no way that is within your 5ft reach for Unarmed Strikes.
Hope that helps!
yes, but cleave does not state it must be with the same weapon. It says an adjacent opponent to the last one, within reach. I have both 5 ft and 10 ft reach simultaneously, but with different weapons. That is where the confusion comes in. If 1 is 5 ft away and the other is 10 ft.
Since trip says "in place of an attack." and cleave says "you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach"
Then yes you can replace the attack of the cleave with a trip.
Though cleave says "If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack"
Here is the rub is a trip considered a hit? You do not deal any damage with a trip so you cannot deal damage normally since there is none.
Even if you have great trip it states "that opponent provokes attacks of opportunity" So it would be the following AoO that you would hit the creature.The question is can the first be a trip and if your trip is successful can you then attack again? I would rule it as no, but you could hit cleave and with the second attack trip.
Deal damage as normal. Alright, I do 0 damage since trip deals no damage.
One thing to note about cleave.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.
Cleave is now a standard action, so you can't make a full round attack and then get cleaves off of every attack. You can't cleave when you charge.
So, when you cleave you are making a single attack with a specific weapon. Since the attack in additional, that implies it is with the same weapon as the original attack.
If you think about what cleave is doing, making an attack that carries through to another target, it doesn't make logical sense that you can switch weapon mid cleave.
One thing to note about cleave.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.
Cleave is now a standard action, so you can't make a full round attack and then get cleaves off of every attack. You can't cleave when you charge.
So, when you cleave you are making a single attack with a specific weapon. Since the attack in additional, that implies it is with the same weapon as the original attack.
If you think about what cleave is doing, making an attack that carries through to another target, it doesn't make logical sense that you can switch weapon mid cleave.
Yes, but all cleave says is that you can make an additional attack. It does not say it has to be with the same weapon.
Yes, but all cleave says is that you can make an additional attack. It does not say it has to be with the same weapon.One thing to note about cleave.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.
Cleave is now a standard action, so you can't make a full round attack and then get cleaves off of every attack. You can't cleave when you charge.
So, when you cleave you are making a single attack with a specific weapon. Since the attack in additional, that implies it is with the same weapon as the original attack.
If you think about what cleave is doing, making an attack that carries through to another target, it doesn't make logical sense that you can switch weapon mid cleave.
Agreed, that is the letter of the rule. I was refering to what I believe the spirit of the rule is.
Cleave does say "You can strike two adjacent foes with a single swing." I'd agree that the "single swing" indicates that it's the same weapon for both attacks.
Yes, but all cleave says is that you can make an additional attack. It does not say it has to be with the same weapon.
I also question how this would correspond to a whip tripping an opponent. You trip one guy, and does that falling guy fall into the other, causing him to fall down? Do you grab them both at the same time? What is happening :|
Agreed, that is the letter of the rule. I was refering to what I believe the spirit of the rule is.
I dont think he / she cares about the spirit of the rule.
If I had to rule it I'd say it has to be with the same weapon. I'd also say that if the weapon doesn't do damage then it's not applicable to be used with Cleave.
I'll cite 2 of the pre-requisites for the Cleave feat in this case: Str 13 and Power Attack, both of which imply that the ability to do damage is central to the Cleave feat.
Then there's the description of the feat: You can strike two adjacent foes with a single swing.
Oh, I entirely agree that it is not within the spirit of the rules to use different weapons. At the same time though, I see nothing in the letter that prevents this. Thanks for pointing out the cleave fluff though, it solidifies the spirit.
A) Trip is a Combat Maneuver that you can specifically use in place of a melee attack. So, according to the rules, yes, you can tri[ during Cleave.
B) No, you wouldn't be able to interchange a reach weapon and Unarmed damage. By your example, if you are Cleaving with say a Glaive (10ft reach) at an opponent 10 feet away...then there is no way that is within your 5ft reach for Unarmed Strikes.
Hope that helps!
yes, but cleave does not state it must be with the same weapon. It says an adjacent opponent to the last one, within reach. I have both 5 ft and 10 ft reach simultaneously, but with different weapons. That is where the confusion comes in. If 1 is 5 ft away and the other is 10 ft.
Considering how gimped cleave is now, I personally would allow it as you are correct, it does not say anymore that it has to be the same weapon.
A. If I have cleave, can I use it to make trip attempts. Pretty sure this is a yes, as trip is in place of a melee attack.
B. If I have unarmed strike and a reach weapon, using cleave, do I have to use the same weapon on both opponents.
RAW says yes to A and nothing about B.
Some GMs might say no to A and yes to B, though.So... ask your GM before playing this build.