Most of the changes in PF have been straight forward obvious improvements in the system. Even if I didn't like them, I would admit they were gameplay improvements.
That said, I still don't understand why dispel magic was nerfed so much in PF. The AoE option was removed entirely, and the targeted option is limited to removing 1 effect. As a slight buff the +10 level cap was removed.
Was it considered too much of a must have spell?
Was it to make greater dispel magic better by comparison?
Maybe because many a 3.5 combat begins with both sides hitting each other with a dispel. :)
After which everyone pauses to recalculate all of their statistics.
If both sides new the battle was coming (the party spent 10 rounds knocking down the door, or some mooks escaped to warn the BBEG, casting Dispel Magic could take considerable time, as every spell effect was checked.
After that, there was a potentially long and error prone recalculating of combat stats. ("Barkskin was dispelled, so I lose the +3 to AC." "Don't forget that your Amulet of Natural Armor +1 is now giving you a bonus.") With only one spell being lost, it's both faster to cast and there are fewer corrections to make as a result of the roll.
Maybe because many a 3.5 combat begins with both sides hitting each other with a dispel. :)After which everyone pauses to recalculate all of their statistics.
If both sides new the battle was coming (the party spent 10 rounds knocking down the door, or some mooks escaped to warn the BBEG, casting Dispel Magic could take considerable time, as every spell effect was checked.
After that, there was a potentially long and error prone recalculating of combat stats. ("Barkskin was dispelled, so I lose the +3 to AC." "Don't forget that your Amulet of Natural Armor +1 is now giving you a bonus.") With only one spell being lost, it's both faster to cast and there are fewer corrections to make as a result of the roll.
That problem still exists with greater dispel magic, so that doesn't really seem to explain it.
Greater Dispel is far less common, being a lvl 6th spell. And at lvl 6th it has some fierce competition for the slot (Disintegrate, Contingency, Flesh to Stone). The regular Dispel is pretty much a no-brainer on th 3rd level list.
Not anymore, before dispel magic was a must have IF I knew I was going up against a caster. My clerics always memorized it, but it often got converted into a cure serious once I figured out I wasn't up against a caster.
Now, I am not sure it is worth a 2nd level spell slot much less a 3rd.
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It's a bit like with 3.0 Haste, really. 3.0 Haste was so frickin' awesome that everybody had it on the list. Heck, designing a 3.0 NPC caster without Haste was a death sentence for the poor fellow.
Then came 3.5 and Haste was nerfed into much less a sensible level, and right away there came a flood of "Haste isn't worth the 3rd level now" talk. It's deja vu all over again :).
I think speed of play was a major part of the decision as well as the relative cost that dispelling all the buffs has on PCs.
Pre-battle buffing is a major aspect of PC party strength, if the BBEG can just remove all those buffs the party takes a major hit to their combat effectiveness.
By a similar token if the PCs can debuff the BBEG the first round then BBEG takes a major hit in terms of resources. Actions spent buffing in combat are pretty much pointless as your life expectancy is just a handful of rounds anyway.
A PC debuffing with dispel magic is a pretty bad option but a Cohort armed with a Dispel Magic Wand can be useful in taking down weak buffs/counterspelling.
Greater Dispel Magic opens up the option of hammering the party with and AoE dispel or really smashing a single highly buffed foe. It's useful on both sides of the fence.
Disjunction of course is when you absolutely gotta take down the buffs of the BBEG or a group of PCs.
I like that there are 3 tiers of dispel magic now and while dispel magic took a big hit it's still an okay spell.
It's a bit like 3.0 Haste, really. 3.0 Haste was some frickin' awesome that everybody had it on the list. Heck, designing a 3.0 NPC caster without Haste was a death sentence for the poor fellow.
Then came 3.5 and Haste was nerfed into much less a sensible level, and right away there came a flood of "Haste isn't worth the 3rd level now" talk. It's deja vu all over again :).
Yeah, but that lasted until you realized that the 3.5 haste effects multiple people. Without that change then 3.5 haste would not have been worth a level 3 spell slot.
Removing the level cap on DM only helps if you are caster level 11 or greater. Outside of that, the spell took a huge nerf.
Haste makes a great example. Dispel magic(a level 3 spell) is incapable of countering haste which is also a level 3 spell. At best DM can remove haste from a single target. For that matter, a greater dispel magic cannot remove cannot remove haste since haste effect 1 target / 2 levels, and greater dispel magic remove 1 buff / 4 levels.
Dispel Magic also allows you to specifically target a spell or effect after identifying it, and allow you to make your caster level check against that spell or effect's DC, which is typically a slightly easier DC to beat.
The knock on Dispel Magic is that it's only 50% effective against a level equivalent caster, and that's a big 'if' for a spellcaster that has to prepare spells to take a chance with. A spontaneous caster gets more mileage due to the spammabiltiy those types of casters get with regards to spells with variable all/nothing effects.
Dispel Magic also allows you to specifically target a spell or effect after identifying it, and allow you to make your caster level check against that spell or effect's DC, which is typically a slightly easier DC to beat.
The knock on Dispel Magic is that it's only 50% effective against a level equivalent caster, and that's a big 'if' for a spellcaster that has to prepare spells to take a chance with. A spontaneous caster gets more mileage due to the spammabiltiy those types of casters get with regards to spells with variable all/nothing effects.
Generally when I put players up against a caster BBEG, He is a level or 2 above the PCs which puts you at 40-45% chance to dispel. At least with the old dispel, the players got to roll against each spell so there was a decent chance they would get something.
It was also my counter to players who relied too much on buffs from spells over magic items. Putting a couple of level 1 wizards hiding behing the BBEG with wands of DM seems a little too cheesy for me.
Haste makes a great example. Dispel magic(a level 3 spell) is incapable of countering haste which is also a level 3 spell. At best DM can remove haste from a single target. For that matter, a greater dispel magic cannot remove cannot remove haste since haste effect 1 target / 2 levels, and greater dispel magic remove 1 buff / 4 levels.
Greater Dispel Magic can be used as an area dispel (20 ft radius burst) that can affect every creature, object, or effect in its area. It can only remove one buff per creature or object when used in this way, but it could hit every hasted creature in its area.
There are ways to counter spell effects other than Dispel Magic, it's just the most versatile, despite its unreliability.
Haste makes a great example. Dispel magic(a level 3 spell) is incapable of countering haste which is also a level 3 spell. At best DM can remove haste from a single target. For that matter, a greater dispel magic cannot remove cannot remove haste since haste effect 1 target / 2 levels, and greater dispel magic remove 1 buff / 4 levels.Greater Dispel Magic can be used as an area dispel (20 ft radius burst) that can affect every creature, object, or effect in its area. It can only remove one buff per creature or object when used in this way, but it could hit every hasted creature in its area.
There are ways to counter spell effects other than Dispel Magic, it's just the most versatile, despite its unreliability.
Ok, point taken, the AoE version functions like a dispel magic cast on each target in the area.
The problem is that in making the spell more streamlined, they made the spell more unreliable. The entire's spells effect hinges on a single die roll now. If you roll a 1 with a greater dispel magic, you just wasted a 6 level spell for nothing. If you roll a 20, you just dispelled everything.
At least with the old rules you rolled once against every effect so you have a much better chance of getting something, instead of having a huge chance of getting nothing.
Again, I usually put my players BBEG that a higher level than the player, so they are looking at a 60+% chance their GDM does nothing.
Ok, point taken, the AoE version functions like a dispel magic cast on each target in the area.
The problem is that in making the spell more streamlined, they made the spell more unreliable. If you roll a 1 with a greater dispel magic, you just wasted a 6 level spell for nothing. If you roll a 20, you just dispelled everything. At least with the old rules you rolled once against every effect so you have a much better chance of getting something, instead of having a huge chance of getting nothing.
Yeah, you pay for that versatility (3.5 had a feat where you could take 10 on caster level checks).
As was pointed out in the discussion for Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards, Dispel Magic is a crap-shoot, and not highly recommended for Wizards as a result. I mostly play Sorcerers, who get significantly more from this spell, so I view it a little more favorably.
Ok, point taken, the AoE version functions like a dispel magic cast on each target in the area.
The problem is that in making the spell more streamlined, they made the spell more unreliable. If you roll a 1 with a greater dispel magic, you just wasted a 6 level spell for nothing. If you roll a 20, you just dispelled everything. At least with the old rules you rolled once against every effect so you have a much better chance of getting something, instead of having a huge chance of getting nothing.
Yeah, you pay for that versatility (3.5 had a feat where you could take 10 on caster level checks).
As was pointed out in the discussion for Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards, Dispel Magic is a crap-shoot, and not highly recommended for Wizards as a result. I mostly play Sorcerers, who get significantly more from this spell, so I view it a little more favorably.
Meanwhile the BBEG 2 apprentices are hiding in cubby's in the back of the room hitting the PC with dispel magic from wands through murder holes(huge perception penalty with a huge AC cover bonus).
What is true for the wizard is also true for the cleric. The spell is way to situational(mostly useless against non-casters), too unreliable(40-60% chance of doing nothing), and too limited(can only remove an effect from a single creature) to justify it being a 3rd level spell. Even on a sorcerer, you have much better things to be doing with your action. I am not sure I would waste my action casting DM when i could be using lightning bolt or fireball.
Haste makes a great example. Dispel magic(a level 3 spell) is incapable of countering haste which is also a level 3 spell. At best DM can remove haste from a single target. For that matter, a greater dispel magic cannot remove cannot remove haste since haste effect 1 target / 2 levels, and greater dispel magic remove 1 buff / 4 levels.Greater Dispel Magic can be used as an area dispel (20 ft radius burst) that can affect every creature, object, or effect in its area. It can only remove one buff per creature or object when used in this way, but it could hit every hasted creature in its area.
There are ways to counter spell effects other than Dispel Magic, it's just the most versatile, despite its unreliability.
Ok, point taken, the AoE version functions like a dispel magic cast on each target in the area.
The problem is that in making the spell more streamlined, they made the spell more unreliable. The entire's spells effect hinges on a single die roll now. If you roll a 1 with a greater dispel magic, you just wasted a 6 level spell for nothing. If you roll a 20, you just dispelled everything.
At least with the old rules you rolled once against every effect so you have a much better chance of getting something, instead of having a huge chance of getting nothing.
Again, I usually put my players BBEG that a higher level than the player, so they are looking at a 60+% chance their GDM does nothing.
You're also missing that dispel magic doesn't have a caster level cap any more. In 3.5, dispel magic was capped at CL 10, meaning it was useless in higher level play. "Quickened dispel magic? Why bother, it won't remove anything!" In Pathfinder, dispel magic can only remove one effect, but you add your full caster level to it, so it remains equally viable at all levels.
You're also missing that dispel magic doesn't have a caster level cap any more. In 3.5, dispel magic was capped at CL 10, meaning it was useless in higher level play. "Quickened dispel magic? Why bother, it won't remove anything!" In Pathfinder, dispel magic can only remove one effect, but you add your full caster level to it, so it remains equally viable at all levels.
I did note that. It also makes dispel magic a little more viable for bards. In 3.5, by the time bards got access to dispel magic they were almost level 10 already.
Quickened dispel magic uses a level 7 spell slot(level 6 for unversalist wizards), greater dispel magic is level 6. Quickened dispel magic seems like ever more of a waste.
How is quickened dispel magic more of a waste than it was in 3.5? In 3.5, it wouldn't have any effect at all. In Pathfinder, it lets you do your primary job (save-or-die/save-or-suck) and also debuff at the same time. It's not as powerful as greater dispel magic, but that is true of any Quickened spell compared to any spell that is naturally of a similar level. The point of Quicken is that it uses a resource that most spellcasters can't make any other use of, that being a swift action. Casting two spells in one round is a huge advantage, even if one of the spells is much weaker than the other.
Losing AoE does hurt flexibility, sure, but the single target effect is just as powerful as before.
As described, it is less powerful than before, in that it can only dispel a single spell (except in the case where there is only one spell to remove).
Dispelling just one spell isn't really my issue with it. It's dispelling 1/2 of a spell, or 1/3 of a spell. It just seems off. It would be better perhaps if it would still check each spell, until taking off one (similar to the area dispel before).
On the other hand - it's still a powerful tool. What's better - giving your opponent a -4 to Str, or dispelling a Bull's Strength? With saving throws vs. caster level checks, the caster level checks are usually easier. Also no Spell Resistance to deal with. And it *is* very nice that it doesn't become useless at higher levels.
Honestly, we very rarely used dispelling in 3.5. That may or may not change now.
Quickened dispel magic uses a level 7 spell slot(level 6 for unversalist wizards)
Um... level 6 for Universalist? How's that?
Meanwhile the BBEG 2 apprentices are hiding in cubby's in the back of the room hitting the PC with dispel magic from wands through murder holes(huge perception penalty with a huge AC cover bonus).
What is true for the wizard is also true for the cleric. The spell is way to situational(mostly useless against non-casters), too unreliable(40-60% chance of doing nothing), and too limited(can only remove an effect from a single creature) to justify it being a 3rd level spell. Even on a sorcerer, you have much better things to be doing with your action. I am not sure I would waste my action casting DM when i could be using lightning bolt or fireball.
The BBEG's 2 apprentices are using 11250gp per wand to make those dispel attempts with a caster level of 5. Seems like a waste of resources for the price.
Dispel Magic isn't really a combat spell anyway. Dispel Magic's best use may be against ongoing magical effects outside of combat or the removal of traps and battlefield condition effect spells.
As far as countering Haste, use Slow, which is also one of the most efficient/effective debuffs in the game.
If you're saying Dispel Magic's an inefficient combat spell, I hear ya and wouldn't recommend using it as such. That does not detract from its utility in a variety of other situations, or make it ineffective as a 3rd level spell.
Quickened dispel magic uses a level 7 spell slot(level 6 for unversalist wizards)Um... level 6 for Universalist? How's that?
Sorry, A level 14 universalist could cast a quickened dispel magic once per day, and they would use a level 3 spell slot. Judges can give me a deduction for skimming abilities and not reading them carefully.
My original point stands, that would be a colossal waste of a universalist's special ability.
Meanwhile the BBEG 2 apprentices are hiding in cubby's in the back of the room hitting the PC with dispel magic from wands through murder holes(huge perception penalty with a huge AC cover bonus).
What is true for the wizard is also true for the cleric. The spell is way to situational(mostly useless against non-casters), too unreliable(40-60% chance of doing nothing), and too limited(can only remove an effect from a single creature) to justify it being a 3rd level spell. Even on a sorcerer, you have much better things to be doing with your action. I am not sure I would waste my action casting DM when i could be using lightning bolt or fireball.
The BBEG's 2 apprentices are using 11250gp per wand to make those dispel attempts with a caster level of 5. Seems like a waste of resources for the price.
Dispel Magic isn't really a combat spell anyway. Dispel Magic's best use may be against ongoing magical effects outside of combat or the removal of traps and battlefield condition effect spells.
As far as countering Haste, use Slow, which is also one of the most efficient/effective debuffs in the game.
If you're saying Dispel Magic's an inefficient combat spell, I hear ya and wouldn't recommend using it as such. That does not detract from its utility in a variety of other situations, or make it ineffective as a 3rd level spell.
That is assuming the wands have the full 50 charges. Wands with less than 50 charges are worth less.
What I am saying is basically this. If Dispel Magic were a level 2 spell, I can't seen how it would be game breaking in anyway way.
Quick note:
There is also the fact that if you know which spell you are trying to dispel you can dispel against the save DC for that spell instead of against the caster level +11.
How is quickened dispel magic more of a waste than it was in 3.5? In 3.5, it wouldn't have any effect at all. In Pathfinder, it lets you do your primary job (save-or-die/save-or-suck) and also debuff at the same time. It's not as powerful as greater dispel magic, but that is true of any Quickened spell compared to any spell that is naturally of a similar level. The point of Quicken is that it uses a resource that most spellcasters can't make any other use of, that being a swift action. Casting two spells in one round is a huge advantage, even if one of the spells is much weaker than the other.
Unless you were facing a level 20+ caster, 3.5 dispel magic still had a chance to do something. If there were multiple effects in play, you go a roll on each one.
In 3.5:
A level 12 caster against a level 15 caster with 5 effects up. You need a 15 or better to dispel an effect. That is a 30% chance to dispel. You would have to roll a 14 or less 5 times in a row for the spell to do nothing. There is only a 16.8% that you fail all 5 rolls, thus you have an 83.2% chance of dispelling at least one effect. Greater Dispel Magic would need a 13 or better, and thus you would only have a 7.8% chance of all 5 rolls failing. 92.2% chance that GDM would dispel something.
In PF:
A level 12 caster against a level 15 caster with 5 effects up. You cast Dispel Magic or Greater Dispel Magic, you have a 60% chance of it doing nothing.
Quick note:
There is also the fact that if you know which spell you are trying to dispel you can dispel against the save DC for that spell instead of against the caster level +11.
Yeah, but up until around level 10, the save DC will most likely be higher than the caster level check.
A level 5 Human wizard would have an int of around 20(15 + stat increase + magic item + racial bonus). So his DC on a level 3 spell would be 18, the caster level check would be 16.
A level 10 Human wizard casting a level 5 spell would have a DC of around 21, which is the same as the caster level check.
Quick note:
There is also the fact that if you know which spell you are trying to dispel you can dispel against the save DC for that spell instead of against the caster level +11.
Yeah, but up until around level 10, the save DC will most likely be higher than the caster level check.
A level 5 Human wizard would have an int of around 20(15 + stat increase + magic item + racial bonus). So his DC on a level 3 spell would be 18, the caster level check would be 16.
A level 10 Human wizard casting a level 5 spell would have a DC of around 21, which is the same as the caster level check.
It also depends on the spell you are trying to dispel...
For example dispelling a mirror image from an 13th level caster by a 10th level caster (this happens in a couple of the AP's) would be difficult on the caster level check... but dispelling against the save DC would be much easier. The option is going to be more useful for PC's since they generally end up being lower level than the casters they face.
Quick note:
There is also the fact that if you know which spell you are trying to dispel you can dispel against the save DC for that spell instead of against the caster level +11.
Yeah, but up until around level 10, the save DC will most likely be higher than the caster level check.
A level 5 Human wizard would have an int of around 20(15 + stat increase + magic item + racial bonus). So his DC on a level 3 spell would be 18, the caster level check would be 16.
A level 10 Human wizard casting a level 5 spell would have a DC of around 21, which is the same as the caster level check.
It also depends on the spell you are trying to dispel...
For example dispelling a mirror image from an 13th level caster by a 10th level caster (this happens in a couple of the AP's) would be difficult on the caster level check... but dispelling against the save DC would be much easier. The option is going to be more useful for PC's since they generally end up being lower level than the casters they face.
As I said up until level 10. After level 10, the DC is most likely lower than the caster level. bonuses from int modifiers generally start out at +4 or +5, but they scale slower than caster level.
A level 5 wizard casting mirror image, the caster level is lower. If the wizard has an int mod of +4, the DC is higher.
A level 15 wizard casting mirror image, the DC is most likely lower. The wizard needs an int mod of +14 for the DC to be higher.