Proposed new feat - Flash Draw


Homebrew and House Rules


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber

Quick Draw is a very useful feat that lets you ready your weapon quickly...however this is only on your characters turn. What I propose a feat called Flash Draw that would allow you to draw a weapon as a immediate action and would require Quick Draw as a pre-req. This would allow you to draw a weapon in reaction to any enemy on that enemies turn. It would allow you to ready another weapon immediately after being disarmed. It would also allow you to ready an action to attack an enemy that comes close, but to keep your weapon sheathed so as to not appear ready to attack.

Flash Draw (Combat)
You can draw weapons so fast it dazzles the eyes.

Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +5, Quick Draw
Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a immediate action.

Is there anything that immediately comes to mind that might suggest this should not be advisable or otherwise "broken"? Should the proposed BAB requirement be lower?

I'm thinking of creating a serious of feats that would use Quick Draw as a base. Flash Draw would be the first and there would be at least one more that would allow you to draw objects such as flasks and alchemical objects.


I'd also like to see something more to that feat. For example:

Flash Draw (Combat)
No matter when the enemy strikes, you're always ready

Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +5, Quick Draw
Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a immediate action. Also, you cannot be surprised (You're not flat-footed on the surprise round). Rogue of four levels higher than you can ignore this rule.


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber
Jonne Karila wrote:

I'd also like to see something more to that feat. For example:

Flash Draw (Combat)
No matter when the enemy strikes, you're always ready

Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +5, Quick Draw
Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a immediate action. Also, you cannot be surprised (You're not flat-footed on the surprise round). Rogue of four levels higher than you can ignore this rule.

An interesting thought... however that is getting into the realm of class abilities and outside the realm of feats methinks.

Additional wording could be added to allow you to draw your weapon even when flat-footed. Extreme training allowing you to act without thinking even when you are surprised.

Contributor

{You can draw weapons so fast it dazzles the eyes.}

This flavor text leads me to think the feat somehow gives an opponent the dazzled condition; I'd drop it.

But a 2nd-tier feat that lets you draw a weapon as an immediate action is pretty sweet, and not game-breaking. I'd probably fold the "even when surprised" into that, as each of those benefits isn't frequent enough to merit a 2nd-tier feat. After all, the feat doesn't let you take any other actions (such as AOOs) in the surprise round.


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber
Sean K Reynolds wrote:

{You can draw weapons so fast it dazzles the eyes.}

This flavor text leads me to think the feat somehow gives an opponent the dazzled condition; I'd drop it.

But a 2nd-tier feat that lets you draw a weapon as an immediate action is pretty sweet, and not game-breaking. I'd probably fold the "even when surprised" into that, as each of those benefits isn't frequent enough to merit a 2nd-tier feat. After all, the feat doesn't let you take any other actions (such as AOOs) in the surprise round.

Hmmm... ok.

Flash Draw (Combat)
Due to intense training the quickness of your draw now comes without thought.

Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +5, Quick Draw
Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a immediate action. You can take this immediate action even when you are surprised and flat footed.

More like that?

Also, I'm glad you like the idea. I've long thought that there could be a great feat tree you could do with quick draw as a base. WotC released the "Flick of the wrist" feat in Complete Warrior that would allow you to make an opponent flat-footed against one attack. I'm just sad we have not seen any more feats along this vein.

I'll admit ... I am somewhat influenced by "Battou-jutsu" from the anime Rurouni Kenshin. I've seen fan made prestige classes and the like that attempt to copy all the powers from that style, but I feel a few feats could make the "simple" act of drawing your weapon a little cooler. :)


Great idea! The "you can draw a weapon in a flash" thing is very flavorful. The prereqs look fine as is, to me.


Maybe add an Iai-do feat where you can catch an enemy without his dex bonus to AC when you use your flash draw with your first attack in a fight.


I like the idea of readying against a charge (with a spear, etc.) with no weapon in hand.

Contributor

I like it. :)

(My rogue/fighter/cleric in Monte's Ptolus campaign loved Quick Draw!)

The Exchange

Very interesting.


Maybe I'm reading too much into this or missing something obvious, but.. the only reason I can see for needing to draw your weapon when it isn't your turn is to make a sudden Attack of Opportunity when you weren't prepared.. So why not change the prerequisite just a little? Here's my suggestion:

Flash Draw (Combat)
Due to intense training the quickness of your draw now comes without thought.

Prerequisite: Combat Reflexes, Quick Draw
Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a immediate action. You can take this immediate action even when you are surprised and flat footed.

I suppose that would have a bit of an effect on what sorts of characters could use it, as not everyone takes Reflexes.. but flavor-wise it seems to fit with what you're trying to do and makes sense to me. (Personally, I've always liked reflexes, but I tend to be very tactical in combat and use AoO's to my advantage wherever possible.)

Although I suppose a great deal of it hinges on whether or not there's something I'm missing as to why you'd need your weapon in your hand on a turn other than your own.


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber
Aratex wrote:

Maybe I'm reading too much into this or missing something obvious, but.. the only reason I can see for needing to draw your weapon when it isn't your turn is to make a sudden Attack of Opportunity when you weren't prepared.. So why not change the prerequisite just a little? Here's my suggestion:

Flash Draw (Combat)
Due to intense training the quickness of your draw now comes without thought.

Prerequisite: Combat Reflexes, Quick Draw
Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a immediate action. You can take this immediate action even when you are surprised and flat footed.

I suppose that would have a bit of an effect on what sorts of characters could use it, as not everyone takes Reflexes.. but flavor-wise it seems to fit with what you're trying to do and makes sense to me. (Personally, I've always liked reflexes, but I tend to be very tactical in combat and use AoO's to my advantage wherever possible.)

Although I suppose a great deal of it hinges on whether or not there's something I'm missing as to why you'd need your weapon in your hand on a turn other than your own.

Well... as I mentioned it allows you to ready an action to attack a foe, and not appear to be ready as you can draw your weapon just prior to when you make your readied attack. It also allows you to draw a replacement weapon immediately after you have been disarmed. As others point out... you could also ready a pole-arm or other reach weapon right before an enemy would provoke a AoO.

Outside the rules aspect and as part of the role-play aspect, if you are confronting a individual who draws a weapon even on your "turn" when you suspect he should be caught unawares, it could be unsettling.


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber
KaeYoss wrote:
Maybe add an Iai-do feat where you can catch an enemy without his dex bonus to AC when you use your flash draw with your first attack in a fight.

Hmm... perhaps we could just dust off the Flick of the Wrist feat located in Complete Warrior. It already does this with a light weapon. Maybe with a little judicious rewording we can create something that will work.


I've eliminated Quick Draw and Rapid Reload, and instead allow all manner of similar tasks by setting a Sleight of Hand (or untrained Dex check) DC. Part of my quest to beef up other skills until characters take things other than just Perception, Acrobatics, and Knowledge.


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber
Kirth Gersen wrote:
I've eliminated Quick Draw and Rapid Reload, and instead allow all manner of similar tasks by setting a Sleight of Hand (or untrained Dex check) DC. Part of my quest to beef up other skills until characters take things other than just Perception, Acrobatics, and Knowledge.

I've never had that problem in my games. My players know that I tend to include a wide range of activities in my campaigns so they never know what skills they'll need.


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber

@Aratex

Another thought... one of the reasons I tied it to BAB is because it sets a certain level of power required and thus experience and training required before you can pick it up.

I'm not sure if the added feat tax of requiring combat reflexes is really needed.


Lokie wrote:
I've never had that problem in my games. My players know that I tend to include a wide range of activities in my campaigns so they never know what skills they'll need.

Depends on the players; some are more "optimizing-minded" than others. I can put in a zillion uses for Appraise (I do, in fact), but they'll still read the rules and say "no, way, everyone should max out Perception." So I actually rewrote the skills rules to even the load a bit.

You've got to admit, it's a trifle absurd that for 1 rank/level, you can be an expert high jumper, long jumper, gymnast, tightrope walker, and acrobat... but it costs double that if you want to be able to sing and play the guitar.


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Lokie wrote:
I've never had that problem in my games. My players know that I tend to include a wide range of activities in my campaigns so they never know what skills they'll need.

Depends on the players; some are more "optimizing-minded" than others. I can put in a zillion uses for Appraise (I do, in fact), but they'll still read the rules and say "no, way, everyone should max out Perception." So I actually rewrote the skills rules to even the load a bit.

You've got to admit, it's a trifle absurd that for 1 rank/level, you can be an expert high jumper, long jumper, gymnast, tightrope walker, and acrobat... but it costs double that if you want to be able to sing and play the guitar.

Gymnasts and Acrobats are nearly one and the same... and the general athletic ability they possess lends itself well towards long and high jumps. Tightrope walking mostly just requires a fine sense of balance which both Gymnasts and Acrobats possess.

However... vocal talent vs. trained hands are pretty much nothing alike aside from they fact that they both can produce music. ;)

I understand what you are saying though.


Lokie wrote:

Gymnasts and Acrobats are nearly one and the same... and the general athletic ability they possess lends itself well towards long and high jumps. Tightrope walking mostly just requires a fine sense of balance which both Gymnasts and Acrobats possess.

However... vocal talent vs. trained hands are pretty much nothing alike aside from they fact that they both can produce music. ;)

Put it this way: I was a long jumper in High School; made it to the state finals. I can't do handsprings or those olympic rings things to save my life, however. My brother, on the flip side, plays piano, cello, bass, guitar, drums and can sing and write songs -- he's done all of them professionally at at least one point -- and he claims they're all alike, after the first one.


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Lokie wrote:

Gymnasts and Acrobats are nearly one and the same... and the general athletic ability they possess lends itself well towards long and high jumps. Tightrope walking mostly just requires a fine sense of balance which both Gymnasts and Acrobats possess.

However... vocal talent vs. trained hands are pretty much nothing alike aside from they fact that they both can produce music. ;)

Put it this way: I was a long jumper in High School; made it to the state finals. I can't do handsprings or those olympic rings things to save my life, however. My brother, on the flip side, plays piano, cello, bass, guitar, drums and can sing and write songs -- he's done all of them professionally at at least one point -- and he claims they're all alike, after the first one.

Some people are just gifted with more talent than others...

I've a friend who is a Registered Nurse, can build professional furniture, draws well (never took a class), writes novels/poetry, and is programming his own website code for the furniture business he is putting together. (All of which is mostly self taught.)

I myself have no particular talents aside from the fact that I can read 1,000+ page books in one sitting and am only mildly athletic (played a little soccer and practiced a little martial arts). Also, I am decent enough at DMing that my friends continue to play in any campaigns I run. As far as I know, I have no musical talent past being "ok" at whistling.

Perhaps in your brothers case... he spent the majority of his skill points on performance skills... maybe he has bardic talent.

Perhaps in game parlance your ability to long jump is specifically tied to your movement speed and you are getting a bonus on jump from those two Fleet feats you took and is not actually tied to acrobatic skill. Maybe you are long jumping under 3.5 rules. :)

I understand what you meant about the "cost" in skill points for acrobatics vs. performance though. I personally never had that problem with my players.


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber

Getting back on topic...

Quick Retrieve -
You have trained extensively in retrieving specific gear under pressure.

Prerequisites: Quick Draw
Benefit: You can now retrieve alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands as a free action instead of a move action.


Lokie wrote:
It would also allow you to ready an action to attack an enemy that comes close, but to keep your weapon sheathed so as to not appear ready to attack.

You can do this one with Quick Draw.


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber
Jonathon Kruger wrote:
Lokie wrote:
It would also allow you to ready an action to attack an enemy that comes close, but to keep your weapon sheathed so as to not appear ready to attack.
You can do this one with Quick Draw.

To quote the PRD... I've made the relevant text bold.

PRD wrote:

Quick Draw (Combat)

You can draw weapons faster than most.

Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action.

A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow).

Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be drawn quickly using this feat.

Normal: Without this feat, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement. Without this feat, you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action.


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber

A slight flavor text change...

Quick Retrieve -
You have drilled extensively in carrying specific gear and retrieving it under pressure.

Prerequisites: Quick Draw
Benefit: You can now retrieve alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands as a free action instead of a move action.


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber

Quick Strike (Combat)
You have learned how to draw your weapon and attack so fast as to catch your opponent off guard.

Prerequisites: Quick Draw, Dex 17
Benefit: Whenever you draw your weapon using quick draw and make a melee attack with it in the same round, your opponent is denied its dexterity modifier to AC for the purposes of that attack. You may only use this feat once per round and only once per opponent in any given combat encounter.

Special: If you have the cleave feat, you may use it in with Quick Strike to attack multiple foes.


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber

Now for the last... this feat is a little more difficult for me to find the wording for. I want to make sure it is clear, yet not overly wordy.

Flash Strike (Combat)
Your extreme training now allows you to draw and strike in the blink of an eye even under the most adverse conditions.

Prerequisites: Dex 19, Quick Draw, Quick Strike, Flash Draw
Benefit: Because of extremely difficult training that has pushed you to surpass your limits you can now make a single attack even when it is not your turn. You can draw a weapon and make a single attack as an Immediate action. You may only use this feat once per encounter.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Lokie wrote:

Gymnasts and Acrobats are nearly one and the same... and the general athletic ability they possess lends itself well towards long and high jumps. Tightrope walking mostly just requires a fine sense of balance which both Gymnasts and Acrobats possess.

However... vocal talent vs. trained hands are pretty much nothing alike aside from they fact that they both can produce music. ;)

Put it this way: I was a long jumper in High School; made it to the state finals. I can't do handsprings or those olympic rings things to save my life, however. My brother, on the flip side, plays piano, cello, bass, guitar, drums and can sing and write songs -- he's done all of them professionally at at least one point -- and he claims they're all alike, after the first one.

your brother obviously hasa higher intelligence modifier ;), maybe he has been leveling in secret ?


sounds sort of like flick of the wrist. I've always loved that one it is so iajustu-ish and perfect for rogues


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber
Icarus Pherae wrote:
sounds sort of like flick of the wrist. I've always loved that one it is so iajustu-ish and perfect for rogues

Quick Strike is indeed based on Flick of the Wrist. I modified it slightly however as what I'm creating is not based on subtle hand movements and so no prerequisite of slight of hand is required.

One of the points of the points of this series of feats is to create iajutsu-ish type of feel that anyone can pick up with enough effort.


Jonathon Kruger wrote:
Lokie wrote:
It would also allow you to ready an action to attack an enemy that comes close, but to keep your weapon sheathed so as to not appear ready to attack.
You can do this one with Quick Draw.

Perhaps - I'm not sure if there is a rule about performing free actions when you take your readied action.


Good idea on the original feat. My only suggestion would be to lower the BAB requirement to +4 -- since there's no core feat that has +5 (only +4 or +6).


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber
Majuba wrote:
Jonathon Kruger wrote:
Lokie wrote:
It would also allow you to ready an action to attack an enemy that comes close, but to keep your weapon sheathed so as to not appear ready to attack.
You can do this one with Quick Draw.
Perhaps - I'm not sure if there is a rule about performing free actions when you take your readied action.

As far as I can tell... free actions can only be taken on your turn. The only action that can be taken on another turn besides your own are immediate actions.

I must have been half awake when I answered Jonathon Kruger... for some reason I got the impression he was responding to the latest feat I posted for drawing items. Unless he edited...


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber
meabolex wrote:
Good idea on the original feat. My only suggestion would be to lower the BAB requirement to +4 -- since there's no core feat that has +5 (only +4 or +6).

I'm actually considering changing the prerequisites on the original feat. I'm starting to feel that perhaps BAB isn't really required and perhaps I just need to include DEX 17 instead.

Flash Draw (Combat)
Due to intense training the quickness of your draw now comes without thought.

Prerequisites: DEX 17, Quick Draw
Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a immediate action. You can take this immediate action even when you are surprised and flat footed.


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber

One more... just for fun! :)

Quick Throw (Combat)
You can draw and throw a weapon so quickly as to make it nearly impossible to dodge.

Prerequisites: Dex 19, Quick Draw, Quick Strike
Benefits: You can draw and make an attack with a ranged weapon. The target of this attack is denied their dexterity bonus to AC.


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber

Giving the thread a bump ... hoping for more feedback.


If you're happy with it, feel free to submit it to the Pathfinder Database.


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber
Pathfinder Database Pimp wrote:
If you're happy with it, feel free to submit it to the Pathfinder Database.

I'll consider it. I've really only gotten feedback on the first feat though.

Sovereign Court

Maybe it's just me, but I'm liking all of them except Flash Strike. To me, it almost seems too situational. Sorta like the 'oh crap he's about to strike me down and I just happen to have a free hand to do this and hope I can manage to take him out before he does it to me, ala the movies'. Don't misunderstand, I'm not trying to slam on you or anything. I think this type of thing would be awesome to pull off, and would make for an amazing scene, but it seems to have the least opportunity for use. I love the rest of them, especially how they're overlapping for more than just rogues, and especially for those who take Weapon Finesse.

Then again, I can see Flash Strike being a first turn thing also, if the baddy goes before you. However, in this case, or the other I mentioned, really, I'd say it'd flavor better if it had the Dex taken from AC thing going on, since it's almost like catching them unawares when they think they've got you dead to rights. So maybe it's not that I don't like it, just that I had some ideas on adjusting it.

Sorry if you took offense. It was not my intent.


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber
Runnetib wrote:

Maybe it's just me, but I'm liking all of them except Flash Strike. To me, it almost seems too situational. Sorta like the 'oh crap he's about to strike me down and I just happen to have a free hand to do this and hope I can manage to take him out before he does it to me, ala the movies'. Don't misunderstand, I'm not trying to slam on you or anything. I think this type of thing would be awesome to pull off, and would make for an amazing scene, but it seems to have the least opportunity for use. I love the rest of them, especially how they're overlapping for more than just rogues, and especially for those who take Weapon Finesse.

Then again, I can see Flash Strike being a first turn thing also, if the baddy goes before you. However, in this case, or the other I mentioned, really, I'd say it'd flavor better if it had the Dex taken from AC thing going on, since it's almost like catching them unawares when they think they've got you dead to rights. So maybe it's not that I don't like it, just that I had some ideas on adjusting it.

Sorry if you took offense. It was not my intent.

Not sure why I would take offense at anything you've said... and I'm glad you like the majority of the feats.

As to Flash Strike, I was wanting to try something a little different.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

While you're at it you should add the ability to quickly sheath weapons (and other items) to one of those feats. It's probably too weak to be a feat by itself. Heck, might be worth adding to all the feats that have quick draw as a prerequisite.


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber

Hmmm...

A very good suggestion. Perhaps I should create a "Draw Training" flavor feat. This feat could then be added as a prerequisite to unlock the rest of the feat tree.

Draw Training (Combat)
The training time you have spent repeatedly drawing, re-sheathing, and drawing your weapon over and over has granted you special skill.

Prerequisites: Quick Draw
Benefits: You gain the ability to sheath your weapons without provoking attacks of opportunity. Also, whenever you start a encounter without a weapon drawn, your quickness at drawing gives you a +1 bonus on initiative and +1 to your to hit for your first attack of that encounter.


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber

Figure I need a "master list" so here they are compiled in no particular order.

Consolidated List:
Draw Training (Combat)
The training time you have spent repeatedly drawing, re-sheathing, and drawing your weapon over and over has granted you special skill.

Prerequisites: Quick Draw
Benefits: You gain the ability to sheath your weapons without provoking attacks of opportunity. Also, whenever you start a encounter without a weapon drawn, your quickness at drawing gives you a +1 bonus on initiative and +1 to your to hit for your first attack of that encounter.

Flash Draw (Combat)
Due to intense training the quickness of your draw now comes without thought.

Prerequisites: DEX 17, Quick Draw, Draw Training
Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a immediate action. You can take this immediate action even when you are surprised and flat footed.

Quick Throw (Combat)
You can draw and throw a weapon so quickly as to make it nearly impossible to dodge.

Prerequisites: Dex 19, Quick Draw, Draw Training, Quick Strike
Benefits: You can draw and make an attack with a ranged weapon. The target of this attack is denied their dexterity bonus to AC.

Flash Strike (Combat)
Your extreme training now allows you to draw and strike in the blink of an eye even under the most adverse conditions.

Prerequisites: Dex 19, Quick Draw, Draw Training, Quick Strike, Flash Draw
Benefit: Because of extremely difficult training that has pushed you to surpass your limits you can now make a single attack even when it is not your turn. You can draw a weapon and make a single attack as an Immediate action. You may only use this feat once per encounter.

Quick Retrieve -
You have drilled extensively in carrying specific gear and retrieving it under pressure.

Prerequisites: Quick Draw, Draw Training
Benefit: You can now retrieve alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands as a free action instead of a move action.

Quick Strike (Combat)
You have learned how to draw your weapon and attack so fast as to catch your opponent off guard.

Prerequisites: Quick Draw, Dex 17, Draw Training
Benefit: Whenever you draw your weapon using quick draw and make a melee attack with it in the same round, your opponent is denied its dexterity modifier to AC for the purposes of that attack. You may only use this feat once per round and only once per opponent in any given combat encounter.

Special: If you have the cleave feat, you may use it in with Quick Strike to attack multiple foes.


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber

Draw Training (Combat)
The training time you have spent repeatedly drawing, re-sheathing, and drawing your weapon over and over has granted you special skill.

Prerequisites: BAB +1
Benefits: You gain the ability to sheath your weapons without provoking attacks of opportunity. Also, whenever you start a encounter without a weapon drawn, your skill at drawing gives you a +1 bonus on initiative and +1 attack bonus for your first melee attack of that encounter.

Edited for clarity and removed the prerequisite of Quick Draw. I figure anyone can repeatedly draw and sheath a weapon and I like the flavor of the feat being more of a companion feat to Quick Draw. Edited again to add BAB +1 as prereq.


BAB +1 would be a good prerequisite for Draw training


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber
Jonne Karila wrote:
BAB +1 would be a good prerequisite for Draw training

A good suggestion. It is a "martial" feat after all. :)


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber

Ok... So I believe I've completed this feat tree. I cannot think of anything else that would fit. I'm open to suggestions though.

I do have another idea already... but I'll create a new thread for that.

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